PHRF conflicts with LWL -

Jul 1, 1998
3,062
Hunter Legend 35 Poulsbo/Semiahmoo WA
I almost knew that question would happen, and I think any "board" evaluation would not consider the circumstances and only look at the final figures, but here goes:

So much has gone by but I want to ask John why he feels so abused by a 4th place finish and just seconds out of 3rd place. To me it doesn't sound like the fleet handicapper had it that wrong about your boat given that you are not a regular racer. I agree that putting a Hobie 33 in your class may have been wrong but sometimes, if there aren't enough boats, stuff like that happens.
Kind of a long story but will try to shorten it up as much as possible. [Edit: on the map, our course is Blue, the fleet is Green]
My crew was a friend of mine who had a Union 36, that's a double-ended bowsprit Taiwan cutaway keel boat. We did pick up two other crew, a girl who was on Craig's List and someone the "Kiwi Express" lent to me (really didn't need anyone else though. Turned out he just added weight to the boat, if not worse, because all he did was watch the other boats and distract us by telling everybody where they were).
Anyhow, being my first ever PHRF race my crew, Mike (unfamiliar with my boat), was setting out the sail bag, sheets, halyard, topping lift, downhaul, and pole for the spinnaker getting it ready for the weather mark rounding. He asked how much longer until the start and looking at the watch I said that was almost 10 minutes ago! Dang!! HUGE mistake! we sailed under light air over to the start line but by now our class (and the rest of the fleet that had already started) was on a beam reach and seemed like halfway over to the other side of the channel. Since the boat seemed to be going well we decided to go close hauled against the flood and see if there was any way to make up for lost time, and we did. Wound up ahead of our class. Yea! Point "A" on map.

Big Mistake (I think): There was a Cal 40 beating up the main channel and we assumed he was in our class and started to duke it out with him and were keeping up. Point "B" Our class (and the rest of the fleet) went into Skunk Bay (Point "C") where the surface was like glass and because our boat speed and wind was good we kept dueling it out with the Cal 40, but against a really strong flood.
Downwind: Rounding the weather mark (Point "D") we were the LAST boat in a fleet of about 120 boats. By now the flood was in full force. Had a hell of a time rounding that mark in light air but finally made it. By now the fleet and their spinnakers had done a horizon job on us. Setting the chute we set off down the main channel and, low and behold, were catching up with them. By now the flood was nearly finished and the ebb was starting. What gives?

As it turned out, the fleet was literally standing still balanced by the tailwind but against the ebb tide ripping over a shoal area (Point "E"). We stayed in the main channel where the current wasn't quite as strong and caught up with them but way to starboard of the rhumb line. Hmmm... so I sailed past the last turning point buoy, tacked to it and by now we were ahead of the fleet except for the sleds, rounded the buoy under very light air (Point "F")and with the ebb flowing strong, we used the boat momentum to make the rounding then headed back out to the main channel again while being sucked back with the ebb until we got into deeper water, then laid the finish line (Point "G"). It took quite a while for those in the fleet to figure out what we did and then they followed suit. Sometime later "Kiwi Experess" passed us and then the Hobie 33. The C&C 34 (Boat of the Year) almost caught us.

The race committee never blew the horn as we finished so we had to wave arms, I think because we didn't have any race numbers. When we did hear the horn I'm not totally sure it was for us as it could have been for one of the other finishers.

We only had the symmetrical spinnaker and it would have been nice to have a reacher of some type due to the tight wind angle. The racers come more fully equipped with sail inventory so they have choices. Don't know what ever happened to the Cal 40, may have been going north on their cruise for all we know.

