PHRF conflicts with LWL -

[RussC]

Sparky,

Not sure which post you are responding to, however, you are an example of what I have repeatedly cited here and elsewhere about the sport.

Ultimately this is a political issue (not a national political issue, we have enough of those right now). The people who control PHRF are people who like to race and are willing to put forth a lot of effort to race and win. Casual racers don't get involved in the governance of the sport, they just want to go out and see if they can beat someone once in a while, have a few beers, and then tell lies back at the club house.

Unfortunately, there is no leadership in US Sailing willing to address this issue. Maybe when the social and cruising members of the various clubs get tired of subsidizing the racing fleets that will change.

The simple answer to the issue is to assign ratings based on the individual boat/skipper combination, base that rating on actual performance, and review the ratings at least annually. I've outlined one path to that on my website, SV-SecondStar.net.

There are so many excellent points in this post that it needs way more than one "like". It's good to see someone who actually understands "the little guys" positions. When the little guy can have FUN in the sport, without big money and overpowering rules restrictions, then the sport might have a chance to grow again. This isn't limited to just sailing BTW. I've been involved in many activities that were dyeing due to the exact same type of issues, yet few understood why there either. Most sports that are growing have entry level racing classes with far fewer rules and high emphasis on FUN. If the only class of auto racing was NASCAR, how many little guys could enjoy auto racing?
Quote of the month: "Maybe when the social and cruising members of the various clubs get tired of subsidizing the racing fleets that will change." yes yes yes.

 

[agprice22]

Sparky, are you saying you get left in the dust and come in last, heads-up, every race, even among similarly rated boats? If so, you are gonna need another strategy to overcome that. Not making a mistake does not mean you are not losing time in other ways. Now if you are finishing close to "like" competition, beating them heads-up sometimes and losing others, but your handicap means you lose anyway, then it does sound wrong.
Among coastal cruisers, I do not expect to beat the Hunter 32s with my 272, but there are days I can! Why? I do not know. But it says my rating is pretty close. If I am even close, heads-up, my rating would probably get me a win in that match-up.
There are many factors. PHRF means those factors are not taken into account. Bottoms, sails, crew, weight, etc. all factor into a winning effort. If you are finishing outside your rating, look at those factors.

 

[dlochner]

Sparky, are you saying you get left in the dust and come in last, heads-up, every race, even among similarly rated boats? If so, you are gonna need another strategy to overcome that. Not making a mistake does not mean you are not losing time in other ways. Now if you are finishing close to "like" competition, beating them heads-up sometimes and losing others, but your handicap means you lose anyway, then it does sound wrong.
Among coastal cruisers, I do not expect to beat the Hunter 32s with my 272, but there are days I can! Why? I do not know. But it says my rating is pretty close. If I am even close, heads-up, my rating would probably get me a win in that match-up.
There are many factors. PHRF means those factors are not taken into account. Bottoms, sails, crew, weight, etc. all factor into a winning effort. If you are finishing outside your rating, look at those factors.

Andrew,
The underlying assumption of PHRF class ratings is that all boats in that class are equal. That simply isn't true. Earlier in this thread there was a comment from someone who measured IRC boats and he noted that there were significant weight variations. Talk to One Design sailors and they will tell you that there are fast boats in their class and slow boats. The reasons are not readily apparent.

There are ways to game PHRF ratings. The smart sailors have figured this out and the sailors who have the means to trick their boats out to win are doing that. That's great for the group of sailors who want to engage in the arms race, but for many of us, we just want to go out on a Wednesday evening, sail, beat our dock neighbor and drink a few beers. Those who are gaming the system are taking away the fun for the rest of us. And when it ain't fun, you stop sailing.

Earlier I said there are people who sail to compete and people who compete to sail. The first group is driving the second group out of the sport. I hold no animosity towards the first group, but the second group are my people and sailors just want to have fun (apologies to Cyndi Lauper) . We're not going to spend a ton of money on a bottom job, we're not buying new sails every couple of years, and we're not traveling to regattas. We just want to have some bragging rights, get a name on a trophy, and have fun. The highly competitive hard core sailors are taking that away in places like where you and I sail.

