outboard for a Mac Classic D/S

[walt]

This next spring, Im thinking about a new outboard for my old Mac 26S mostly because I want electric start. I also want a 8 to 10 hp four stroke.

Sailing mostly in Colorado and especially sailing at a windy lake at 8600 feet, Ive had to deal with some hairy situations where being able to rotate the outboard pretty much saved my butt. So I have to this capability. The stock transom works nicely with the old Honda which came with the boat but unfortanetly doesnt allow a lot of the new outboards to rotate.

The two options Im thinking of (mostly because they are the only ones I know about)..

I understand the new Honda 8 to 10 HP outboard will rotate on the stock transom with a very small modification - not sure what the modificaiton is however. This outboard is a little more expensive and I dont know where Id even get it serviced in the Denver area.. but Im inclined to do the service myself regardless. Other than starting problems, my old Honda has been very reliable.

The Nissan/Tohatsu/Mercury 8 to 10 HP outboard will not fully rotate on the stock transom. But I could make a fixed bracket mounted just behind the stock transom which put the motor back about 4.5 inches (and maybe lower by 1 inch) and Im pretty sure would allow the motor to rotate. I like having the motor as far foward as possible just to keep the swing wieght low but 4.5 inches probably isnt going to matter much. I can easilly get this outboard, prices seem good and also, people seem to be happy with this motor.. This motor also comes in the bigfoot version which sounds like might be good for the sailboat?

Any other options? Remote control? Sumner, I think you were also considering an electric start outboard, what are you thinking..

 

[Sumner]

Good subject Walt and good timing as this has been on our minds also. Yes we are getting an outboard with electric start.

After our ...............

http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/MacgregorTrips-3-Powell09/09-10-9-Powell-09.html

............... situation on Lake Powell I feel it is extremely important that Ruth and I can both start the outboard. Not to sound melodramatic, but this really could be a matter of life or death in some situations. During that one I couldn't really start the outboard for a day or two and she is unable to start if period. Also if I would have been unable to get back to boat with the dingy and she couldn't of gotten the motor started and been able to leave or get to me it would have really been ugly. If you are sailing lakes where the worst that can happen to you is you and the boat wash up on a mud shore then maybe you can take chances. When you are some place like Lake Powell with sheer rock cliffs or even a lake like Kootenay in Canada, getting blown into land/rocks could be a very bad experience.

So what are we getting? Good question, but the Nissan/Tohatsu is leading the pack. We are very happy with the 5 HP Nissan that we have for the dingy, but that has also powered the Mac just fine when we had problems with the Honda like yours. I'm firmly convinced that under 'any' condition you would not know the difference between the 8 HP and the 9.8 HP. Saying that we will probably spend the extra $100 for the 9.8 since it is the same weight and later if we go to sell it the extra 1.8 HP might make it easier to sell to someone who does think they need the larger one.

I looked at the Honda's and Yamaha's, but can't justify the extra $600 or so. The one reason I did look at them was the power tilt, but now the Nissan has that also. Now that I put..................

http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/macgregor/outboard-3.html

....... the rope hoist on the present outboard I don't think us 'old folks' need the power tilt. The rope hoist is fast and very easy to both raise and lower the outboard and Ruth can handle it easily. I'll take some of the savings and buy some moorse cables and rig them to the shift lever and throttle, so that Ruth can reach those easily without having to reach over the tiller. I don't have much problems, but I'm taller and have longer arms. I'll probably also add.................

http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/macgregor/outside-18.html

......... a tiller arm to the outboard like on the Honda, so she can steer it easier also when that is needed. That brings us to your point of the Nissan's problem of not being able to turn in the motor well. I would sure like to hear from someone that is using one as to how far will it turn to port and starboard (approximate degrees). For us I don't think it needs to turn lock to lock. If it would turn say 30 degrees both ways doing that along with also turning the rudder would give us all the maneuverability we need. Now 90% of the time we don't have to turn the motor at all to maneuver, but looking at some marinas that have very narrow entrances to very narrow slips I could see where that could be important.

