Question for Moody
- Thread starter Rick D
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How deep are your pockets? 
To get the strength you need for any given rig, the rigging will weigh the same if made from the same alloy. The difference between 1x19, Dyform, and Rod for the same strength is diameter. If you set out to minimize aero drag of the standing rigging, you consider the whole package. Internal tangs, discontinuous rigging on multi spreader rigs, and the like. The cost of Dyform is about double that of 1x19. Rod is another 50% more expensive. 1/4" 1x19 in 316 alloy is 6900 pound wire, Dyform 1/4 in 316 is 7500 pound wire and -8 rod is 8200 pound rated with a diameter of .225" It is very hard to justify changing from one construction to another for an existing rig. If you are building a new rig, and can afford 7.50/foot rather than 2.50/foot and are going racing it makes some sense to consider engineeering the rig with rod. The turnbuckles and mast fittings are also orders of magnitude more expensive for rod, but Dyform and 1/19 swage terminals are the same. Another advantage of rod is that it is typically good for 20 years or more with proper care. It dosen't last enough longer to offset the higher cost, but that is a factor that mitigates the price. Mechanical end fittings are a good option. You can find good cases made for and against them. The Hi-Mod fittings are what I think of as second generation fittings and the assembly process is not as fussy as Sta-Lok or Norseman. I've seen cracked mechanical fittings and cracked swages. I've seen poorly installed mechanical fittings fail and poor swages fail. In my mind installation technique plays a bigger role in the quality of the end product than the fitting does. For offshore use, I'd want a boat that used only one or two sizes of wire, and had common eyes on one end. I would carry one over length wire of each size with a Swage Eye on one end and a Hi-Mod rigging stud for the other. That way I only have to make one end fit to replace a failed shroud. Sorry to be so non-committal, but as with most things that have to do with boats ... "it depends"
To get the strength you need for any given rig, the rigging will weigh the same if made from the same alloy. The difference between 1x19, Dyform, and Rod for the same strength is diameter. If you set out to minimize aero drag of the standing rigging, you consider the whole package. Internal tangs, discontinuous rigging on multi spreader rigs, and the like. The cost of Dyform is about double that of 1x19. Rod is another 50% more expensive. 1/4" 1x19 in 316 alloy is 6900 pound wire, Dyform 1/4 in 316 is 7500 pound wire and -8 rod is 8200 pound rated with a diameter of .225" It is very hard to justify changing from one construction to another for an existing rig. If you are building a new rig, and can afford 7.50/foot rather than 2.50/foot and are going racing it makes some sense to consider engineeering the rig with rod. The turnbuckles and mast fittings are also orders of magnitude more expensive for rod, but Dyform and 1/19 swage terminals are the same. Another advantage of rod is that it is typically good for 20 years or more with proper care. It dosen't last enough longer to offset the higher cost, but that is a factor that mitigates the price. Mechanical end fittings are a good option. You can find good cases made for and against them. The Hi-Mod fittings are what I think of as second generation fittings and the assembly process is not as fussy as Sta-Lok or Norseman. I've seen cracked mechanical fittings and cracked swages. I've seen poorly installed mechanical fittings fail and poor swages fail. In my mind installation technique plays a bigger role in the quality of the end product than the fitting does. For offshore use, I'd want a boat that used only one or two sizes of wire, and had common eyes on one end. I would carry one over length wire of each size with a Swage Eye on one end and a Hi-Mod rigging stud for the other. That way I only have to make one end fit to replace a failed shroud. Sorry to be so non-committal, but as with most things that have to do with boats ... "it depends"
Thanks for The Cram Course, Moody
FWIW, I'm looking at new rigging in the next couple of years, and I wanted to explore options. I was thinking of weight and lifespan and I think your remarks saved me some dead-end research. Rick D.
FWIW, I'm looking at new rigging in the next couple of years, and I wanted to explore options. I was thinking of weight and lifespan and I think your remarks saved me some dead-end research. Rick D.
