Opinions: Upgrades needed to get 22 ready for Bahama crossi

catndahats · Mar 25, 2013

Re: Opinions: Upgrades needed to get 22 ready for Bahama cro

Not trying to take away from the OP's questions, but to add to anyone's ideas for cruising in a small boat.

For anyone considering an extended stay on their small boat, this guy's blog is a good one. I followed his adventures for over a year, and found his resourcefulness and resilience to be inspiring.

Not a Catalina 22, but a small boat with a young inexperienced captain learning as he went....pretty cool story:
http://sailingmatilda.blogspot.com/

campuscab · Mar 25, 2013

Re: Opinions: Upgrades needed to get 22 ready for Bahama cro

Well done I am trying to keep my weight down for the and you have some good ideas. My family wont rough it. I am going solo or with a friend. I need to get mine out and get a good feel for what we can do. I have no plan after Bimini. I will figure out after that no rush

Ken Secor · Mar 26, 2013

Re: Opinions: Upgrades needed to get 22 ready for Bahama cro

Those that suggest Blue water is somehow more dangerous than say a small lake, might want to rethink that notion.

There's a lake near Clinton, NJ called Round Valley. The surface area of the lake is only 3.6 square miles, yet well over 20 people have drowned in it. Mostly from small fishing and sailing boats.

I lost two friends to that lake.

I'd rather sail blue water with my C-22 than put in at the 3.6 square mile Round Valley reservoir.

http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/2012/06/njs_bermuda_triangle_mystery_s.html

It ain't the size of the boat, the size of the water - or the size of the waves folks.

Folks can and do drown in bathtubs.

Jackdaw · Mar 26, 2013

Ken Secor said:
Those that suggest Blue water is somehow more dangerous than say a small lake, might want to rethink that notion.

There's a lake near Clinton, NJ called Round Valley. The surface area of the lake is only 3.6 square miles, yet well over 20 people have drowned in it. Mostly from small fishing and sailing boats.

I lot two friends to that lake.

I'd rather sail blue water with my C-22 than put in at the 3.6 square mile Round Valley reservoir.

http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/2012/06/njs_bermuda_triangle_mystery_s.html

It ain't the size of the boat, the size of the water - or the size of the waves folks.

Folks can and do drown in bathtubs.

With all due respect to your friends, that comment about blue water vs. small lakes is simply wrong.

You are right, people off of small boats drown in size bodies of water. 90% without life jackets. Most of them with their zippers down. That's not about the water. Its about the people.

Ken Secor · Mar 26, 2013

I couldn't agree less.

People don't drown on land. Accidents do happen and people die as a result of them. Most are NOT preventable.

The number one cause of boat related drownings? Accidents.

Booze and drugs account for roughly 12 times as many drownings - as boats sinking.

Motor boats dominate the list. That means we have nothing to worry about

Chef2sail · Mar 26, 2013

dohcdelsol93 said:
why must people with nothing positive to add to this post in here?

May i request a mod to delete this nonsense?

We are not talking open ocean sailing here...we are talking about short passages across open water, many have been done on kayaks, jet skis and hobie cats.

This is an "upgrades to consider" thread not a "i'd buy a bigger boat" thread.

Yes, a Contessa 26 would be GREAT however storing or trailer launching a Contessa would be less than ideal. Especially towing from South Carolina to southern Florida.

But what you fail to realize what they are saying is positive, It just doesnt seem to agree with your fantasy

It is positive to say to others who wish to follow you lead that there are many other boats same size which are made for this.

It is positive to say that a jump to the Bahama is one thing, but a sail around Cuba and further is not a great idea

It is positive to say that even though you leave in good weather with the proper window that you could have a failure and be out longer than you thought and your weather window closes and you are caught in the open ocean with a boat designed for a lake or fair weather.

It is positive to point out your bravado about being out in 60+ winds during Sandy doesnt begin to mimick 35 mph winds in the open ocean with 12-15 ft seas

It is positive to observe that a boat, not initially designed for blue water, which sat for many years as you said and was stripped out would be capabale for a long term voyage ( even if you thing you are stopping every day).

It is positive to point out that any upgrades as well as electrical power, water maker, anchors, equipment, increased tankage,fuel, solar cell head and holding tank as well as livimng materials will add substantially o the weight of the boat which it was not designed to carry and make make it wallow in the seas. It has 2400lbs disp[lacement and 800 lb ballast. Is it realistic to beleile you will add at least 500 lbs to the ballast...or about 40% that you wont change the sailing characteristics.

Mmost of us who have been negative have said our piece and will move on, but if you continue to whine for a moderator to come and delete others opinions and posts, they will continue. Be mature and take the good with the bad.

Darwin rules.

Chef2sail · Mar 26, 2013

dohcdelsol93 said:
The lake I have spent most of my life in over 200 people have drown since the dam was built back in the 60's IIRC

however it's not the most dangerous lake in the upstate especially for sailors, Lake Jocassee can go from a beautiful sunny day to 50mph plus straight line winds in the matter of minutes. You cant see the storm clouds from over the mountains that surround the lake and by the time the wind hits the waves are 8ft plus breakers and it's too late. Parts of the lake are 300 or more ft deep. If you hear thunder in the distance find a sheltered cover ASAP.