I'm hoping to not have to move the outboard off the transom if I can. If so I probably can make a mount, but if you have to buy one you might want to way that into the total cost vs. one that doesn't need one.

Hopefully others that have Hondas, Yamahas and Nissan/Tohatsu will weigh in and tell us what they like and don't like about what they have.

c ya,

Sum

 

[Robspan]

Walt,
We discussed the bracket on my boat on an earlier thread. The weather today is terrible but I'm going to the boat tomorrow and will try to take better pictures of the bracket and its attachment to the transom.

 

[timebandit]

Something you might be interested in--

http://powertiller.net/

 

[walt]

Robspan, yes this was the idea we had discussed. No hurry on the picture but I would like to see what it looks like. I think you may have posted a picture earlier?

I may also go with the Nissan/Tohatsu/Mercury. Id get a 9.9 hp since I lose some hp using the motor at 8600 feet. Note that on this outboard, the throtte/shift/start/kill are all on the "tiller".

I would need a fixed bracket to move this outboard back a little so that it can rotate. I looked at this outboard in a boat shop and it looked like about 4.5 inches farther back would allow the clamps to operate.. Ill have to investige a little more but I think this would also allow the outboard to fully rotate. Some like the 25 inch shaft, Id probably go with the standard long shaft but maybe drop the outboard about an inch with the new bracket.

I would fabricate the bracket myself as I dont think you can buy one which extends only 4.5 inches (plus it will be a nice winter project and not cost much) - Im thinking of using wood for the part the outboard clamps on to and fabricate the rest from aluminum/ aluminum angle/ stainless steel bolts.

Anyone have a suggestion for a good type of wood for the outboard clamp bracket? Three 3/4 inch thick wood peices with the grain at right angles and then epoxied together would be plenty strong. Maybe epoxy soaked Oak? Or???

FYI, enjoy the warm weather down south.. The attached pictures are from yesterday at the mountain lake I sail at. Its in the process of freezing over.

 

[Sumner]

..........This motor also comes in the bigfoot version which sounds like might be good for the sailboat?......

Walt what is the "bigfoot" version? Also are you saying the shift lever is on the tiller? I thought I saw it on the front side of the motor.

Are you thinking of getting the new power tilt model?

I wonder still how far they will rotate in the motor well? With my Honda I put a piece of plywood between it and the transom and that moved it back a little and was just enough for it to clear while rotated.

For the mount I would use 2 pieces of 5/8 or 3/4 plywood back to back and would probably just paint them and figure on replacing them somewhere down the road, but they could be made very quickly to bolt to the mount. The one I have for...............

........... the dingy outboard is a 2 X 6 bolted to an ........................

..........aluminum plate and painted and it looks fine ..............

http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/macgregor/outside-12.html

...............after the season (not painted above). Of course it just holds that outboard there, so there are no real forces on it. For the one you are building I would use the 2 layers of plywood for more strength, unless you could use a plate behind it like this one. I've always been told the CDX plywood has exterior glues in it (check with the lumber yard). If so it wouldn't look as nice as "good one side", but would cost a lot less. A 2 X 6 or 2 X 8 would even be cheaper and easier to cut and replace over time.

Personally I don't think we would ever see the difference between the 8 and the 9.8 on our boats, but I will buy the 9.8 for resale purposes. Getting the right prop is where it is at. I think we tend to think that a 9.8 is putting that out at all rpms and of course that isn't the case. Outboards just like every other engine have a power (HP) and torque (lb./ft.) curves. I'll bet that a 6 HP that is running at its peak power on the power curve at say 5500 rpm with the right prop to put it there at our hull speed is making more HP (the rated 6 HP) than an 8 or 9.8 HP that is proped wrong and is maybe running down in its power curve at say 4000 where it might only be making 5-6 HP.

This would even be more evident between the 8 and 9.8 if the 8 was running at the optimum rpm for power at hull speed vs. a 9.8 that was running down in its power band there. Our 6 hp Nissan had no problem with a high thrust prop pushing the Mac into 20-25 mph (measured) winds and waves on our first trip and that was at around 7000 ft. I didn't try and run hull speed, but we were running over 4 kts by the speed on the fish finder and on about 2/3 to 3/4 throttle. I agree that we should buy the 9.8, but not because it is ever going to be noticeable on our boats over the 8. Have you ever had to run you 8 at wide open throttle? I haven't with mine, but I've also re-proped mine with a higher thrust prop.