With regard to the PHRF fee, which seems to me what you are really upset about, I don't know why they do that. It is a bad policy that is keeping at least one boat off the race course.
I was more upset with myself for knot talking to the right people and not getting myself more informed. The Measurer/Handicapper for Westsound was trying to go on vacation to Hawaii and apparently "kinda pulled a number out of a hat" without doing very much research. The feeling I get is for the new guys the handicappers prefer to err on the high side or they'll get chastised by the established group. I neither has the time nor the interest in arguing my case. Epilog: The skipper I crewed for before getting my own boat a few years later became President of PHRF Northwest. When I told him my story there was no support or sympathy what so ever "That's the way it is" and that hurt.

The weight issue: When I had the 356 I used to argue that there should be a division of cruising boats that are required to have a grill, corian counters, three anchors and chain, dacron sails, ..... and towing a dingy (As long as it they do it for every race) so that those loaded cruising boats could get in on the fun. I was only half kidding. A lot of sailors don't want to make endless trips to the car for an afternoon diversion. I think there really needs to be an accommodation to the less competitive part of the fleet that could get those cruising boats off their moorings and into the fun.
It would be really nice but .... it'll probably never happen. Actual vs. spec'ed weight correction factor would be a possibility. Just had our boat out for a bottom paint job and the lift operator said we weighed 8 tons using his uncalibrated gauge. That's 16,000 lbs vs the spec'd 12,600 lbs. I think his gauge is off I know we're a LOT heavier than new.
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Aug 3, 2012
2,542
Performance Cruising Telstar 28 302 Watkins Glen
Actually, light weight is the biggest factor for any given length.
Quite so! Compare the weight of my 272 at 5375 lbs dry to my Telstar 28 at 3000 lbs dry, and what do you get? At over 1 ton heavier, the 272 goes less than 1/2 the speed of the Telstar. There are other factors here such as sail area which favor the Telstar as well, but weight is a big one. Now a real problem for the Telstar in terms of racing is that there is no PHRF for it that I can find. I will have to build one by racing in a club if I want one.
 
Nov 8, 2010
11,386
Beneteau First 36.7 & 260 Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
Handicappers will in the absence of great data ALWAYS give a new/unknown boat a number that errors on the fast side. The rational is that if its wrong, a fast number only hurts the one boat. A slow number hurts the every other boat in the fleet.
 
Nov 8, 2010
11,386
Beneteau First 36.7 & 260 Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
Quite so! Compare the weight of my 272 at 5375 lbs dry to my Telstar 28 at 3000 lbs dry, and what do you get? At over 1 ton heavier, the 272 goes less than 1/2 the speed of the Telstar. There are other factors here such as sail area which favor the Telstar as well, but weight is a big one. Now a real problem for the Telstar in terms of racing is that there is no PHRF for it that I can find. I will have to build one by racing in a club if I want one.
;^) Well you can never compare monos to multis on ratings anyway.

But for any given length, the boat with the smaller Light Displacement value will be faster 99% of the time, even if the SA/D ratios are the same or close.

Also, you might have classes for boats full of crap, but you'll never get a credit for it. It racing people! If you wanna run a marathon in hiking boots go ahead, but don't expect a head start for it.
 
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Nov 8, 2010
11,386
Beneteau First 36.7 & 260 Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
I almost knew that question would happen, and I think any "board" evaluation would not consider the circumstances and only look at the final figures, but here goes:


Kind of a long story but will try to shorten it up as much as possible. [Edit: on the map, our course is Blue, the fleet is Green]
My crew was a friend of mine who had a Union 36, that's a double-ended bowsprit Taiwan cutaway keel boat. We did pick up two other crew, a girl who was on Craig's List and someone the "Kiwi Express" lent to me (really didn't need anyone else though. Turned out he just added weight to the boat, if not worse, because all he did was watch the other boats and distract us by telling everybody where they were).
Anyhow, being my first ever PHRF race my crew, Mike (unfamiliar with my boat), was setting out the sail bag, sheets, halyard, topping lift, downhaul, and pole for the spinnaker getting it ready for the weather mark rounding. He asked how much longer until the start and looking at the watch I said that was almost 10 minutes ago! Dang!! HUGE mistake! we sailed under light air over to the start line but by now our class (and the rest of the fleet that had already started) was on a beam reach and seemed like halfway over to the other side of the channel. Since the boat seemed to be going well we decided to go close hauled against the flood and see if there was any way to make up for lost time, and we did. Wound up ahead of our class. Yea! Point "A" on map.