 

[agprice22]

Andrew,
The underlying assumption of PHRF class ratings is that all boats in that class are equal. That simply isn't true. Earlier in this thread there was a comment from someone who measured IRC boats and he noted that there were significant weight variations. Talk to One Design sailors and they will tell you that there are fast boats in their class and slow boats. The reasons are not readily apparent.

There are ways to game PHRF ratings. The smart sailors have figured this out and the sailors who have the means to trick their boats out to win are doing that. That's great for the group of sailors who want to engage in the arms race, but for many of us, we just want to go out on a Wednesday evening, sail, beat our dock neighbor and drink a few beers. Those who are gaming the system are taking away the fun for the rest of us. And when it ain't fun, you stop sailing.

Earlier I said there are people who sail to compete and people who compete to sail. The first group is driving the second group out of the sport. I hold no animosity towards the first group, but the second group are my people and sailors just want to have fun (apologies to Cyndi Lauper) . We're not going to spend a ton of money on a bottom job, we're not buying new sails every couple of years, and we're not traveling to regattas. We just want to have some bragging rights, get a name on a trophy, and have fun. The highly competitive hard core sailors are taking that away in places like where you and I sail.

I agree. I do not doubt that there are those who trick out their boats, but I think that is less common among the cruisers. In that way, I can still compete. No one is going to trick out his 272! Or his 32 Hunter for that matter. I think I sail against my rating which is among other cruisers. I am NOT going to win among competitors of "racier" classes because they are willing to trick out their boats while I still intend to SLEEP on mine that evening and cook breakfast in the morning.
I ignore those who gotta win at all costs. My neighbors and I still have our glory! We know who won the battle. Who cares about the campaign.
Tell you what, I will show the J boat fleet they are number 1 with me when I pass them in my Trimaran this Summer!
Otherwise, I totally agree that some people take racing too seriously. The fact is that most of us want to enjoy our boats in many ways, and that is not always going to help us win races.
Let's enjoy racing among ourselves. We all know we can discount the outliers.

 

[jon hansen]

the popularity of sailing in new zealand and australia is exploding, while the popularity of sailing in north america is declinng. it has absolutely nothing to do with PHRF.
went to dave's web sight, i disagree with ALL your , dave's, conclusions.

you have mentioned here that you are more interested to sit at your dock drinking beer and bs,n the neighbors than sailing your boat to a high standard.
in the photos on your web page i see you have spent lots of money on all the go slow gear available so your boat feels like a summer cabin.

wallowing on a slow boat is not fun in my opinion.

'when boats were wood and men were iron'

 

[agprice22]

the popularity of sailing in new zealand and australia is exploding, while the popularity of sailing in north america is declinng. it has absolutely nothing to do with PHRF.
went to dave's web sight, i disagree with ALL your , dave's, conclusions.

you have mentioned here that you are more interested to sit at your dock drinking beer and bs,n the neighbors than sailing your boat to a high standard.
in the photos on your web page i see you have spent lots of money on all the go slow gear available so your boat feels like a summer cabin.

wallowing on a slow boat is not fun in my opinion.

'when boats were wood and men were iron'

I say! To WHOM have you thrown down this gauntlet, sir?
The race is in the HEARTS of men and women. Let them race, I say! Look not upon their mount. Look upon the determination of their brow, the grip of their fists upon the reins, to see their fortitude!

Eh hem... pardon my sudden medievil shift.

I agree, cruisers cannot beg the PHRF for better ratings to compete with boats who do not have solar systems, kayaks, freshwater wash down, refrigeration, air conditioning, fresh water systems, generators, biminis, dodgers, television, microwave,
Ok. I got tired of typing...

There once was a car named the Porsche 917K... (random Lemans race weekend reference to an all-out vehicle that caused rules to change)

The fact is that many owner modifications slow the boats, and unmodified boats are... non-existent. Some people modify their boats to go faster. Some to enjoy their boats. Those who want to enjoy their boats should not bitch when they cannot prevail against purists.
"Yeah but..." is a race we race in our minds after the flag is thrown!

 

[dlochner]

the popularity of sailing in new zealand and australia is exploding, while the popularity of sailing in north america is declinng. it has absolutely nothing to do with PHRF.
went to dave's web sight, i disagree with ALL your , dave's, conclusions.

you have mentioned here that you are more interested to sit at your dock drinking beer and bs,n the neighbors than sailing your boat to a high standard.
in the photos on your web page i see you have spent lots of money on all the go slow gear available so your boat feels like a summer cabin.

wallowing on a slow boat is not fun in my opinion.