I still wish some of the guys on here would weigh in with what is working for them in the terms of an electric start outboard. It would be helpful.

c ya,

Sum

Our Trips to Lake Powell, UT - Kootenay Lake, Canada - Priest Lake, ID

Our Mac Pages

Mac Links

 

[walt]

Big foot has a gear ratio of 2:42 :1 and the regular is 2.08 :1. The big foot is also heavier 96 pnd vs 84 pnd "dry". I think the extra weight would be enought to not consider the big foot but maybe its better for pushing a displacement sailboat? Its probably more expensive.
http://www.mercurymarine.com/engines/outboards/fourstrokes/enginesetfour_specs.php?ID=74

On the tiller, if you start in nuetral, turn it one direction to put in forward, keep turning the same direction to increase throttle. Turn the opposite direction to go back through neutral then more for reverse, reverse throttle.

Someone hopefully gives better details but I understand the Mercury/Tohatsu will rotate a fair amount (adequate) in one direction but has fairly limited rotation in the other direction. Not everyone needs the rotation.. but it is very important to me.

Power tilt - Nope. I only need the electric start.

About a year ago, Ottowa Bob (who now has a Hunter 260) noted that some of the electric start outboards must have a battery to run - regardless of the electric start. He had a newer Honda. I would guess that the Mercury/Tohatsu electric start will run with no battery (pull start) but am not sure??

Edit - the outboard with the shift on the tiller that I saw was a Mercury. But the Tohatsu looks to be different with a shifter somewhere on the engine. I always thought these were identical, maybe not..

 

[Sumner]

I can't find the bigfoot or some of that other stuff on the Nissan/Tohatsu. I have a feeling it must only be on the Mercury versions.

A picture of the shift lever. I think this will be easier to use than what we have on our present Hondas and maybe easier to extend upwards towards the lazarette seat.

I think the Mercury's are quite a bit more expensive than the Tohatsus. I think you are right that the Tohatsu will run without a battery and has the rope start that is always available.

Go buy one and let me know how far it turns ,

Sum
http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/macgregor/outboard-related-index.html

Our Our Ourboard Stuff..........

Our Mac Pages

Mac Links

 

[walt]

Buy one to see how much it turns.. that would be my standard MO.. good chance things will work out that way.

This also looks interesting and solves the rotation problem. The controller could be mounted somewhere in the transom well. Its an extra $800 however. You would probably want to trim the cables, dont know how hard this would be.

http://www.onlineoutboards.com/Tohatsu-9-8-hp-MFS9-8A3EPL.html

Some will point out the service issue - buy from someone you can get service from. I did this with the first outboard I bought.. I think the shop saw me as a couple hundred dollar bills every time I walked in the door. One time, I spent $300 to not get a problem fixed.. ended up doing it myself. This outboard is a 4 hp Tohatsu. Last year, I tried to buy some parts for it at a different place which sells the Mercury outboards (and the identical Mercury 4 hp). The service guy acted like he didnt know the Tohatsu and Mercury were the same motor and he could not help. I dont think it was his first hour on the job. Left me wondering if I didnt spend $500 a year with these guys on servcie would I get the same attitude (I wont buy an outboard from them). I found the parts I needed on line - and was happy with where I bought them. Id like to support local business but my experiences were just not that good.

 

[Sumner]

Buy one to see how much it turns.. that would be my standard MO.. good chance things will work out that way.

This also looks interesting and solves the rotation problem. The controller could be mounted somewhere in the transom well. Its an extra $800 however. You would probably want to trim the cables, don't know how hard this would be.

http://www.onlineoutboards.com/Tohatsu-9-8-hp-MFS9-8A3EPL.html

Some will point out the service issue - buy from someone you can get service from. I did this with the first outboard I bought..............