Big Mistake (I think): There was a Cal 40 beating up the main channel and we assumed he was in our class and started to duke it out with him and were keeping up. Point "B" Our class (and the rest of the fleet) went into Skunk Bay (Point "C") where the surface was like glass and because our boat speed and wind was good we kept dueling it out with the Cal 40, but against a really strong flood.
Downwind: Rounding the weather mark (Point "D") we were the LAST boat in a fleet of about 120 boats. By now the flood was in full force. Had a hell of a time rounding that mark in light air but finally made it. By now the fleet and their spinnakers had done a horizon job on us. Setting the chute we set off down the main channel and, low and behold, were catching up with them. By now the flood was nearly finished and the ebb was starting. What gives?

As it turned out, the fleet was literally standing still balanced by the tailwind but against the ebb tide ripping over a shoal area (Point "E"). We stayed in the main channel where the current wasn't quite as strong and caught up with them but way to starboard of the rhumb line. Hmmm... so I sailed past the last turning point buoy, tacked to it and by now we were ahead of the fleet except for the sleds, rounded the buoy under very light air (Point "F")and with the ebb flowing strong, we used the boat momentum to make the rounding then headed back out to the main channel again while being sucked back with the ebb until we got into deeper water, then laid the finish line (Point "G"). It took quite a while for those in the fleet to figure out what we did and then they followed suit. Sometime later "Kiwi Experess" passed us and then the Hobie 33. The C&C 34 (Boat of the Year) almost caught us.

The race committee never blew the horn as we finished so we had to wave arms, I think because we didn't have any race numbers. When we did hear the horn I'm not totally sure it was for us as it could have been for one of the other finishers.

We only had the symmetrical spinnaker and it would have been nice to have a reacher of some type due to the tight wind angle. The racers come more fully equipped with sail inventory so they have choices. Don't know what ever happened to the Cal 40, may have been going north on their cruise for all we know.


I was more upset with myself for knot talking to the right people and not getting myself more informed. The Measurer/Handicapper for Westsound was trying to go on vacation to Hawaii and apparently "kinda pulled a number out of a hat" without doing very much research. The feeling I get is for the new guys the handicappers prefer to err on the high side or they'll get chastised by the established group. I neither has the time nor the interest in arguing my case. Epilog: The skipper I crewed for before getting my own boat a few years later became President of PHRF Northwest. When I told him my story there was no support or sympathy what so ever "That's the way it is" and that hurt.


It would be really nice but .... it'll probably never happen. Actual vs. spec'ed weight correction factor would be a possibility. Just had our boat out for a bottom paint job and the lift operator said we weighed 8 tons using his uncalibrated gauge. That's 16,000 lbs vs the spec'd 12,600 lbs. I think his gauge is off I know we're a LOT heavier than new.
View attachment 137635
WOW! Here is what I would suggest..

Get a good crew, START ON TIME, and sail as competitively as you can.

Then start looking at the corrected times vs boats similar to yours. If the differences are minutes, then NO WAY a bump in your rating is going to save you. If you are consistently losing by a few seconds per mile, then maybe. But its going to take time. But for sure first you have to have good data.
 
Jun 2, 2007
403
Beneteau First 375 Slidell, LA
You were 10 minutes late for the start and still finished seconds out of 3rd place, in the only race you participated in, and you think your rating is off? Actually, in our area, no consideration is given to point-to-point races, because they are typically such a crapshoot in terms of wind and current (as you found out). To appeal a rating you need to present a substantial history of windward-leeward finishes. And good luck if your boat is any kind of well-established class.
 