'when boats were wood and men were iron'

Jon,

I may not have been as clear in my intentions or you may have completely missed the points I have tried to make.

The main point I try to make is that competition needs to be fair. At the local level, the club level, in order for the competition to be fair everyone competing must have access to equal resources and have equal resources to access. Certainly for the clubs in my neck of the woods, that isn't the case. The result is that in any given fleet there are a handful of sailors who dominate the fleet and eventually the rest of the fleet loses interest and goes away. In my club I watched it happen to a Lightning fleet, a J24 fleet, and a PHRF fleet. My club is typical of a small town regional club, it is not a club in a sailing hot spot like Annapolis, Newport, San Diego, etc. As it stands now, PHRF favors those who have the resources to invest or the savvy to beat the system. My main point is that neither is good for the sport.

If you are a hard core racer, go for it. Go find other sailors who have similar interests and compete against them. That's fair and necessary for the sport. The issue is that the go for broke attitude that the hard core racers seem to have is not shared by others who are not able to invest the time, money, and resources to rise to the hard core standards. A lot of sailors, and I would be one of them, enjoy casual friendly competition, but we don't want to dedicate all of our financial and emotional resources to competing at the highest level. Personally, the most satisfaction I got from racing was sailing with a group of people who got along (mostly) well and worked together as a team. My fondest memories of racing are about team work, not about winning. For others, winning is what racing is about and for the many of us that is off putting and hurts the sport.

Jon, your comments hurt the sport but not my feelings. Ad hominem attacks serve no purpose. Second Star is a Sabre 362 that has been, and will be, a cruising boat. I am currently outfitting it for an extended cruise out the St. Lawrence River and down the east coast to the Bahamas. My limited resources are going to that purpose not to make it a "summer cabin." That may not yet be clear on my website as the website is still a work in progress. By the way, a Sabre 362 could hardly be called a "slow boat" and she does not wallow. But I agree with you , wallowing on a slow boat is not fun, that's why I bought a Sabre 362. On Lake Ontario she has a PHRF NFS rating of about 140, not as fast as a J35, but a lot more comfortable than the J35 for an extended cruise. I can't stand up in a J35 cabin, but I can in my Sabre 362.

If you disagree with "ALL your , dave's, conclusions" then I wish you would be more specific. My high school English teacher would mark your statement with big "GG" for glittering generality. I am more than happy to read and respond to a reasoned comment on any conclusion or statement that I have posted here or on my website. It is through a mature reasoned dialogue that we can advance any cause, sailing included.

The bottom line is that participation in sailing is declining. As active participants we have a choice, we can look for ways to bring people into the fold or we can whine about the decline and wish we were elsewhere. I choose to look for ways to bring people into the fold.

 

[shemandr]

I agree, cruisers cannot beg the PHRF for better ratings to compete with boats who do not have solar systems, kayaks, freshwater wash down, refrigeration, air conditioning, fresh water systems, generators, biminis, dodgers, television, microwave,...

or Corian counter tops!
First, I liked the medievil talk.
Second, this is the crux of the discussion. I agree that the cruisers shouldn't be rated to be even with the more competitive racers. But, for the sake of participation couldn't there be a style of racing which satisfies the desire of cruising type sailors to have a racing experience without having to devote their lives to it? My racing days are waning, but I still love to match wits with my fellow sailors. I just have no interest in hauling gear on and off the boat. I don't have the income any longer for the arms race in sails or rigging or any of that. So, I'm sailing OPB's which is the best I can work it out for now. And yeah, to be good crew I do my share of hauling etc.

 

[agprice22]

I think a crucial division is developing here: racers racing racers versus cruisers racing cruisers. There needs to be a distinction that the PHRF does not address.
Thus, both sides are correct. The racers need a to be a separate class. The cruisers need to be a separate class. The distinction begins with modifications and their intent!
With differentiation of intent, my stove will not lose me a race. Breakfast does not become my handicap.
The PHRF really only addresses modifications with intent to ADD speed: spinnakers and downwind sails.
Anyone can beat a system, but because it is systematized, it is not cheating unless you break a specific rule. Systems define the ways around them.
Cheating applies to principles. The principle of honor and trust is what maintains relationships.
We need to change the system, so that people feel the principles are adhered to. Then they will feel the spirit of racing is honored, but within a more defined system.