The remote is like what I want to do so that it will be easy for Ruth to work and reach. $800 is a fair amount for what I can probably make for less than $30 worth of materials minus the morse cables that you still have to buy with that kit. Mine won't be as pretty as theirs, but hopefully it will work as well. Did you see where they can't ship that model? You have to order the tiller model and the kit separately and install it yourself. Probably not a big deal.

Are you saying that it will solve the rotation problem since it is the tiller handle that hits? If you got the remote then would you put a tiller handle on the top of the motor like I've done or are you thinking about buying the remote and the remote steering package and hooking that to something.

I've looked at the one timebandit posted a link for before. It also is fairly expensive, but not overly so if you figure the time to make it, but I really don't want something mounted to the tiller. I could see it being handy there at times, but not so other times. If I remember right it at least comes with the cables.

I'm buying off the Internet. I don't have a choice. The nearest dealer is probably 300+ miles away in either Salt Lake City or in Albuquerque and then there is Phoenix 400 miles away. Those would be long trips for service.

c ya,

Sum

Our Trips to Lake Powell, UT - Kootenay Lake, Canada - Priest Lake, ID

Our Mac Pages

Mac Links

 

[walt]

I would guess its the "elbow" on the tiller which hits - but dont know. On my Honda, I have to tilt the tiller up to rotate it and its not much of an issue. Looks like the remote models have all the tiller stuff removed so should easilly rotate. Most of the time, the outboard is just locked to center. To turn, you would have to fabricate something so that maybe the outboard could be connected to the rudder tiller.

Another option would be to just bolt a peice of wood (some sort of laminate for strenght - maybe 2.25 inch thick) on the back of the transom so that wood peice stuck up maybe 2.5 inches above the current transom height. Then mount an extra long shaft outboard to this peice of wood. This would raise the outboard by about 2.5 inches and move it back about 2 inches. The extra long shaft would still put the prop 2.5 inches deeper in the water than a standard long shaft mounted directly on the transom. I would guess this would also solve the rotation problem. But.. it complicates the spare outboard mounting option..

 

[Robspan]

Walt,
Here are close up pictures of the fixed bracket on my boat. The top two bolts go through into the outboard well, and the bottom two into the lazarette. I haven't seen any adverse effects of having it there, and to my knowledge it's been there since the PO bought it new in 1994. It does look as if it could be shortened to get the motor closer to the boat without affecting manerverability.

 

[Sumner]

..........Another option would be to just bolt a piece of wood (some sort of laminate for strength - maybe 2.25 inch thick) on the back of the transom so that wood piece stuck up maybe 2.5 inches above the current transom height. Then mount an extra long shaft outboard to this piece of wood. This would raise the outboard by about 2.5 inches and move it back about 2 inches. The extra long shaft would still put the prop 2.5 inches deeper in the water than a standard long shaft mounted directly on the transom. I would guess this would also solve the rotation problem. But.. it complicates the spare outboard mounting option..

That might be a great idea as if you took the boat to the ocean like we are thinking you could remove the additional mount and put the outboard on the transom and have the prop down in the water further, which is very desirable in the ocean. I'll give this some serious thought, thanks.

If you are saying it complicates the spare outboard because it is a long shaft I think the new mount could be made to come off in just a few minutes if needed to mount the spare back down on the transom.

I like this a lot. I don't see the need for really tight maneuverability when going to the coast and sailing. The only down side is that it is going to cost about $85 more, but for the flexibility you would get that would be a bargain.

Rob thanks for the additional pictures,

Sum

Our Trips to Lake Powell, UT - Kootenay Lake, Canada - Priest Lake, ID

Our Mac Pages

Mac Links

 

[walt]

Robspan, very much appreciated. I think you also said this works fairly well.

Sumner, I like the removable bracket idea and the extra long shaft.

If someone has a newer 4 stroke Nissan or Tohatsu 8 to 9.9 hp, do you think moving the outboard up about 2.5 or 3 inches and back about 2 inches would allow it to fully rotate?

Edit.. the attached pictures shows the problem. Dimension are not exact so the picture is not conclusive.

