P42 how close are you able to sail to the wind

Discussion in 'Big Boats' started by Puesta del sol, Jun 19, 2019. Add this thread to a FAQ

  1. Puesta del sol

    Puesta del sol

    Joined Jan 1, 2014
    123 posts, 8 likes
    Hunter 42
    US Upper Chesapeake
    How close are you able to sail into the wind? close hauled to about 35 deg.

    Can I do better.

    1991 passsge 42
    Batten main, loose at the boom
    150 Genoa roller furling
    2010 north sails - fairly heavy
     


  2. jssailem

    jssailem

    Joined Oct 22, 2014
    9,590 posts, 4,306 likes
    CAL 35 Cruiser
    US Salem, Moored Port Everett WA
    Can you control physics?
    http://newt.phys.unsw.edu.au/~jw/sailing.html
    Here is a write up of the physics of sailing with vectors and forces identified. Your P42 is limited in speed by weight, hull shape, and drag. So suspect your 35 degrees may be apparent wind angle but 45 true. Or your speed is reduced by attempting to sail so close to the angle of the wind.
     


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  3. Puesta del sol

    Puesta del sol

    Joined Jan 1, 2014
    123 posts, 8 likes
    Hunter 42
    US Upper Chesapeake
    Got the physics part (that is a nice link) ... mainly looking to see if I am truly getting the best I can given the design trade offs made by the designer and manufacturer that made this a comfy cruising boat versus a highly tuned racer.

    Can definitely tell the sweet spot just ( the sails seem to set well visual based on tell tales) before speed loss as moving closer to the wind.
     


  4. Terry Cox

    Terry Cox

    Joined Dec 25, 2000
    3,805 posts, 563 likes
    Hunter Passage 42
    US Shelter Bay, WA
    Hi Keith, ditto here. The ST-50 wind instrument on our boat gives a pretty good gauge relative to wind angle. Belle-Vie does quite well up to around 28 degrees apparent. Power begins to reduce below that, but so so to around 25 degrees. If I see a strong puff approaching I will pinch to about that as the puff arrives to reduce pressure on the boat. Once it passes I'll turn back to regain boat speed.
     


  5. Puesta del sol

    Puesta del sol

    Joined Jan 1, 2014
    123 posts, 8 likes
    Hunter 42
    US Upper Chesapeake
    I have definitely taken advantage of the gusts to improve my line. I was going to put this out there as well ... how do you setup your jib sheets? Not happy with my current as sometimes the line falls below the winch when hauling when winds are 15+. Don’t have picture of my current setup will take one this weekend
     


  6. Terry Cox

    Terry Cox

    Joined Dec 25, 2000
    3,805 posts, 563 likes
    Hunter Passage 42
    US Shelter Bay, WA
    Unsure of the nature of your situation. Our genoa sheet layout remains as they came from Hunter. I've made a few mods, such as a plastic shroud pipe to stop shroud sheet chafe. Each sheet extends from the genoa clew cringle, to the cheek turning block back by the aft cabin, then forward to each winch. Never had a problem with the sheet falling off the winch, even in apparent winds of 25+ close hauled, or in any angle of attack.

    I'll try to remember to take pics of our setup as well, but I suspect they should be the same.
     


  7. Joe

    Joe

    Joined Jun 1, 2004
    6,705 posts, 444 likes
    Catalina 27
    US Mission Bay, San Diego
    According to your description you do not use an adjustable lead block which would control the leech and foot tension on your genoa .... a very important element of headsail trim. Although the aft mounted cheek block works well as a turning block because it maintains a constant angle to the winch you still need some way of controlling the lead angle of the sheet from clew to deck. If this is the case I suggest you reconsider your setup by adding a pair of lead blocks, preferably on track mounted movable cars that allow you to adjust fore and aft movement of jib lead.
     


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  8. Jackdaw

    Jackdaw

    Joined Nov 8, 2010
    10,412 posts, 3,420 likes
    Beneteau First 36.7 & 260
    US Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
    The boat for sure has a genoa track, he just left it out of the description.
     


  9. Terry Cox

    Terry Cox

    Joined Dec 25, 2000
    3,805 posts, 563 likes
    Hunter Passage 42
    US Shelter Bay, WA
    It does, a long one with an adjustable car. Sorry for leaving that out. Just did not seem a part of Keith’s issue.
     


  10. Puesta del sol

    Puesta del sol

    Joined Jan 1, 2014
    123 posts, 8 likes
    Hunter 42
    US Upper Chesapeake
    Has a led block along the track that adjusts. It runs to the aft bock and then up to an winch (aft side of cockpit) I have two very large winches in line with the hatch at the front of the cockpit. These are great winches but a pain to use with dodger setup. The aft winch has issues when more that a single wrap is around it when pulling in jib. The angle up to the winch from the aft block just doesn’t seem to be the best. I will contend that often user inexperience likely comes into to play as I have a large variety of people that go out with us and often the winds are 8-12 and really not an issue at this wind speed/tacking speed.
     