 

[agprice22]

By the way, my accomplishments stand alone. My "yeah but," is a race equalizer I play in my circles. The racers are my friends too. We both know their addiction and mine. I don't need a trophy. I don't need mention at the banquet. I want sex on board at sunset and breakfast with hot coffee at sunrise! They cannot have that. I cannot have it all. But I like what I got!

 

[Jackdaw]

Sparky,

The simple answer to the issue is to assign ratings based on the individual boat/skipper combination, base that rating on actual performance, and review the ratings at least annually. I've outlined one path to that on my website, SV-SecondStar.net.

No No No.

This is a GOLF handicap. Golf handicaps golfers for one reason. To make casual betting interesting. It's never used is real competition.

Trust me I'm all for getting more people in the sport, but not like that. Let's keep 'winning' actually meaning something. This world gives out too many participation trophies already.

 

[Jackdaw]

Most small clubs, if they are smart, have a documented, arms-length approach to generating ratings, and will not touch them after that. Or simply use and join the a close or similar PHRF board. For instance, boats on Lake Superior use Lake Michigan PHRF.

The big PHRF boys have the resources (and desire) to fine tune ratings, NOBODY wants the hassle and grief of dealing with that at the club level.

As others have noted , the vast majority of the bleeding of time on a racecourse is self-inflicted. I have to chuckle when I hear someone always complaining about their rating when I see them consiststantly grossly out of trim or sailing in huge knocks.

That silently costs them minutes, and then they cry about seconds.

 

[Jackdaw]

Here's a simple truth. Being a good sailor does NOT make you a good racer. And most of the time, simply trying more will not either. That's what gets most 'cruiser racers' who are good sailors wound up when they get crushed by a 'boat' in some race. Guess what.. that 'boat' did not beat you.

The vast majority of good racers got good by racing with good racers on good racers boats. They learned what fast looks like, and where fast is.

Normally the best racers at the club will still beat you if you swap boats. No handicap system is perfect. But it's a lot closer than most think. The big differences are always in skill, not ratings.

 

[Stu Jackson]

Here's a simple truth. Being a good sailor does NOT make you a good racer. And most of the time, simply trying more will not either. That's what gets most 'cruiser racers' wound up when they get crushed by a 'boat' in some race. Guess what.. that 'boat' did not beat you.

The vast majority of good racers got good by racing with good racers on good racers boats. They learned what fast looks like, and where fast is.

Normally the best racers at the club will still beat you if you swap boats. No handicap system is perfect. But it's a lot closer than most think. The big differences are always in skill, not ratings.

There is great merit in these comments. Based on my previous post on page three (reply #47) about our C34 experiences, once we "leveled the playing field" in our racing division, which then applied to all races all year long because we had our own starts, it surely became the skill 'cuz the boat ratings were identical. Different boats win different races and series. That's fair based on the skill of the competitors and changing conditions on the courses.

 

[dlochner]

No No No.

This is a GOLF handicap. Golf handicaps golfers for one reason. To make casual betting interesting. It's never used is real competition.

Trust me I'm all for getting more people in the sport, but not like that. Let's keep 'winning' actually meaning something. This world gives out too many participation trophies already.

Jack, sailors don't bet on races in Minnesota?

If golf handicaps followed the logic of PHRF handicaps, then the handicap would be based on the brand of club used and the type of golf ball. For whatever purpose the golf handicap was developed, it fundamentally handicaps the golfer not the equipment.

Following your logic, PHRF racing is not real competition. The big professional races do not use handicaps, there is no handicap in the AC, the VOR, or the IMOCA class.

The usual comment I get from very competitive racers is similar to yours and it mostly says, if we change to an individual handicap from a class handicap we'll be giving away the store and the winners will start losing to the losers. If you look at some of the data that I have published, that does not happen.

