Opinions: Upgrades needed to get 22 ready for Bahama crossi

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Mar 1, 2013
37
Cal 20 Detroit
So crossing in a group how do you adjust for speed differences. My boat is not exactly slow but by no means can keep.up with a larger one in weather. There is so much to plan and consider just to make it ti Bimini or West End. I think that alone would be a feat in a 20 or 22 foot boat. 70 miles does not sound far but I got caught on Erie in bad weather in a 15' closed bow shallow v runabout about a mile and a half and that last mile was the longest mile I ever traveled. I had a 40 hp and could hardly make any headway. I had so called buddy boat and he had a deep v and pulled away from me quick. It was a hard dangerous lesson. It seems you can never learn enough about the weather and the water. Inland or ocean.
That being said I still believe there has to be a way to make the trip to Bimini safe. Potters and MacGregors do it every year. In any sailboat you do not want to fight the stream correct you would loose half your ground speed so you cross with the stream moving you NE right? I am on the Detroit River and the current can be a pain or a plus. I figure everyday I sail I learn more, so I just wanted to so thanks to everyone out here for the advise.
 
May 27, 2012
1,152
Oday 222 Beaver Lake, Arkansas
I didn't make this stuff up. That's what he's told us. Done.
Unfortunately this is one of those threads that will make most of us look bad, regardless of the outcome. Its been said by many, and I agree, that had Walbridge and the Bounty made it through Sandy, he would have been called a hero.

If this guy makes it back (or claims he did), we will all look bad for poo pooing it. If he doesnt make it, we may never know, but in either case, the thread will be here for some orther fool to follow.
 
Jan 22, 2008
880
Fed up w/ personal attacks I'm done with SBO
If this guy makes it back (or claims he did), we will all look bad for poo pooing it.
I respectfully disagree. If his voyage is successful - and I truly hope it is for the sake of all aboard - I'll have no regrets whatsoever for speaking my mind. It's the best advice I could offer and I'd do it again in a heartbeat. If he thinks little of me for what I said I'm fine with that, doesn't change a thing.

What makes us look bad is foolhardiness regardless of the outcome. It reflects badly on our pasttime and gives the general public pause as to the wisdom of those who do it.

Sometimes foolhardiness results in tragedy, other times not but a successful outcome is not necessarily an indication of the wisdom or lack thereof regarding the original scheme.
 
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Sep 19, 2010
525
Catalina 22 home
Re: Opinions: Upgrades needed to get 22 ready for Bahama cro

I know this thread is beaten to death, but it is an ideal example for the issue of risk assessment in adventurous pastimes. For many of us who like to throw our money and time into hobbies that include the risk of death, the object is to out-plan and out-prepare the risk so as to enjoy the adventure, knowing that it would take multiple unusual circumstances happening together before we were truly in danger. Then, while we're beating through rough seas, it is fully enjoyable for all on board. That is why many of us (and the initiator of this thread) ask questions and spend time preparing their vessel. Problems happen however, when a craft or its crew are NOT prepared for the intended risk. Then the venture becomes foolhardy. If one launches on a trip whose success depends on avoiding commonly encountered risks, like bad weather or the gulf current, it is no longer an adventure, but rather a roll of the dice.

Another component is the mention of family or children. Non-sailors rely on their Captain, and children have no say in whether they can avoid the trip. If a Captain starts a journey that is a roll of the dice rather than a properly planned adventure, he is needlessly and irresponsibly endangering innocent lives.

Often, the preparation and planning stages work to educate the Captain. He will determine that his vessel or his knowledge is inadequate in order to be properly and safely matched to the task; and that one, or both must be upgraded. Sailing is not like driving. All of us need to learn how to properly plan and prepare for commonly encountered risks and exercise a high level of responsible judgement, both in preparation and execution of any adventure. As they teach pilots: sometimes the best decision you make is to say "No." With proper effort to preparation, education, and exercise of good judgement, there are many wonderful adventures out there for us all.
 