 

[Carolyn1964]

tohatsu

I am thinking of the same engine for my 79 Venture 25. I have been hoping to hear from individuals who have used the engine. I will be sailing in Puget Sound and think the 25 inch shaft will be a good choice. I am not planning on modifying my motor bracket but I do wish it was easier to lift once I am underway. It is very awkward to try and lift the engine so I havemostly sailed with it down (which slows our speed but saves my arms). This has been my first year withte boat and the current 30 year old Johnson has been unrelieable so it is getting replaced. It was suggested that I get an upgraded prop for the motor so I figure what the heck I'll get one of those also. It would be great to hear from anyone who has experience with a Tohatsu

Carolyn1964

 

[Sumner]

.............I am not planning on modifying my motor bracket but I do wish it was easier to lift once I am underway. It is very awkward to try and lift the engine so I have mostly sailed with it down (which slows our speed but saves my arms). ...........Carolyn1964

Do you have a push-pit (railing) around the stern? If you do and maybe if you don't..............

.............you could hook up a block and tackle system similar to what I've done and what others have done.

I use three lines with mine. Only the main one goes to the block and tackle (top right arrow). That is the one you use to raise or lower the outboard. The other two are there to release the bail so you can pull it up or let it back down. The all are tied to the stanchion in the picture.

To raise the motor you take the main line in your right hand and the release line (bottom two arrows) in either your left hand or pull on it to release the bail and hold the line under your knee. Then just lift the motor.

To lower the motor you pull it forward with the main line and then release the bail that holds the motor up with the middle line in the picture that goes over the top and back of the outboard. You keep tension on it with your left hand so that it doesn't go back in and stop the outboard at a different tilt position and then let the main line slide through your right hand and lower the motor.

It is way easier than what all of this sounds and there is no more bending over the back of the motor and trying to do everything. Ruth can now easily lift the motor. Before I did this I thought the next motor needed to have power tilt on it. No more, I'll just put something like this on the next one.

There is more pictures and description here..................

http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/macgregor/outboard-3.html

......... The releases to raise and lower the motor are going to be different, but I'm pretty confident the same principal I've used could apply. Our Nissan 5 HP will come up while in neutral, so the one line isn't even needed.

If you do some google searches you will find most people are happy with their Nissan/Tohatsu motors. We like our 5 HP and would maybe just use it, but it doesn't have electric start and as I've mentioned before that is a safety feature we need now and realize after this.....

http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/MacgregorTrips-3-Powell09/09-10-9-Powell-09.html

c ya,

Sum

Our Trips to Lake Powell, UT - Kootenay Lake, Canada - Priest Lake, ID

Our Mac Pages

Mac Links

 

[walt]

Carolyn1964, the only bad thing Ive heard about the Tohatsu is that they are sensitive to gas quality - but that seems common with about any outboard now. Ive heard its quiet.. which should be nice..

Looking around at forum discussion, I also saw one person who had some sort of issue buying direct over the internet. Im not sure of the details but the normal sales method is to have a dealer check out the engine and make some final adjustments before the consumer gets the engine. Not having this could have some influence on how the factory treats warrenty issues. As mentioned, dont know the details but something to look into. I have another option from buying from a dealer which I will check out (Anchorage in Lyons CO- I have had only good experiences with them)

I also saw a couple discussions on high altitude. I found it odd calling 5000 feet "high altitude". At 5000 feet, Im almost chocking on too much Oxygen (brain has been starved and deprived for many years so is used to it).

discussion on prop for high altitude

http://nissantohatsupartsstore.com/3v2044900m.html

http://www.marineengine.com/discus/messages/12484/170662.shtml


Another reason for the extra long shaft... at Lake Powell, we have done a lot of motor sailing. Since the outboard is offset to one side, it rides higher when on port tack due to boat heel. If a gust hits, I would sometimes have the prop get too close to the surface and cavitate. Its the water intake I worry about so dont know if this is a real issue - but its certainly annoying and another reason for the Xtra long shaft.

I made a fixture based on the Tohatus drawings that Sumner posted to see how far back the Tohatsu would have to go an a 26C in order to fully rotate. This is based around the outboard rotation point and the elbow on the controll tiller which is what looks like causes the rotation limiting. Ill let you know what I find in a few days (visiting the boat tomorrow). Im guessing that I will end up with a bracket more similar to what Robspan posted - and possibly removable..

