about seven years ago we bought a raymarine autopilot and a garmin chartplottter. now that a component of our autopilot has died, rendering the whole expensive unit useless, raymarine's response has been 'we no longer deal with your unit; how sad for you, now go away.' garmin, on the other hand, continues to update its software with reasonable and polite service. you are warned.
Raymarine, again
- Thread starter mortyd
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I second that. I've owned Raymarine and Garmin products for many years and believe both are excellent products, until you need service. Garmin's tech support and service department run circles around Raymarine - at least in my experience.
Re: raymaine, again
excellent products? would you like to uninstall the ninety percent of my useless st4000marque2 non-autopilot still attached to my boat, including my expensive navtech housing that didn't stop the water coming into the face plate. after that you can search for my excellent 1964 alfa that never ran.
excellent products? would you like to uninstall the ninety percent of my useless st4000marque2 non-autopilot still attached to my boat, including my expensive navtech housing that didn't stop the water coming into the face plate. after that you can search for my excellent 1964 alfa that never ran.
Re: raymaine, again
Gee, morty, you're not running out and getting one of those new FIATS?
I agree with you, not much good to be said these days about RMs service, kinda like Xantrex products these days.
Garmin, however, has it's own issues: http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f13/garmin-wont-support-unlocking-old-device-charts-90736.html
morty, if you want a simple working AP, and you don't want to "interface" then have you considered www.cptautopilot.com?
Gee, morty, you're not running out and getting one of those new FIATS?
I agree with you, not much good to be said these days about RMs service, kinda like Xantrex products these days.
Garmin, however, has it's own issues: http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f13/garmin-wont-support-unlocking-old-device-charts-90736.html
morty, if you want a simple working AP, and you don't want to "interface" then have you considered www.cptautopilot.com?
Morty,
What has failed? The wheel drive is 100% replaceable. The flux gate is 100% replaceable. The rudder transducer is 100% replaceable. The course computer/display can be replaced with a display and new course computer. The whole system is modular..
Garmin discontinues support on older products sooner than Raymarine in many cases. A few weeks ago I fixed an OLD Autohelm autopilot from the mid 90's. The flux gate compass had crapped out. I ordered a new one from Raymarine and it saved the owner about 3k... I call that pretty darn good service on a product that was 18 years old....
What has failed? The wheel drive is 100% replaceable. The flux gate is 100% replaceable. The rudder transducer is 100% replaceable. The course computer/display can be replaced with a display and new course computer. The whole system is modular..
Garmin discontinues support on older products sooner than Raymarine in many cases. A few weeks ago I fixed an OLD Autohelm autopilot from the mid 90's. The flux gate compass had crapped out. I ordered a new one from Raymarine and it saved the owner about 3k... I call that pretty darn good service on a product that was 18 years old....
Re: raymaine, again
my control head got waterlogged and died. my waterproof navtech case was one big waste of money since raymarine couldn't have been bothered to make the front plate water resistant. from the amount of used parts available on ebay - all except control heads - i'm not alone. what has garmin discontinued that left customers up the creek? i just had my g2blue chip updated. i guess you're a raymarine fan and i ain't. it all depends who's on the short end. of all the parts on my boat, only my raymarine is now useless and they couldn't care less. wanna buy a nice waterproof navtech housing with nothing inside? i have one cheap.
my control head got waterlogged and died. my waterproof navtech case was one big waste of money since raymarine couldn't have been bothered to make the front plate water resistant. from the amount of used parts available on ebay - all except control heads - i'm not alone. what has garmin discontinued that left customers up the creek? i just had my g2blue chip updated. i guess you're a raymarine fan and i ain't. it all depends who's on the short end. of all the parts on my boat, only my raymarine is now useless and they couldn't care less. wanna buy a nice waterproof navtech housing with nothing inside? i have one cheap.
Re: raymaine, again
if you mean by course compuuter/display is what i call the control head are the same, the chaps at raymarine say a new one is not compatible with my st4000marque2, which of you is incorrect?
if you mean by course compuuter/display is what i call the control head are the same, the chaps at raymarine say a new one is not compatible with my st4000marque2, which of you is incorrect?