May 27, 2012
1,152
Oday 222 Beaver Lake, Arkansas
I know this thread is beaten to death, but it is an ideal example for the issue of risk assessment in adventurous pastimes. For many of us who like to throw our money and time into hobbies that include the risk of death, the object is to out-plan and out-prepare the risk so as to enjoy the adventure, knowing that it would take multiple unusual circumstances happening together before we were truly in danger. Then, while we're beating through rough seas, it is fully enjoyable for all on board. That is why many of us (and the initiator of this thread) ask questions and spend time preparing their vessel. Problems happen however, when a craft or its crew are NOT prepared for the intended risk. Then the venture becomes foolhardy. If one launches on a trip whose success depends on avoiding commonly encountered risks, like bad weather or the gulf current, it is no longer an adventure, but rather a roll of the dice.

Another component is the mention of family or children. Non-sailors rely on their Captain, and children have no say in whether they can avoid the trip. If a Captain starts a journey that is a roll of the dice rather than a properly planned adventure, he is needlessly and irresponsibly endangering innocent lives.

Often, the preparation and planning stages work to educate the Captain. He will determine that his vessel or his knowledge is inadequate in order to be properly and safely matched to the task; and that one, or both must be upgraded. Sailing is not like driving. All of us need to learn how to properly plan and prepare for commonly encountered risks and exercise a high level of responsible judgement, both in preparation and execution of any adventure. As they teach pilots: sometimes the best decision you make is to say "No." With proper effort to preparation, education, and exercise of good judgement, there are many wonderful adventures out there for us all.
Well said. Very well said. He will still ask for it to be deleted though.
 
Nov 8, 2010
11,386
Beneteau First 36.7 & 260 Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
I know this thread is beaten to death, but it is an ideal example for the issue of risk assessment in adventurous pastimes. For many of us who like to throw our money and time into hobbies that include the risk of death, the object is to out-plan and out-prepare the risk so as to enjoy the adventure, knowing that it would take multiple unusual circumstances happening together before we were truly in danger. Then, while we're beating through rough seas, it is fully enjoyable for all on board. That is why many of us (and the initiator of this thread) ask questions and spend time preparing their vessel. Problems happen however, when a craft or its crew are NOT prepared for the intended risk. Then the venture becomes foolhardy. If one launches on a trip whose success depends on avoiding commonly encountered risks, like bad weather or the gulf current, it is no longer an adventure, but rather a roll of the dice.

Another component is the mention of family or children. Non-sailors rely on their Captain, and children have no say in whether they can avoid the trip. If a Captain starts a journey that is a roll of the dice rather than a properly planned adventure, he is needlessly and irresponsibly endangering innocent lives.

Often, the preparation and planning stages work to educate the Captain. He will determine that his vessel or his knowledge is inadequate in order to be properly and safely matched to the task; and that one, or both must be upgraded. Sailing is not like driving. All of us need to learn how to properly plan and prepare for commonly encountered risks and exercise a high level of responsible judgement, both in preparation and execution of any adventure. As they teach pilots: sometimes the best decision you make is to say "No." With proper effort to preparation, education, and exercise of good judgement, there are many wonderful adventures out there for us all.
Nicely said.

Only one semi-unrelated point to pick, 'captain' is a military rank or a title bestowed by the USCG for licensed master. Ordinary Joes (myself included) are NOT captains. It kinda bothers me when people call themselves 'captain'. Skipper maybe. Not captain.
 
May 27, 2012
1,152
Oday 222 Beaver Lake, Arkansas
Re: Opinions: Upgrades needed to get 22 ready for Bahama cro

Duly noted. My Uncle worked with a bunch of PHD's in Physics, but as his education was all Navy, my Uncle didnt have all those letters after his name. The egg heads got pretty irritated always having people call and refer to him as Dr.
 