It's a small lake but claims many boats.

Any body of water can be dangerous. A bath tub and a glass of whine can be dangerous. A lit cigarette, heavy eye lids and a couch can even kill you

I have actually kyaked and canoed on Lake Jacassee and whitewater rafted through the "Horsepasture" in the 80s. It is a beautiful region of South Carolina. Hard to understand why your exagerate its conditions as particularly trecherous, because its not. I think its a 7500 acre resiviour.I doubt seriously 8 ft breakers form there

Also, When you google Lake Jocassee deaths you find out the deaths have been caused by diving accidents, dynamite, boats running into each other, drownings, people going over waterfalls, kyak incidents

SC was in the lowest third of states in 2011, 2010 in terms of weather related deaths also
http://www.nws.noaa.gov/om/hazstats.shtml

Your 22 ft Catalina would be a relatively safe boat if sailed there I would think. Safe for a 70 mile jaunt to the Bahamas...maybe. Safe for a jaunt past Cuba with three on board even if modified...I doubt it. Not to say someone would try it. There are better made and safer 24 ft trailerable boats to chose from.

Please stop trying to control the content of posts. Thank you:dance:

campuscab · Mar 27, 2013

Re: Opinions: Upgrades needed to get 22 ready for Bahama cro

I am keeping it simple. I heading to Bimini or West End. From there i will figure out where to go and what to do. Weather will be the biggest factor. I am in no rush to find out what my boat can handle. I figure keep the trips short, all daylight sailing, and nothing too far from help. My insurance wants two people on board and a buddy boat or a group so we should set one up I am game. What we need is help on planning the trip to keep it as easy and safe as possible. If I a do not get the right weather I, will just stay in Florida and try next year. I think that the crime in Miami is more of a risk than the crossing if planned right. So let's get a few boats to go and make sure a couple are bigger and more experienced. People can do anything if they work together as a group. So anyone want to come I am going and would love the company. I have no clue what to do once I cross or what places or easy to sail. So everyone get off the computer and let's go sailing.

Chef2sail · Mar 27, 2013

campuscab said:
I am keeping it simple. I heading to Bimini or West End. From there i will figure out where to go and what to do. Weather will be the biggest factor. I am in no rush to find out what my boat can handle. I figure keep the trips short, all daylight sailing, and nothing too far from help. My insurance wants two people on board and a buddy boat or a group so we should set one up I am game. What we need is help on planning the trip to keep it as easy and safe as possible. If I a do not get the right weather I, will just stay in Florida and try next year. I think that the crime in Miami is more of a risk than the crossing if planned right. So let's get a few boats to go and make sure a couple are bigger and more experienced. People can do anything if they work together as a group. So anyone want to come I am going and would love the company. I have no clue what to do once I cross or what places or easy to sail. So everyone get off the computer and let's go sailing.

That's a great idea

Jackdaw · Mar 27, 2013

campuscab said:
I am keeping it simple. I heading to Bimini or West End. From there i will figure out where to go and what to do. Weather will be the biggest factor. I am in no rush to find out what my boat can handle. I figure keep the trips short, all daylight sailing, and nothing too far from help. My insurance wants two people on board and a buddy boat or a group so we should set one up I am game. What we need is help on planning the trip to keep it as easy and safe as possible. If I a do not get the right weather I, will just stay in Florida and try next year. I think that the crime in Miami is more of a risk than the crossing if planned right. So let's get a few boats to go and make sure a couple are bigger and more experienced. People can do anything if they work together as a group. So anyone want to come I am going and would love the company. I have no clue what to do once I cross or what places or easy to sail. So everyone get off the computer and let's go sailing.

That IS a good plan. One thing to think about; difference in average boat speeds. It only takes 1/2 of a knot to really separate boats over the course of a day. If your plan to stay together for safety, or anchor in the same place at night, speed difference can kill these types of plans.

RichH · Mar 27, 2013

Re: Opinions: Upgrades needed to get 22 ready for Bahama cro

Depending on water levels and prevailing winds in the Yucatan Channel, the Gulf stream 'can' approach 3+ knots at times.
For such a short water line length boat to safely negotiate proper drift and set during such 'high flow' GS conditions, its probably going to have to ADD 20-25° or more to its MAGNETIC course angle (when going TO the Bahamas, and DEDUCTING when returning) while at a probable boat speed of 4-4.5 knots (in benign conditions) for an average SOG of about 2-2.5kts .... if at 3 kts SOG that calculates out to ~75mi./3 kts = 25 HOURS of travel time. The message here is to leave Florida and partly 'ride', at an angle across the stream, by aimng East but actually traveling NE to reduce the possibility of 'slogging INTO' the stream with a small waterline length boat. Crossing the GS with its peak velocity halfway between, you certainly dont want to follow a GPS rhumbline!!!!! .... you make your 'south-easting' in calm water flow near FL by sailing an "S" curve based on MAGNETIC bearing .... because if you 'miss' you'll have to severely 'fight current' to get into either West End or Bimini. Eg. Leave from Ft. Lauderdale to make for West End or leave from Biscayne to make Bimini .... if you 'miss' West End, next stop off is ...... Ireland.