Feb 26, 2004
22,760
Catalina 34 224 Maple Bay, BC, Canada
The "solution" to PHRF is one-design racing fleets. If a bunch of folks at a yacht club wish to each buy a certain class of yacht and race against other owners with the same class yacht, then you're good. Regional races would be one-design classes only, etc.; no PHRF.
This is very close to what we did on San Francisco Bay since 1987! Except that we kept PHRF, and I'll explain why. This and your followup post are very interesting.

We always had a solid group of racers. Some would sail only to race, others sailed, cruised and raced. I bought my boat in 1998, a decade after the earlier skippers had been sailing and racing (and some of them are STILL racing their boats - I'm hull #224 1986, hull #8 also 1986 still races and wins).

We found out some very important things. One, we always had a large enough group to race one design, with our own starts among fleets with six or more other starting divisions/groups. On The Bay we entered both a six race summer series and a six race winter series, each with our own starts. We also ran a three or two day multiple race Catalina 34 National Regatta or San Francisco Cup series. In these, we eventually split them up into a racing and cruising division.

We limited headsails to 130% maximum with dacron only sails to avoid major $$ fights over more exotic materials. We developed our own PHRF because, as many here have stated, not all even one-design boats are identical. Issues that factored in were jib sizes (some of us only had 110s), furling gear, height off the deck for the jibs and type of prop (two blade, three blade, folding), and keel (wing or fin).

Over the course of these last 30 years (!!! more than a quarter of a century !!!), the ratings were adjusted slightly. Eventually, maybe 5 to 8 years ago, all of the racing group - which included the original skippers AND new owners - ended up with identical ratings because they all eventually invested in folding props. The only ONE skipper who has a different rating has a tall rig, but he races successfully because the handicaps are fair.

I raced for six or seven years in the summer and winter series with my favorable rating because we didn't have a 130 and did have to drag around our bucket of a three blade fixed prop! :) There were a few races where we ended up coming in ahead of boats that beat us over the finish line because of our PHRF numbers. That's what PHRF is all about.

In our only-Catalina 34 races, I could never compete with the racing group, which is why we made it two divisions, and were able to attract many new skippers to racing that way. Many of them "moved up" to the racing division. Once that two division idea was implemented, I did manage to happily improve our results consistently over the years. We learned tactics, strategy, Bay currents, roundings and starts.

Having a much more even playing field made all the difference in having fun.

I recognize that not everyone can have the "luxury" of having such a robust core group of fair-minded skippers with the same boat. But to reflect KG's point, we learned that not all one-design classes can ignore PHRF until such time as they fairly even out the ratings to eliminate the differences altogether, as we did in our racing division. Our cruising division still uses it, because some of them have wing keels, for example.

I never could get a handicap for my barbecue and outboard motor on the pushpit! :banghead::):):)
 
Jan 13, 2009
391
J Boat 92 78 Sandusky
Wow! You are lucky to even get to race. Just show up with incomplete measurement information about the boat, no sail measurement, no verification and get a temporary rating so that you can race. Seems pretty charitable to me. Try that in IRC or ORR and wait 4-6 weeks after you have paid a measurer for a full measurement. Normal practice in our 500 boat PHRF area is submit an application before April 15th and have the 15 person handicap committee research the boat and assign a rating. If you apply later than that you get a temporary rating assigned by the chief handicapper which is valid until the next meeting which is in October.
As far actual weight vs listed weight on boats it is all over the map. I was an IRC measurer and weighed a lot of points. The standard was that you used a certified single lifting point digital load cell scale. All equipment and stores were removed from the boat including sails. After weighing about 20 boats I was surprised to find out that about 50% were a couple of 100lb over their design weight, 10% were slightly under design weight and the remaining 40% were 500-2000 lb over design weight. Obviously some boats have a marketing brochure weight which is way off.
Waterline lengths are misleading too. Depending on hull overhangs they can vary a lot. A good rule of thumb is to add the Length overall and waterline length together divide by 2 to get a more accurate picture of the sailing waterline length.
 