Mar 1, 2013
37
Cal 20 Detroit
My boat is still frozen. I am dreaming about the Bahamas and I would be happy just sailing in circles on the Detroit river right now.
 
Jan 13, 2013
214
Catalina 22 Lake Champlain
Re: Opinions: Upgrades needed to get 22 ready for Bahama cro

Agreed! Just went past Mallet's Bay on Lake Champlain.

Solid ice.
 

kito

.
Sep 13, 2012
2,011
1979 Hunter Cherubini 30 Clemmons
Lake Jocassee can go from a beautiful sunny day to 50mph plus straight line winds in the matter of minutes. You cant see the storm clouds from over the mountains that surround the lake and by the time the wind hits the waves are 8ft plus breakers and it's too late. Parts of the lake are 300 or more ft deep. If you hear thunder in the distance find a sheltered cover ASAP.
Lake Jocassee? It's basically a pond. I have boated on Lake Jocassee many times. It may get rough but it's a very small lake and you can make shoreline within minutes for petes sake. But I guess if you can weather the mightly Jocassee you must be ready for a sail to Balize ;)
 
Mar 1, 2013
37
Cal 20 Detroit
Re: Opinions: Upgrades needed to get 22 ready for Bahama cro

I was at the Marina and lucked out. One of the members of the sail club is USCG aux and a ASA instructor. My boat only needs a few mods to the rigging but my skills need sharping. He is going ti spend the next 6 weeks working with me. cleaned bilges and did not sail. I learned more yesterday than I did last year. There is so much to do and learn,every time I talk to someone I realize how much more there is to learn. It is all fun from cleaning them to sailing them. I want to make the Bahamas this year but if it is next that is ok also
 
Jan 11, 2013
21
Catalina 22 Travelers Rest, SC
Re: Opinions: Upgrades needed to get 22 ready for Bahama cro

I'd have a tiller pilot,for sure. A roller furler. Going forward to change sails in high seas...you won't. I'm talking about block waves of the stream. Good VHF with mast antenna. But, don't expect help in The Bahamas. I listened to a lady scream for help for her husband. He died as she tried to get help for 30 mins or longer while pizza orders being called in, taxis, etc., etc., on Ch 16 overrode her calls. Yes..harbor/inlet hopping..no problem if you are watching the weather. Good dogs for the forward hatch, so when you submarine the bow, you don't get it ripped off. All lines led aft to cockpit. Jiffy reefing...got to have.. Solar panels for elect. Plenty of gas, as you will probably motor lots across the stream, and from west end all the way to another harbor with expensive gas and water. Several people have done the trip you plan successfully. No reason you can't!! With all the parts missing on your boat, might be cheaper to find a whole one. But, good luck no matter what! Sounds like the adventure of a lifetime. It was for me, but I was not on a 22, however. I would do it, though.
 
Mar 1, 2013
37
Cal 20 Detroit
I tokk her out today, thr sails were a handful. The wind turned me around and I did not even realize it at first. I have some more work to do. My lifelines are iffy at best. A roller furling, the sheets run aft bit not the halyards. I am going to be busy this year just getting up tp speed. my rigging is solid and has plates under the deck. I need to beef up the spreader brackets.
Once I get more time on it I will take it to North Carolina and do some Coastal cruising. I liked how it sailed, I was in 4 knot winds on the Detroit river and it got up to 10 on Lake St. Clair. It was fun, not the Bahamas yet but fun. After sailing lasers and sunfish the Cal was a dream. I am not ready for rough weather yet, but I believe the boat properly handled could take some. I guess most of us new sailors ask questions like that will know when both boat and skipper are ready. By the time I am I might have a bigger boat, but maybe not. I am going out on a 25 this week.
 