So, what does happen when individual handicaps are used instead of class handicaps? Competition improves if you measure competitiveness by corrected time deltas. Smaller deltas mean that every decision, every action on the course is more important. Deltas were decreased by as much as 50 to 70%, that's a lot. If you used to beat the next fastest boat by 30 seconds, with an individual rating that 30 seconds becomes 10 to 15 seconds, one sloppy tack or one late call on a wind shift.

Race results are different with an individual vs a class handicap, but they are not necessarily big differences. A boat will move up or down a place or two. These are not dramatic shifts, the new kid with baggy sails and shaggy bottom will not suddenly start winning races. He may move up a notch once in a while, but it would be rare to go from the bottom of the fleet to the top.

Because an individual rating factors in the skipper and crew's performance, it tips the boat vs skill balance back towards skills. There are 2 important consequences to the balance shift. First, there is less incentive to engage in checkbook racing which makes the sport more affordable and attractive. Second, consistent performance gets rewarded. Consistent performance comes from practice and skill development, time spent on the water sailing, not under the boat with a sander.

How do we measure consistent performance? For each race calculate a "sailed to" rating and then calculate the standard deviation of those ratings. The boat with the smaller standard deviation will end the season higher in the season's standings. That's how the math works.

To my way of thinking, these factors benefit both the serious competitor and the casual competitor and makes the sport more competitive and interesting.

 

[Jackdaw]

Jack, sailors don't bet on races in Minnesota?

If golf handicaps followed the logic of PHRF handicaps, then the handicap would be based on the brand of club used and the type of golf ball. For whatever purpose the golf handicap was developed, it fundamentally handicaps the golfer not the equipment.

Following your logic, PHRF racing is not real competition. The big professional races do not use handicaps, there is no handicap in the AC, the VOR, or the IMOCA class.

The usual comment I get from very competitive racers is similar to yours and it mostly says, if we change to an individual handicap from a class handicap we'll be giving away the store and the winners will start losing to the losers. If you look at some of the data that I have published, that does not happen.

So, what does happen when individual handicaps are used instead of class handicaps? Competition improves if you measure competitiveness by corrected time deltas. Smaller deltas mean that every decision, every action on the course is more important. Deltas were decreased by as much as 50 to 70%, that's a lot. If you used to beat the next fastest boat by 30 seconds, with an individual rating that 30 seconds becomes 10 to 15 seconds, one sloppy tack or one late call on a wind shift.

Race results are different with an individual vs a class handicap, but they are not necessarily big differences. A boat will move up or down a place or two. These are not dramatic shifts, the new kid with baggy sails and shaggy bottom will not suddenly start winning races. He may move up a notch once in a while, but it would be rare to go from the bottom of the fleet to the top.

Because an individual rating factors in the skipper and crew's performance, it tips the boat vs skill balance back towards skills. There are 2 important consequences to the balance shift. First, there is less incentive to engage in checkbook racing which makes the sport more affordable and attractive. Second, consistent performance gets rewarded. Consistent performance comes from practice and skill development, time spent on the water sailing, not under the boat with a sander.

How do we measure consistent performance? For each race calculate a "sailed to" rating and then calculate the standard deviation of those ratings. The boat with the smaller standard deviation will end the season higher in the season's standings. That's how the math works.

To my way of thinking, these factors benefit both the serious competitor and the casual competitor and makes the sport more competitive and interesting.

Dave,

Do we bet on sailboat races? No. And certainly not in a way that tries to make it a 50:50 proposition.

I agree that's what a golf handicap is, but I think that makes my point and not yours.

Re PHRF not being real racing. Handicap sailboat racing exists (in all forms) because not every wants or needs the exact same type of boat. Some systems are better at 'rating' the boats then others. PHRF is for sure a ways down the list. Is it perfect? No. But I'll live with the imperfections.

I respect the time and effort that you put into this, but I fundamentally disagree with the notion that the the way to make this better is normalizing the ability of the crew and reward simple constancy and minor increment improvement. That's not what being 'best' is. I want someone to push me, make me be faster by them being faster, and not by becoming normalized with a simple mix of maneuvers and tactics to build consistency. Because that is what would happen. While I'm huge fan of growing the sport, I would not have wanted that when I was starting out racing, and I'm not interested in it now.

