Pocket cruiser recommendations for family of 3

Jul 1, 2010
962
Catalina 350 Lake Huron
Still not buying. He stated twice in his post above that water ballast under the water line does nothing to increase righting force. Now we're confusing the issue with hull shape and design...another issue completely. Joe? Come back! Explain so even I can understand. I still say that the water is just weight down low in the boat. Get rid of it (without changing anything else) and the righting moment decreases.

Edit: Thanks for the reply above, Joe. Just saw it after my post. I do understand what you're getting at now (still unconvinced, but enlightened) :) And that could explain why water ballasted boats like the hunters are tender at first then settle into a groove once healed, but I always assumed that was cause the ballast was up high rather than in a keel where it would be more effective.
 
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Oct 19, 2017
7,746
O'Day 19 Littleton, NH
Joe's point is correct, but there are some statements that are either stated poorly or are not correct. Hull form is part of the issue.

Weight distribution affects righting moment.

The above statement encompasses everything talked about. Weight distribution includes amount of weight, displacement, and hull form. Tender boats maintain their CB close to center relative to CG when they tip, stiff boats have a greater movement between the two as they tip. A keel is part of the hull form that affects this, it's part of the bottom shape. A catamaran's CB (Center of Buoyancy) moves way out to one side as soon as one hull lifts from the water, but it's center of gravity stays relatively centered on the boat. A narrow deep ball keeled boat doesn't move its center of buoyancy very far from the center of the hull when it heels, but its CG (Center of Gravity) swings way out with the keel as it tips.
These things are affected by the distribution of weight. The relative weight to volume formula of the various parts of the hull in and out of the water.
its shape displaces 175 liters of water when fully submerged, which works out to about 386 lbs. This is the amount of force the body of water is exerting on the board to keep it above the surface.
A surf board that weighs 10 lbs displaces 10 lbs of water to stay afloat. The buoyant force is 10 lbs. If its overall volume can displace 386 lbs, that's its load limit, the total weight, including the board, it can keep afloat. With all its volume below the surface, its buoyant force is 386 lbs.

The point, for righting force, is how that weight is distributed and how that distribution changes relative to buoyancy as the boat heels. Water or lead, it doesn't matter. Joe's initial point is valid because he's essentially right that if you removed the area of the centered water ballast tank from the inside of the hull, changing the hull form to what looks like a catamaran, the affect of righting moment isn't changed. But then, you are also changing the overall volume of the hull, reducing both volume and weight, as well as the hull form. They are all tied together. In the case of the posted cross section, once the boat tips far enough over, that any part of the ballast tank comes above the waterline, it will have an advantage over the same hull where that area has been opened up. The opened tunnel area will be above the water, and not add to the counter weight in conjunction with the shifting CB, while the one with the water tank will begin pulling against the heeling force on the opposite side of the Center of Gravity from the Center of Buoyancy.

I think our arguement here is in mostly how to communicate our ideas. I understand what Joe has been saying, I understand what others have been saying. Some are incomplete in the picture they draw and some have not started their points well enough to avoid confusing other, but most have not said anything that is wrong.

This is a long tangent to take from a post about choosing a trailersailer, but it is both a fascinating discussion and relevant to the initial question, since many trailersailers use water ballast. However, for a boost on a trailer, being able to empty a large water tank will allow for a lighter trailer, a smaller row vehicle and still provide the stiffness of some ballast.

I hope the OP has the patience to follow along and that everyone takes something away that they can use.

-Will (Dragonfly)
 
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Jul 24, 2018
24
None right now still lookin' North Atlanta
.... I still say that the water is just weight down low in the boat. Get rid of it (without changing anything else) and the righting moment decreases.
This is exactly right. Pump out the water ballast tanks, and you've just added buoyancy to the hull. It's effectively a larger hull, since its volume (of air) just got larger now that the water's gone. Flood the tanks, and the hull sinks a bit lower.

Now have some divers go under the boat, and cut out the tanks completely. Does the boat spring out of the water? Does she float higher? Nope, she should stay at about the same level. Why? The only weight that was removed was the fiberglass tanks. Water is neutrally buoyant below the lake surface.