May 26, 2013
44
Catalina United States High Cliff State Park
Re: Opinions: Upgrades needed to get 22 ready for Bahama cro

I couldn't disagree with all the nay-sayers more. Watch this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=punvzv-XjDw

Dude, went 4000 miles in open ocean and through a low level hurricane. Is the cat 22 designed for open water? It is if you rig it for open water. Remember, Bob Manry crossed the Atlantic in a 13 foot wooden boat,"Tinkerbell". It's not the size of a boat that makes it sea-worthy, it is how it's rigged. And I think that is the spirit in which the original question is being asked. Be meticulous about the weather window, sail conservatively, and you'll be fine.
 
May 27, 2012
1,152
Oday 222 Beaver Lake, Arkansas
I couldn't disagree with all the nay-sayers more. Watch this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=punvzv-XjDw

Dude, went 4000 miles in open ocean and through a low level hurricane. Is the cat 22 designed for open water? It is if you rig it for open water. Remember, Bob Manry crossed the Atlantic in a 13 foot wooden boat,"Tinkerbell". It's not the size of a boat that makes it sea-worthy, it is how it's rigged. And I think that is the spirit in which the original question is being asked. Be meticulous about the weather window, sail conservatively, and you'll be fine.
So I take it then, that you see absolutely no problem taking a young child along on this boat for this adventure? Your so sure of your opinion you would allow your young child to go with him, and wave bon voyage from shore as they fall out of sight?

No one has a problem with this guy doing what he wants, we have a problem with exposing his kid to it.
 
Aug 3, 2012
2,542
Performance Cruising Telstar 28 302 Watkins Glen
I get the original question and it's spirit. It's the idea that the OP was unwilling to see he was risking others without their knowledge and consent that was alarming. Hell, I'd go with him! But I am only putting my own Butt on the line for the adventure. He asked for opinions, and he got good ones about rigging and the need for some common sense. He can choose which to ignore, but he can't make us leave out the advice he doesn't want to hear. His best tack would have been to mirror us, validate us, consider our input in all matters, then decide for himself. Instead, he tried to squelch the opinions he didn't want. Oh well. Too bad.

Here is an example of what it sounds like: "I hear your point about informing all the passengers of the dangers involved in navigating such a small boat in open waters, away from sight of land. You are right, it is dangerous, and I wonder if you have some ideas how I might pass on to them a feel for the voyage and the dangers?" "I'll certainly take any ideas you have and consider them. Thanks for the input! Now what do you think about beefing up the shrouds and chainplates? Or what about VHF radios? Do you have any favorites?"

He still got what he asked for, and he got a little extra. I feel confident he'll make the voyage and survive and have a great time, but informed consent of all parties involved of the risks should be required, and since one is a child, who cannot give informed consent due to lack of sophistication, experience, and judgment, the child stays with the Grandparents, or the wife gets a double vote in the matter of the child, since we know how the OP will vote.

Thanks,

Andrew
 
Oct 17, 2011
2,808
Ericson 29 Southport..
This has got to be the longest running "beat-down" I've seen in awhile, and I was a big part of it. And do not recant one single word. If the dude were going to do it himself, or with another gang of idiots, I would have been all for it. I venture I MAY be able to cross the Gulf on an inner-tube, and someone has probably done it before. There is no end to morons that continue to pursue crazy endeavors mainly for the attention, and it's truly a wonderful thing. Without them, the world would be overrun with Johnnie Knoxvilles, at the peril of the public at large. It is a natural elimination thing, and well, that's the way it works.
But here was my biggest problem. Aside from the kid issue which is validating enough in itself, there is little telling how many newer sailors that probably look at this board for advice or inspiration, never creates a profile at all, (which is also just fine, it is), that may read this for the true experienced waterman that generally post here that would tell him that it was just fine, go for it. And commence to do it themselves with the delusional thinking that that's what these boats do. They don't. It will probably, but with the highly likely possibility that it will not.
I've got an Ericson that is well regarded. It will do about anything that I want it to do. But if I posted here that I wanted to take the family around the Horn, or through the Northwest Passage, chances are I'm going to receive some dissention. I would hope so. And I should.
The O.P. clearly identified his maturity level by crying, "Shut up, shut up, that's not what I want to hear". And after reading a couple of those, I too lost my patience with this guy.
So in the end, with that said, I do apologize if I offended anyone as well.
I THINK I do..
 