 

[Jumpstart]

DLochner get over yourself. Your Sabre 362 is a cruiser racer. You could choose to outfit it as a race oriented boat but choose not to. That's your choice. There are cruising classes for boats equipped like yours or at least around here. PHRF committees are not about handicapping refrigerators, biminis, or any one of a number of cruising items. When that happens you will start seeing carbon fibre refrigerators. Your claims of of your modest sailing budget are a kind of ironic. Isn't a Sabre 362 worth around $140,000. That's not modest by any standard. Bottom line is that you want the game to change to how you want it to be so that you can be competitive. Good luck with that. You might try organizing a cruising class in your area so that you can compete with like boats. After you beat up on the assorted late model Hunters and Oceanis series Beneteaus you might find that participation will decrease in the cruising class too.

 

[dlochner]

DLochner get over yourself. Your Sabre 362 is a cruiser racer. You could choose to outfit it as a race oriented boat but choose not to. That's your choice. There are cruising classes for boats equipped like yours or at least around here. PHRF committees are not about handicapping refrigerators, biminis, or any one of a number of cruising items. When that happens you will start seeing carbon fibre refrigerators. Your claims of of your modest sailing budget are a kind of ironic. Isn't a Sabre 362 worth around $140,000. That's not modest by any standard. Bottom line is that you want the game to change to how you want it to be so that you can be competitive. Good luck with that. You might try organizing a cruising class in your area so that you can compete with like boats. After you beat up on the assorted late model Hunters and Oceanis series Beneteaus you might that participation might decrease in the cruising class too.

Hey, Wednightracer, thank you for providing an excellent example of an ad hominem attack. Please read this Wikipedia entry: Ad hominem - Wikipedia

After you have read the articles and understand the math and reasoning behind them, ask a question. I'd be glad to answer it.

For the record. I raced my own boat or crewed on others for over 25 years. I founded a PHRF race that is about to realize its 30th anniversary, and served on too many regatta organizing committees and race committees to count. At this point in my life, I have no intention of racing my boat nor to spend any time racing. I've passed that phase. My goal and the reason I bought the boat I did is to go cruising, visit the Maritimes, and spend a winter in the Bahamas. Oh yeah, you have grossly over estimated the value of my boat.

Finally, thank you for clearly expressing your attitude, it is exactly the kind of attitude that I believe is turning sailors away from the joy of sailing with a group of friends in a friendly competition. It is the attitude that I believe is draining the life out of our sport. I could not have said it better.

 

[agprice22]

DLochner; I think it is a good model you propose, but (damn, you knew there was a but!), I just cannot see committees doing that kind of math! Your model creates a continuum on which ratings occur, and it relates ACTUAL performance rather than boat. I like it: get better, and the pendulum swings, making winning a little harder.
It does presuppose that no one would sandbag.
I know I wouldn't! I would rather run you down from back of the field and bask in the satisfaction!
Are you sure that Sabre isn't $140k? Can I borrow it?

 

[dlochner]

Are you sure that Sabre isn't $140k? Can I borrow it?

Andrew, The first $140,000 gets the boat!

The math to actually do the calculations isn't that difficult. I have a spreadsheet that does the math, but I didn't develop it, so I am reluctant to distribute it. I have been in discussions with the authors of the spreadsheet, but spring and getting the boat in the water slowed those down.

I dont' claim to have a perfect system, just one that approaches the handicapping issue from a different perspective. By profession I was (am?) a school psychologist well steeped in assessing human performance and have a pretty advanced understanding of statistics (but not always of the calculations involved).

My friend and partner in crime, the late Dick White sucked me into his quest. To be honest he was looking for a way to get guys at the back of the fleet up to the front once in awhile. He was never successful. The exchange between JackDaw and I a few days ago was really helpful. It pushed my understanding of the system to a deeper level. When I get sometime I'll write and post about it on my website. In the mean time, I'm focused on getting the boat in the water and hoping the travel lift doesn't get stuck in the mud Monday when we pick it up.



Finally, it is a fair question to ask why am I pursuing the handicapping issue, especially since I no longer seriously compete and haven't for a few years. There are 3 reasons, first to honor my friend Dick White and his quest; second, because I think PHRF is flawed and it is hurting the sport; and third perhaps most rewarding is that I think this an interesting intellectual question with exciting possibilities.