I'll stick with my water filled keel example from before. If a water filled cavity actually kept the boat upright, manufacturers would've caught on and trailered sailboats would have hollow keels that get filled when she's launched and drained when she's retrieved. Something like a long shoal keel. Say, 6" wide, 10' long, 2' in height (internal dimensions). That's 10 cu ft of water, or around 620 lbs of "ballast". Would this do anything to keep the boat upright? Nope, not until she's knocked over.
 
Apr 16, 2017
841
Federation NCC-1701 Riverside
Humans are ~70% water. I weigh 170 lbs. Do I shoot to the bottom of the pool when I get in? Nope, actually, depending on the amount of air in my lungs, I can sink, float, or be relatively neutral. When I'm neutral in the water, I'm displacing exactly the amount of water to equal my weight (or more appropriately, mass).
Throw a life vest in the pool and watch it float. The vest floats aimlessly, very high on the water with no particular arrangement. Its buoyant but not stable.

A person is mostly water and is close to netrally buoyant. Astronaut take advantage of this for training. The person is not bouyant and there is any noticable tendency to orientate.

Put that floppy super buoyant life vest on a netrally bouyant person and bam...like magic..the life vest takes on a fixed shape on the water and the nuetrally buoyant person stabalizes the vest. The system has everything it needs for stability. Bouyancy, check, fixed separation between higher and lower desity, check. Bouyancy and stability.

By the way good luck on your boat hunt. That market is the toughest to shop for. Racers wont touch it and big spenders want washers and dryers and garages for the jet skis.
 
Nov 8, 2010
11,386
Beneteau First 36.7 & 260 Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
Wow you crazy people! Feathers? Icebergs?

The CG of a boat factors in its displacement of course, but WHERE and WHAT that displacement causing material is really drives it. 1000lbs of lead bolted to the C/L of the floor will serve better than it bolted to the C/L of the cabintop. (This has happened) Lower and heavier material lowers the CG relative to the CB and therefore creates a longer righting moment when the boat heels. Sometimes on boats the GC is ABOVE the CB. This will create a short arm and a relatively unstable boat that relies on form stability and/or crew movement. Usually the two points are right on top of each other, or close. This is ALL water-ballasted boats are trying to get to. This can create a decent arm. Some boats like the Pogo 12.5 have a CG below the hull, an astounding feat of marine engineering.
 
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Nov 6, 2006
9,893
Hunter 34 Mandeville Louisiana
Center of gravity below the center of buoyancy.. that is the key.. as water enters a boat (in a tank or not) the center of gravity of the boat gets lower and the center of buoyancy gets a little higher as she settles in the water.. the larger that distance, the more stability ya get.. ya just don't get as much change as when ya add a high density fill, such as lead.. which changes the center of gravity much more aggressively..
EDIT.. JackDaw beat me to it..
 
Jul 24, 2018
24
None right now still lookin' North Atlanta
By the way good luck on your boat hunt. That market is the toughest to shop for. Racers wont touch it and big spenders want washers and dryers and garages for the jet skis.
I ended up with a Hutchins Com-Pac 16, brought home a few weeks ago.

And I can agree with your assessment of the market - I picked up a 13' Spindrift (https://sailboatdata.com/sailboat/spindrift-13) for free back in September (sprayed her off, bought some used sails for it, and flipped it for a couple bucks last weekend). The only other "free" boat I found in the past few months was a San Juan 21 (and was basically trash).

Trailer sailors with a cabin command a higher asking price (maybe their owners are reluctant to get rid of them).

I looked at maybe a half dozen boats, missed out on a few because I was too slow or too far away. I liked the simplicity and build quality of the Hutchins line, and when I found a CP-16 for a reasonable price, I jumped on it.
 
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Sep 24, 2018
2,599
O'Day 25 Chicago
A water ballast is like having a chamber of lead pellets in your bilge. It'll shift a bit causing a delay in it's effect but thats about it. The design of the tank has a large effect on how the water ballast behaves.
 