May 27, 2012
1,152
Oday 222 Beaver Lake, Arkansas
Re: Opinions: Upgrades needed to get 22 ready for Bahama cro

Chris, and others who think and feel similarly. I too wonder about the lurkers or new to the forum people who read threads like this one. 30 years ago my brother did really crazy stuff and put other lives in danger, but thank God he didnt sail.

Most of what we hear are the ones who made it back to shore after some brave adventure. The so and so who took the smallest boat known to man and sailed round the world. No one stops to read, or consider, that the hull and deck was probably an inch thick of solid fiberglass with 3/8 inch stays and huge chain plates. Some of the places where you do hear of death and destruction are the sailing races, but unless your really reading a lot of sailing stuff its really off the radar. How many are simply lost at sea and simply forgotten? How many wander off toward the Bahamas or wherever, and are never seen again? Is anyone ever going to find a small fiberglass boat in 3000 feet of water? Who would know? Who would record it? Where would one look to find that information? No where, because they simply are not recordable events. Only when some other ship or the CG get involved, and actually witness the sinking/loss, is there any record.

But there are the dark cold stories many want to avoid. The stories told by survivors who made it back to shore after experiencing Gods wrath. A man could make 1000 crossings and never know more than sun bleached skies and calm seas, and believe it would always be that way. And he could be counted among the lost and no one would be any the wiser. But thats not reality.

I dont need to go out to sea to know it can turn on you, ive read it. Ive read it 1000 times. That in and of itself doesnt make me afraid to go, but it does make me fearful enough of it not to be stupid. I dont think its stupid to go to sea in a lakeboat. If your an adult and know the risks, go for it. If you take other adults along who are equally aware of the danger, take them as well. But when you take innocent children along you put their lives in jeopardy, and thats on YOU. And even adults, if you BS someone into tagging along through images of blue skies, calm seas and balmy winds, its on you if it all goes to hell.

I have no intention of taking my wife and daughter offshore until they are fully aware of the risks and come freely. Anyone who would do less is a fool. Better to go to the depths yourself, than take someone with you.
 
Aug 31, 2011
243
Catalina C-22 9485 Lake Rathbun, IA
Great advice from many old salts who know their stuff. Every bit of it worth considering and heeding. Don't knock it.

Here's an upgrade worth considering... a Catalina 42 with full offshore safety gear, and an experienced offshore helmsman. The very questions posed indicate level of experience and my advice is wait a few years. Try coastal sailing, then buy a bigger boat, and gain experience with that. Or rig this boat for single handed sailing and don't risk others especially a child. With the right gear, ideal conditions and meticulous planning, it could be a great adventure but only with significant experience of all aboard. What would happen if the skipper was incapacitated in some way. Could the others sail alone, operate safety equipment ?? The 22 is a great boat, tough and forgiving when sailed smartly, but with limitations.
 
Aug 3, 2012
2,542
Performance Cruising Telstar 28 302 Watkins Glen
The incapacitation of the skipper is a good point. I ran across a boat, or should I say he almost ran across me this weekend, while the skipper was distracted trying to raise sails. He had turned the helm over to a kid who couldn't do it, or didn't know what was expected, and as a result, he wandered 270 degrees under motor while the skipper was distracted with lines. I ran from him through 3 tacks, and when he finally closed within 75 feet, I basically asked him to back off as he was chasing me all over the lake while trying to raise his sails. The skipper returned to the helm and corrected his course, and I sailed AWAY from him.

And that was just with the skipper distracted by fouled gear / lines on a calm day in which I later motored into port due to dying wind! The kids and wife on the boat had NO idea what to do without him. They definitely needed to make peace with that boat after sailing that day.

Imagine the consequences in a storm.

Thanks,

Andrew
 
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