Jul 27, 2011
4,989
Bavaria 38E Alamitos Bay
One other thing to your points, Stu. Where a club or foundation maintains a fleet of one-design boats such that the boats are assigned "randomly" among the skippers and crew for each race, the following alternatives might occur. One or two of the boats win(s) consistently irrespective of skipper/crew; OR one or two skippers with various crews win(s) consistently irrespective of which boat they are in. If the latter, then folks quit grumbling about the shortcomings of the boat they are sailing. They (and we!) start to believe that the variance in boat performances is, in fact, due mostly to skill of the skipper(s)--as it should be.:biggrin:
 
Feb 26, 2004
22,760
Catalina 34 224 Maple Bay, BC, Canada
They (and we!) start to believe that the variance in boat performances is, in fact, due mostly to skill of the skipper(s)--as it should be.:biggrin:
Yup, you mailed it. That's what happened in the old Congressional Cup raced in those unique Catalina 37s, IIRC.
 
Jan 11, 2014
11,323
Sabre 362 113 Fair Haven, NY
Having a much more even playing field made all the difference in having fun.
Absolutely!

After weighing about 20 boats I was surprised to find out that about 50% were a couple of 100lb over their design weight, 10% were slightly under design weight and the remaining 40% were 500-2000 lb over design weight.
Just more evidence that class based handicaps are not the fairest way to go. As I understand some the measurement rules, identical boats can get slightly different handicaps. If that is correct, then it is a good attempt to level the playing field, but at a pretty large expense for a casual racer.
 
Jul 27, 2011
4,989
Bavaria 38E Alamitos Bay
I suppose it's possible that among boats that stay in the water all of the time some might acquire more hydration than others; i.e., gain water weight. Although the boats are "identical" in the most easily observable respects, there might be slight differences in potential performance, etc. But, you'd need championship-level class racing to detect it, likely. We're talking here about where the crew of the winning boat blows its spinnaker sheet a milisecond before the others on a down-wind finish so its near-flagging chute crosses the finish line first, winning by a fraction of second/boat length.:yeah:
 
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Nov 8, 2010
11,386
Beneteau First 36.7 & 260 Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
Just more evidence that class based handicaps are not the fairest way to go. As I understand some the measurement rules, identical boats can get slightly different handicaps. If that is correct, then it is a good attempt to level the playing field, but at a pretty large expense for a casual racer.
At the highest levels of ORC and ORR, there is no such thing as an identical boat. EVERY boat is weighted and measured, and has a rating certificate based on that. As other have pointed out, even so-called One Design boats can vary in construction weight by 100 or more pounds. In production cruisers, the difference can be 2-4 times that.

So-called 'club certificates' are cheaper and easier to get because that are based on sister-ship measurements. But they cannot be used in larger regattas.
 
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Jan 13, 2009
391
J Boat 92 78 Sandusky
One design ain't necessarily one design. If it was, the skippers could switch boats after every race and the results would be the same. Case in point, buddy who sails at a neighboring club bought a J-24 to compete in his clubs new 7 boat fleet. He actually bought 3 J-24s. One to get a trailer (he scrapped the boat), one that he sold off when he determined it was too expensive and time consuming to bring up to standards, and one that had a faired keel and rudder by Waterline systems along with a mast shortened to class minimums. Bottom line is that he has been instantly competitive in boat speed. His finishes have been top 3 out of 7 and losses mostly due to skipper error and/or substandard crew work. The 4 boats in the back of the fleet are just not competitive due to lack of raw boat speed. They are all J-24s.
 