 

[Sumner]

.......discussion on prop for high altitude

http://nissantohatsupartsstore.com/3v2044900m.html

http://www.marineengine.com/discus/messages/12484/170662.shtml.

Walt for the prop I would go with a 7 pitch at least and here is one that they recommend for 'Heavy loads or for very high altitude'....

http://www.internetoutboards.com/partdetail.asp?id=725

I think for us I'd get this one as we would do most of our sailing under 5000 feet. We live at 6000 and you are right about going to lower altitudes and feeling supercharged ......

http://www.internetoutboards.com/partdetail.asp?id=226

Here is the link to the site where I found those.......

http://www.internetoutboards.com/product_list.asp?id=11

I'm working on drawings for what I think would be a simple to install and effective motor mount that would quickly adapt to either having the motor higher and a little rearward or down on the transom.

c ya,

Sum

Our Trips to Lake Powell, UT - Kootenay Lake, Canada - Priest Lake, ID

Our Mac Pages

Mac Links

 

[Sumner]

Walt here is a quick sketch of what I'm thinking....

The two side mounts could be made out of a wood aluminum plate sandwich, but I'll make them out of some billet aluminum. They would be 1 1/2 to 2 inches deep and about 3 inches wide and about 6 inches tall.

The arrows point to the holes where you would put the bolts to attach these to the transom. The top of the hole where the arrow is would be countersunk so that the bolt heads would be below the surface.

These blocks would stay on all the time, so you would only have to get down into the lazarette once to install the nuts for the bottom bolts. If you have the motor on the transom for coastal cruising the outboard would sit between these blocks on the transom.

To get the outboard up and back for lake sailing or when you need the outboard to swing lock to lock you would place a mount across the opening between the blocks and attach it to the blocks with the protruding bolts. I'd make the mount out of probably two pieces of 3/4 inch plywood with a piece of .090 or thicker aluminum plate covering the one side where the outboard clamp screws are located. Of course the mount could be made from a different combination of material to make it whatever thickness you wanted.

It would extend above the blocks also so the outboard could be attached to it. Either enough to screw the clamps or higher if you wanted the outboard to be in the water the same as a 20 inch long shaft.

If you are interested I could make drawings with measurements for the holes, but take this to a machine shop and they could do it quick and I'll bet you could buy these two blocks with the machining for the same as a universal mount. This would keep the motor controls closer to the boat. The weight forward and would be a couple minute job to change the mount configuration that wouldn't require getting into the lazarette to do it.

Since we want to go to the Florida Coast and maybe the Sea of Cortez the option to raise or lower the motor easily has an appeal. Maybe if you see mounting it once and leaving it where it is a store bought mount would work fine.

If you got me the aluminum I'd do the machine work on it for nothing.

c ya,

Sum

Our Trips to Lake Powell, UT - Kootenay Lake, Canada - Priest Lake, ID

Our Mac Pages

Mac Links

 

[walt]

Earlier this year, I made a removable bracket for a spare 4 hp I have (Lake Powell - you understand the need). Since this was a short shaft and wont work on the transom, I put some angle brackets under the ladder and a removable bracket. I stored both the outboard and the bracket in the Laz. There is a scrap aluminim place fairly close to where I work and has a very good selection of all sorts of shapes. You paid by the pound (cant remember the exact price but I think all the AL in the part shown was under $15. The bracket weight is about 8 pounds total. The wood is three pieces of 3/4 inch wood (possibly Oak, might even be Cedar?) epoxied together. I am thinking about doing the angle bracket thing again. I like the idea of the aluminum plate on one side of the wood bracket. I want to get an idea of how far back the bracket needs to extend also..

One other thing to consider with the removable mount is theft - especailly with a new very cool looking outboard. A good way to lock the outboard on the transom is to just put a lock between the two screw tabs. But if the entire bracket is too easy to remove, this wont work. Im not completely comfortable with a cable..

Ill send you a PM on the AL.