Mortyd - I was just saying I've used Raymarine (Raytheon / Apelco) for 20 years and Garmin for about 10 or so, and have had problems with both. With regard to service, Raymarine has been the hardest and most uncooperative to deal with, whereas Garmin has been great. Sorry you're having this problem, I hope it works out.
That particular control head has been discontinued. Parts are likely in short supply as this is what happens when products get old.. That display can be replaced with a P-70 head and an SPX5 course computer though it's likely cheaper to buy a whole "kit" vs. just a control head and course computer.. They moved away from the computer in the head many years ago because they can get better performance in an external course computer. Still a new course computer and display will work with all your other already installed items such as the RPS, wheel drive and flux gate.
What Garmin stuff is no longer supported and can no longer be repaired??
This is just stuff I own/owned that can no longer be repaired...... I still have my dead 182C and 176 if you know someone who can fix them.....
GPSMAP 215
GMSMAP 182C
GPSMAP 176
GPSMAP 175
GPSMAP 498
The parts supplies for our current Garmin 3200 series and GPAMAP 476C are getting thin, as confirmed by Garmin this spring. They may already not be able to support my 476C which has been back a few times and needs to go in again. I should get on that before it can no longer be supported. This unit is only 3 years old from when I bought it...
Morty,
Raymarine discounts the entire wheel pilot "kit" pretty drastically beyond buying the pieces individually. I suspect an SPX5 wheel pilot would cost you only slightly more than buying just a computer and display but you'd get a new wheel drive and new flux gate compass..
Defender has the entire SPX-5 autopilot system on sale for $1270.00 right now.. I'd be surprised if you could buy a P-70 head and computer for less.. Also check eBay for a replacement control head for yours. Be aware that later 6002 heads had no computer in them so you would need the one for a ST4000+ MKII.. The control heads look the same but are different on the inside.
so, you suggest i spend $1300 while tossing $800 bucks of perfectly functioning parts from a manufacturer who hides in the back of the instruction manual only to use the autpilot in good weather and calm water, and who does nothing to waterproof the case? really? it's my fault for not going with my gut when i first thought that my airplane autopiot costs as much as a nice used catalina 30, and i must be buying junk.
Morty, you missed a BIG issue: anyone taken a look at the puny little motors used in these gadgets? My ST3000 control box includes the fluxgate and is waterproof. The little motor in the drive section could probably be replaced if/when it breaks with something more robust from Radio Shack!
Morty,
No one is suggesting tossing anything. I am suggesting that buying the kit may be less expensive OR finding a used display on eBay. You can then SELL the other parts if you don't want them as spares. This would further reduce your costs.
With the number of boats I work on and the number of ST-60 displays is see on them well into the thousands, some boats have six or more ST-60 displays, and not having had to replace one due to "water damage" I suspect this was caused by something other than the display not being water resistant/proof.
They state that in the manual because these are inexpensive AP's designed for a specific use and built to a specific price point.. If you want an ocean going, blue water AP it's going to cost about 6-7X the cost of a wheel drive by the time you're done. You just can't get a Lexus for a Yugo price...
That said our boat weighs double what yours does and our wheel drive has steered her for about 7000+ nm without so much as a hiccup, in some VERY rough seas. Was out earlier this week in 25-35 without any complaints..
EDITED: I just went through some invoices and did in fact have a 4000+ control head tested by Raymarine in June of this year. Perhaps they ran out of parts between now and then but as of June they at least tested one for one of my customers and it looks like they turned it around in about 8 days..
how nice for you, and i guess you are correct that my water damage is caused by something other than water.
No water damage is water damage and on a ten year old + product I can't even begin to guess what went wrong. Perhaps the installer forgot the gasket, opened the case at some point or the UV cover was not used and the buttons cracked thus allowing water into the display. I have seen them get hit with a winch handle and crack too. Many variables that could have let water in yet they don't mean it was not waterproof at one point. I've yet to see one suffer and die from water damage but that does not mean it can't happen. Anything is possible in the marine environment.
Of all the instruments I see on boats the ST-60 series has been quite reliable.