  11. Terry Cox

    Terry Cox

    Joined Dec 25, 2000
    3,805 posts, 563 likes
    Hunter Passage 42
    US Shelter Bay, WA
    Normally use a minimum of three wraps, or four if the wind is up. That 150 genoa packs an enormous amount of power when the wind is 15+. Also loads of fun, especially close hauled with all sails up. Belle-Vie does pretty well up to 25, but over that time to take a tuck or two. Never had a problem with the winches or genoa sheets. Eager to see your pictures.

    So, in rereading your last post, it seems you have another set of winches aft of the two large ones in line with the forward part of the cockpit? Those are for the genoa. The aft ones, which we do not have, are for the staysail.
     


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  12. Joe

    Joe

    Joined Jun 1, 2004
    6,705 posts, 444 likes
    Catalina 27
    US Mission Bay, San Diego
    Your primary and secondary winches can be used in anyway you want. If the dodger prevents a clean entry of the sheet to the primary's drum, you might consider installing another turning or foot block to give the line the rear entry option. If the winch is too close to the dodger for you to get 360 deg grinding.... and you're forced to ratchet instead, you might consider moving the winch back far enough for the winch handle to clear. (On my smaller boat there is adequate clearance but I strip in the sheet by hand and ratchet the remaining line once it becomes tensioned because it's just easier on my body.)
    If the secondary winch you're using for your genoa sheet now seems to have enough power but you want a better entry angle... I would suggest relocating the turning block somewhere in front of the winch. Your genoa track may be long enough to do this easily.
     


  13. thinwater

    thinwater

    Joined Mar 26, 2011
    2,343 posts, 571 likes
    Corsair F-24 MK I
    US Deale, MD
    I assume you mean AWA, which is an inexact measure at best.

    What about the GPS tacking angle and SOG at a given windspeed? that will tell us far more.
     


  14. Gene Neill

    Gene Neill

    Joined Sep 30, 2013
    2,840 posts, 1,453 likes
    C-22, Albin Vega
    US central Florida
    I was going to suggest using the chartplotter (if so equipped) to determine maximum VMG for the "sweet spot" when close hauled.

    Am I off base?
     


  15. Terry Cox

    Terry Cox

    Joined Dec 25, 2000
    3,805 posts, 563 likes
    Hunter Passage 42
    US Shelter Bay, WA
    Hunter designed the boat so that the genoa winches were in the best location for maximum performance; ditto the staysail winches. If it were my boat, I would make alterations to the dodger so that genoa winch use was convenient and effective. Our dodger does not interfere with genoa winch use.
     


  16. Jackdaw

    Jackdaw

    Joined Nov 8, 2010
    10,412 posts, 3,420 likes
    Beneteau First 36.7 & 260
    US Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
    I'd suggest using a true digital compass to get heading, and not course. You course-to-course tracking angle will include side-slip, adding 5-10 degrees to the total. This is an interesting number of course, but not great for direct boat on boat comparison that always use heading.
     


  17. danstanford

    danstanford

    Joined Aug 2, 2010
    270 posts, 41 likes
    Beneteau 323
    CA Cobourg
    Curious why you say that AWA is inexact? I have always thought TWA was the inexact one by instruments since it is a calculated value while AWA is simply measured.
     


  18. Jackdaw

    Jackdaw

    Joined Nov 8, 2010
    10,412 posts, 3,420 likes
    Beneteau First 36.7 & 260
    US Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
    Because aparent wind is always relative to true wi d . Always calculate angles to true wind. It’s what the pros do.
     


  19. thinwater

    thinwater

    Joined Mar 26, 2011
    2,343 posts, 571 likes
    Corsair F-24 MK I
    US Deale, MD
    I'm not so sure. On boats that make a lot of leeway (the last cat I had), that is an important component of the tacking angle. I am assuming zero tide and current, of course. Of course, you should measure BOTH COG and heading for maximum learning. No disagreement there. I tend to look closely at leeway, because many cruising cats and non-board beach cats really need to be kept moving to limit leeway. It is an important balance.

    And yes, I meant AWA is not a great measure of pointing. In light winds the AWA will be less than in strong winds for the same pointing angle, for example, because of hull speed limitations and the effect of waves; the true wind will have increased disproportionately more than boat speed, and the rest is trig.
     


  20. Puesta del sol

    Puesta del sol

    Joined Jan 1, 2014
    123 posts, 8 likes
    Hunter 42
    US Upper Chesapeake
    Terry - Agree. Here are a few pics

    Other problem I have with using the larger winches is the tripping hazard leaving the cockpit.
     

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    Last edited: Jun 23, 2019