Jun 8, 2004
10,062
-na -NA Anywhere USA
The Hunter water ballast tanks were designed to fill up with the tank lift to be at water line leaving appx 1 to 1 1/2 inch from the top so they were full. Further it was designed as a trailerable sailboat so one person could launch/retrieve from the trailer, raise the mast and sail alone. It was not designed to be a racing boat although I raced competitively well with them keeping in mind max heeling up to 12-14 degree max. I was involved with these boats
They are not for everyone but had their place. Some things were said that needed correction
 
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Sumner

.
Jan 31, 2009
5,254
Macgregor & Endeavour 26S and 37 Utah's Canyon Country
....:banghead:For those who've made it this far in the thread and aren't beating their head against the wall, check this out: (ripped from http://kobernus.com/hunter260/water_ballast/water_ballast_paper2.html)


..
The link you referenced clearly shows how water ballast works and it starts working before the water ballast compartment is lifted above the water, as you can see in Illustration 4 above.

Once held captive in the tank where it can not slosh to the lowest part of the boat it is just 'weight' like any other weight and will work the same. Might not be liked by some but I've been very happy with how it works and how the boat sails,

Sumner
================================================================================
1300 miles to The Bahamas and Back in the Mac...
Endeavour 37 Mods...

MacGregor 26-S Mods...http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/endeavour-main/endeavour-index.html
Mac Trips to Utah, Idaho, Wyoming, Canada, Florida, Bahamas
 
Jan 17, 2013
442
Catalina 310 St. Simons Island, GA
A Rhodes 22 caught my eye last fall, and is about at the upper limit of what I'd be comfortable towing. The trailer the seller had was grossly undersized though, which was a deal breaker. (Yes, I could've bought another trailer, but finding one with the capacity and bunks, then fitting the bunks, all in this guy's front yard was more than I wanted to undertake. If I ever had to fit a trailer, I'd want to do it from a sling.)

I agree though, a lot of boat for 22'. I'll keep my eye open.




Thank you so much for sharing those! I just read both, and they matched my vision of how we'd spend a weekend in our own boat. The amount of details were great... I've been contemplating what we'd be doing all day, and was afraid the crew would get bored. Sounds like I need to make coastal cruising part of the plan, as you guys did a lot in just a few days time.

We like to play cards also (right now, my son's favorite is "UNO" and we play at least once a day), so a table in the saloon (even if portable) is a must, even if I have to make one myself.

I'm not totally against a weighted swing keel, but would just prefer not to deal with the maintenance and complexity. I've read a couple horror stories that are now permanently stuck in my mind (pivots breaking, keel sticking up or down, removal for maintenance, trunk leaking, winches or cable breaking, etc).



From my own past projects (powerboats, campers, jetskis, motorcycles, bicycles), I find I enjoy the restoration more than actually using the darn thing. When it was time to sell to make room for the next project, I always made a profit though, which at least paid for the hobby.
I owned a Rhodes 22 for 12 years and know a lot about them. Awesome boat but the weight including a good single axle trailer will be in excess of 4,000 lbs. With a dual axle trailer willmbe closer to 5,000 lb. The nine stays means rigging takes time. My record was 60 mins but 90 is more realistic. Based on your listed criteria I would second the Mac 26 as a good choice.
 

bmorr

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Apr 5, 2009
75
Hunter 26 Pueblo Lake CO
Lots of interesting comments. My 2nd boat was a mac22. Nice but crowded. The third was a Mac 26c. Great boat, with it I learned the value of roller furing in rising wind. For the last 8 years we have been on a hunter 26.
More room, inside and out. I love this boat. One disadvantage is tow weight, I towed the MAC from CO to Lake Tahoe but probably wouldn’t do that with the Mac. Being 76 I do enjoy not having to crawl in the boat.
Whatever you pick I strongly suggest a roller furing. Ther is no wrong choice if you look at this as a learning step.
Bill
 
Oct 22, 2014
21,104
CAL 35 Cruiser #21 moored EVERETT WA
We can but the thread did yield some interesting moments... The Dancing Lizard, and Godzilla....