Did Raymarine specifically tell you they can no longer repair that control head? I know they can still test them, Lee has done it for me. I have one here in my shop but I have no idea if it is good or bad. All I know is I replaced that AP with a new one that used a below deck drive. It is from the late 90's and looks good but I have no clue if it works or not....
The ST-4000+ began life back in 1991 and was discontinued in 2003, 9 years ago. It was supported/repaired for about 8 years after being discontinued. In today's world of electronics that is a very, very long support life. My Garmin 182C was supported for less than 3 years after it was discontinued and my GPS MAP 176 about 3 years.... 3-4 years after discontinuation is about the industry average.
I drilled a couple of small weep hole in bottom of instrument pod. So that any moisture that may get into pod case can then drain out. Plus it allows the enclosed space to breath and not sweat.Maine Sail said:
it must be a maine thing, and no blame for loving that wonderful place, but raymarine just told me to get lost. somebody who worked for ray told me that fresh water incursion- over a period of years (under a bimini) - fried the unit. my favorite raytheon story is that during the time ray owned beech, beechcraft aircraft came from the factory with garmin avionics. it's ok maine sail, i have better uses for my money than a new autopilot. i have since learned how to trim my sails and don't really need one.
Raytheon still owns Beech but Raymarine is a different company that recently sold to Flir Systems. The marine electronics portion was only ever owned by Raytheon from 1990 to 2001. In 2001 they again became a stand alone company until the Flir acquisition. Before 1990 they were Autohelm... It makes good sense that Beech used Garmin AVIONICS because Raymarine has never made any aviation products..
Apparently Morty isn't as interested in fixing or getting his autopilot working as much as in trashing Raymarine. I don't really blame him, as I've bought electronics that have gone bad after a few years too that aren't well supported. But it is kind of ridiculous to expect complicated electronics to work flawlessly in a marine environment. I can't imagine a more hostile environment to electronic parts then lets see, being surrounded with corrosive salt air, hot sun, cold winter temps, constant moisture, high humidity, irregular voltage, potential lightning strikes, etc.
I don't have an auto pilot and frankly don't want to waste my hard earned money on one. This thread just reinforces that autopilots for boats are inherintly unreliable & a waste of money. This is why I sail with a crew, that I trust a lot more then an autopilot. This is also why I always keep paper charts handy, because whenever you soley rely on inherintly unreliable electronics to steer or navigate you are gonna get burned. When I hear of guys using an iPhone or tablet for their navigation, I laugh. These weak handhleds have no place on a boat, other then to get your e-mail. But this is why I sail: to get away from all the digital distractions & garbage.
While I do use a Garmin Chartplotter I do not use it exclusively. I can't tell you how many times it has plotted to sail me into the shallows of a channel to find the quickest, "most direct way to get me from point A to B." As far as hand held Garmin 176 type units, they only cost about a hundred bucks new, so why would Garmin even bother to service or repair them, as this would likely cost more then just buying another one? At the end of the day these companies are in the business of making money & unfortunately customer service is not, & never will be a top priority. These companies just want to sell you a new one, not service the old one. Sad but true.
I don't have an auto pilot and frankly don't want to waste my hard earned money on one. This thread just reinforces that autopilots for boats are inherintly unreliable & a waste of money. This is why I sail with a crew, that I trust a lot more then an autopilot. This is also why I always keep paper charts handy, because whenever you soley rely on inherintly unreliable electronics to steer or navigate you are gonna get burned. When I hear of guys using an iPhone or tablet for their navigation, I laugh. These weak handhleds have no place on a boat, other then to get your e-mail. But this is why I sail: to get away from all the digital distractions & garbage.
While I do use a Garmin Chartplotter I do not use it exclusively. I can't tell you how many times it has plotted to sail me into the shallows of a channel to find the quickest, "most direct way to get me from point A to B." As far as hand held Garmin 176 type units, they only cost about a hundred bucks new, so why would Garmin even bother to service or repair them, as this would likely cost more then just buying another one? At the end of the day these companies are in the business of making money & unfortunately customer service is not, & never will be a top priority. These companies just want to sell you a new one, not service the old one. Sad but true.
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