Jul 27, 2011
4,989
Bavaria 38E Alamitos Bay
A J-24 with a dirty bottom; old, baggy sails, and that's full of junk is still a J-24, and if racing w/ other J-24s not in that sloppy condition would still be racing one-design. The point is that the boats are of the same basic design--same length, and with the same basic sail plan; same SA/DL ratios and other specifications, etc. A J-24 racing against a B-25 would not be one-design (as there are two designs represented); so you need to handicap the boats so they can race together competitively-PHRF; the much faster B-25 "owing time" to the J. The possibility that two boats of the same design class are not exactly alike in every respect, including up-keep and the age of equipment (or crew), has no effect on their one-design status, etc. Variances within-class are kept to a minimum by class rules. For example, everyone has to have a cross-cut Dacron mainsail to race in class. (No Kevlar sails allowed.)
 
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Nov 8, 2010
11,386
Beneteau First 36.7 & 260 Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
One design ain't necessarily one design. If it was, the skippers could switch boats after every race and the results would be the same. Case in point, buddy who sails at a neighboring club bought a J-24 to compete in his clubs new 7 boat fleet. He actually bought 3 J-24s. One to get a trailer (he scrapped the boat), one that he sold off when he determined it was too expensive and time consuming to bring up to standards, and one that had a faired keel and rudder by Waterline systems along with a mast shortened to class minimums. Bottom line is that he has been instantly competitive in boat speed. His finishes have been top 3 out of 7 and losses mostly due to skipper error and/or substandard crew work. The 4 boats in the back of the fleet are just not competitive due to lack of raw boat speed. They are all J-24s.
One Design was never intended to take into account CONDITION. Its simply described what you can and cannot do the base boat as delivered from the manufacture. The J24 class is 43 years old. Not rare to find one thats trailer is worth more than the hull.

However, fleets of boats used for HS/college racing and match racing ARE held to that standard.... interchangeable boats.
 
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May 25, 2012
4,333
john alden caravelle 42 sturgeon bay, wis
fun facts: fishing is one thing, catching is something totally different. racing is one thing, winning is something totally different.

if you buy a brand new one design sailboat, the first thing you do is 'blue print' the boat if your desire is to win.
 
May 25, 2012
4,333
john alden caravelle 42 sturgeon bay, wis
................ ,but even a blind mouse finds finds the cheese once in a while :)
 
Apr 30, 2013
2
Hunter 35.5 Otterbay
You are right. I raced with our club in the cruising division, but one by one the cruisers all left or bought race boats.
I could not race with the likes of the J Boats. So I went to the local Sailing PHRF guys and asked to adjust my rating so at least I would be in the game. I based our rating to that of the Med. colomn of the listed US sailing PHRF. This seemed to the area where most of my competion was listed. Which also gave me a fighting chance.
They rejected the request, so now they have one less boat competing, and the club numbers are depleting. Who wants to race when there is no chance of getting off the bottom. You want a glimmer of hope for yourself and the crew who come out.
we have done all the right things to help the boat go faster, new sails, clean bottom, good crew etc. We cannot make one mistake or our chances of coming off the bottom are slashed. I have seen other boats round up, have a terrible take down of sails etc. and we still have no chance.
So if the PHRF is to provide equal playing field, it is not working. The same faster boats always win, and its not always the crew.

Its too bad because the sport is dieing because of it.
 
Jan 11, 2014
11,323
Sabre 362 113 Fair Haven, NY
Sparky,

Not sure which post you are responding to, however, you are an example of what I have repeatedly cited here and elsewhere about the sport.

Ultimately this is a political issue (not a national political issue, we have enough of those right now). The people who control PHRF are people who like to race and are willing to put forth a lot of effort to race and win. Casual racers don't get involved in the governance of the sport, they just want to go out and see if they can beat someone once in a while, have a few beers, and then tell lies back at the club house.

Unfortunately, there is no leadership in US Sailing willing to address this issue. Maybe when the social and cruising members of the various clubs get tired of subsidizing the racing fleets that will change.

The simple answer to the issue is to assign ratings based on the individual boat/skipper combination, base that rating on actual performance, and review the ratings at least annually. I've outlined one path to that on my website, SV-SecondStar.net.