Chef2sail · Mar 28, 2013

dohcdelsol93 said:
have you ever been on lake jocasse in a thunder storm in straight line winds?
or even around the lake when the wind picks up at hurricane speeds? We are talking real white caps here.

No havent, but I have been on Lake Champlain and the Chesapeake in straight line winds like that where there were thunderstorms or frontal passages. If you got caught in that shame on you for not having the ability to get to shelter in enough time. With I pads/ phones even the smallest of T storms can be identified and picked up within minutes. One would think with your vast experience you wouldnt allow yourself to get caught in that kind of weather unprepared or unaware.

How about you? What is your offshore experience? Have you ever been off the coast 20 miles in 3.5 knott cureent with wind opposing at say 30 knots in a 22 foor boat?

Anyway i said it was the most dangerous for sailors in the upstate because these boats (especially like mine with no motor) can be hard to get to sheltered water quickly. The storms appear of the mountains unannounced other than thunder in the distance, however it's hard to tell which direction that thunder is coming from most of the time.

You may have spent some time kayaking there but I live within a 30 min drive from the horse pasture you're talking about. And i was visiting the horse pasture back when you had to have a winch and 35" tires just to get back to the old boat ramps in even the best of conditions, not the minivan friendly gravel lined horse pasture that you see today.

I have been to the Horse Pasture many time in the last 35 years. I used to do a lot of white water rafting down the Natahela and Chattooga, ....probably before you were even born or knew how to walk. The area you live in is very beautiful and used to be much more challanging before it was developed.

You'll have ocean height waves that are much closer and much steeper. They don't "roll" with you..they slam into you. Remember...when you hear the thunder...the storm is already on top of you.

Thats rideiculous at best. You dont get 15 ft waves on a 7500 acre lake for sustained periods of time. And the ocean as well as many areas like Delaware bay, Hatteras Shoals, Bahama Bank with shoals and long fetches can get 8-10 foot waves at 3 seconds which will take a 22 foot boat and move it backwards or stop it all thogether. Having done the Gulf Stream more than a few times, sometime the conditions are like a dishwasher with waves colliding from many differeing directions from weather 600 miles away where it is rough, even though where you are it is calm and sunny., Another difference is your T storm last 20 minutes not 48 hours.

And the lake with 200+ drownings here in the upstate that i was referring is lake Hartwell. My point is I have a great respect for the water, I grew up on lake Hartwell and pretty much yearly you are reminded about how dangerous it can be when you see lake deaths in your local paper.

Since you never read any post thoroughly before posting I'm sure you figured i was referring to one lake when i was referring to two

You can drown anywhere there is water if you are not careful. A lake, and ocean, a pool or a bathtub. To equate weather on a Lake in SC with ocean weather, seas, and the GS current is amateurish and shows you lack of understand of the differences. Be that as it may I fully agree that a 22 ft properly designed boat can be safe going to the Bahamas, and beyond as you stated your intentions were. Just not yours. I have identified in previous posts blue water capable 22 foots which need no modification. No matter what you do to yours it will not be up to snuff. You cant turn a house cat into a tiger.

In planning to make a 70 miles crossing you must also plan contingencies and be able to survive a much longer passage showul things go wrong. You cant always depend on weather stay good in passages. You even admoit and say that in your own posts where you are in your landlocked lake, dont you think there are more variables on the open ocean? I wouldnt travel in a group of boats a slow as you exposing myself to dangers any longer than I had to so the group crossing while a nice thought is not practicle.

Your posts tend to get personal and confrontational, especially when someone posts something opposite what you beleive....then you ask for them to be censored or removed or you ask for the posters to go away.:dance: Instead of that just read them, maybe you will learn something. No one is against you.

Old Skool Neil · Mar 28, 2013

Chef et al,
What we know because he's told us:

He's an experienced sailor.
He's sailed his Venture 21 on his lake.
He considers his Venture 21 sufficiently seaworthy to make the planned voyage if he were going solo. (This verifies his knowledge of what makes a sound, seaworthy vessel)
He intends to extensively modify a Catalina 22 for three people to make the planned voyage. (I'm not sure if the Catalina 22 was his boat of choice for the voyage or if it's in the mix because he got it for next to nothing)
His lake gets whitecaps.
His lake gets 6 foot swells.
He's been out on his lake when the weather came up and has experienced the danger of a rocky lee shore.
Please don't make comments or suggestions that he doesn't like. If you do, he'll ask the moderator to delete them or tell you to post them elsewhere. I do not believe the moderator has asceded to any of his demands.

I didn't make this stuff up. That's what he's told us. Done.