Another Question For Moody
I own a Beneteau 323 with a split backstay. The problem is that there is no forestay adjustability, and the backstays each have a double turnbuckle. It appears as if the backstays were too short by design, and Beneteau compensated by adding the second turnbuckle on each side (every 323 I've seen is set up this way). The problem is that it is extremely difficult to tune this rig since I don't have 3 hands in order to hold one turnbuckle still while turning the second in line. Its made worse by the fact that when stepping the mast even with the turnbuckles opened as far as I dare, it is extremely difficult to get the backstays pinned to the boat. Do you have any suggestions?
I own a Beneteau 323 with a split backstay. The problem is that there is no forestay adjustability, and the backstays each have a double turnbuckle. It appears as if the backstays were too short by design, and Beneteau compensated by adding the second turnbuckle on each side (every 323 I've seen is set up this way). The problem is that it is extremely difficult to tune this rig since I don't have 3 hands in order to hold one turnbuckle still while turning the second in line. Its made worse by the fact that when stepping the mast even with the turnbuckles opened as far as I dare, it is extremely difficult to get the backstays pinned to the boat. Do you have any suggestions?
Rod/Wire Combos
Roger Marshall makes a case for a combination rig.* Rod does not stretch as much as wire, so it transmits more shock loads the the hull structure. He cites a case where in rough conditions the lack of flex in the rig meant that something had to give ... it was a bulkhead ... *yks Using rod for uppers and intermediates with wire lowers and backstay (possibly the forestay also with a roller furler) is the combination he likes. I've never had the chance to work on one of his rigs, but he makes some sense. Most boats don't have the attention to detail in the rigs as the custom boats he designs. I'd say that unless the designer engineered it that way, I would not be tempted to try it. At least not until I had done a very detailed study of the expected results. Randy *Ref "Designed to Cruise" 1990 pg 108
Roger Marshall makes a case for a combination rig.* Rod does not stretch as much as wire, so it transmits more shock loads the the hull structure. He cites a case where in rough conditions the lack of flex in the rig meant that something had to give ... it was a bulkhead ... *yks Using rod for uppers and intermediates with wire lowers and backstay (possibly the forestay also with a roller furler) is the combination he likes. I've never had the chance to work on one of his rigs, but he makes some sense. Most boats don't have the attention to detail in the rigs as the custom boats he designs. I'd say that unless the designer engineered it that way, I would not be tempted to try it. At least not until I had done a very detailed study of the expected results. Randy *Ref "Designed to Cruise" 1990 pg 108
323's
Yeah ... don't you just hate that setup? Beneteau uses that setup on more than one boat IIRC. The mast has considerable prebend and the only way to get the backstays on is to have lots of adjustment. We used the main halyard to the end of the boom and the mainsheet run to a winch to pull the rig back so we could pin the backstay legs. It's a three handed hassle to be sure. I don't like visegrips, but ... if you pad the jaws with a bit of leather you can hold the handle against your hip while you stand on one foot and work the other turnbuckle. Its easier just to get a buddy and let them help you get tension in the backstays and help drink your beer after. Some of the boats (not sure that is was the 323) has issues with the stem fitting flexing a bit and leaks. The local dealer had us pull the fitting off, I think we added an extra fastener and a backing plate and re-bedded them prior to delivery. It's been a few years, so don't take that info to the bank.
Yeah ... don't you just hate that setup?
Beneteau uses that setup on more than one boat IIRC. The mast has considerable prebend and the only way to get the backstays on is to have lots of adjustment. We used the main halyard to the end of the boom and the mainsheet run to a winch to pull the rig back so we could pin the backstay legs. It's a three handed hassle to be sure. I don't like visegrips, but ... if you pad the jaws with a bit of leather you can hold the handle against your hip while you stand on one foot and work the other turnbuckle. Its easier just to get a buddy and let them help you get tension in the backstays and help drink your beer after. Some of the boats (not sure that is was the 323) has issues with the stem fitting flexing a bit and leaks. The local dealer had us pull the fitting off, I think we added an extra fastener and a backing plate and re-bedded them prior to delivery. It's been a few years, so don't take that info to the bank. - Status