im thinking of testing trans and engine oil on a yearly basis. Is the a recommended company or suite of tests recommended ??
Thanks
Les
Thanks
Les
Oil Testing
- Thread starter LeslieTroyer
- Start date
Why? Are you trying to diagnose a current problem? Just curious about the general health of the equipment? Something to keep occupied monitoring? I'm serious, Periodic monitoring of oil and transmission fluids can only lead to engine and transmission tear down and rebuild likely around the same time that if no monitoring was conducted. Normally we do not tear down engines and transmission until they start making weird noises or break down. It is a good diagnostic tool but do not see the benefits of using it until there is a problem.
I am not a big fan of oil analysis; we found it not useful or cost effective except in large machines (1000-5000 horsepower) with large (100 gallons) circulating oil systems. Much of the problem in small equipment is getting a representative sample.. that is controlling temperature, run time since start up, load, etc.. In smaller equipment, ultrasound and/or spectrum analysis was very much better than oil analysis.. Mostly, in small gear, it was better to change the oil than to mess with analysis. Not to say ya shouldn't look at it when you check the oil.. look for water, shiny small stuff .. check if a see stuff if the stuff is magnetic or not.. Just my experience, some folks will have a different experience, I am sure.
Mostly to keep me from being stuck somewhere and needing a tow. So far the engine is running fine. The trans is also working but more of a worry given its age (35years). $60 per year (trans + engine) is not much for piece of mind.
I did my gear oil, engine and genset on Sea Trials.
Results: All normal.
My Diesel tech said, the previous owner could have change them, just before the trails. Oh well.
But I agree with Kloude1 the range listed for metals was so broad it would take a big failure to have been outside of that range.
However, when I change my oils, I away check them for visual and magnetic stuff. Water is obvious.
My thought...
What would you do, if you find Fe or Al out of normal range?
Jim...
PS: Any testing is always a good thing, if it gives you peace of mind.
Results: All normal.
My Diesel tech said, the previous owner could have change them, just before the trails. Oh well.
But I agree with Kloude1 the range listed for metals was so broad it would take a big failure to have been outside of that range.
However, when I change my oils, I away check them for visual and magnetic stuff. Water is obvious.
My thought...
What would you do, if you find Fe or Al out of normal range?
Jim...
PS: Any testing is always a good thing, if it gives you peace of mind.
I was wondering How they tested oils. There is a full testing machine for about $900.
Or you can do this by mail.
https://www.greenpartstore.com/John-Deere-Oilscan-Oil-Analysis-Kit_p_292.html
and good evaluation of the needs from a Boat Surveyor here..
http://www.pcmarinesurveys.com/Oil Analysis on diesel boats.htm
Hope all oils are clean...
Jim...
Or you can do this by mail.
https://www.greenpartstore.com/John-Deere-Oilscan-Oil-Analysis-Kit_p_292.html
and good evaluation of the needs from a Boat Surveyor here..
http://www.pcmarinesurveys.com/Oil Analysis on diesel boats.htm
Hope all oils are clean...
Jim...
The problem with survey oil testing is you really don’t know how many hours the oil has on it. Knowing the hours AND having a baseline of several years would help know if something is starting to go wrong so you can plan. Than plan my be do nothing, but I wouldn’t do a round Vancouver Island with some value trending to yellow or red without correcting it first.
Les
Les
I fancy oil analasys because these reports will detect water, anti freeze, fuel which tips one off of an ensuing problem that you might overlook otherwise. As to deciding to replace parts due to wear I think that one cannot use oil analysis alone bit I look for abrupt/dramatic changes not absolute values. Also much better data if samples start from brand new or rebuilt.
Dont see any value here in transmissions. Just change the oil if in doubt
Dont see any value here in transmissions. Just change the oil if in doubt
Last edited:
Thanks Rod. I’ve ordered a kit from them for trans and M25. I also got one from wix to compair the two. Wix was $20 from Amazon compared to $30 at Blackstone. Good thing about Blackstone is you don’t pay till they get the sample.
Reading about problems with bottom sampling thinking of taking engine oil from the used oil filter core.
Les
Oil Chemist Here.
FYI the used oil is tested by X-ray fluorescence for wear metals, also test for base neutral acids and a few other things.
I’ve analyzed thousands of oil samples and my best suggestion to you is to save your money and just change your oil on a regular service interval. As was mentioned earlier, tracking down the source of specific tracer metals is very difficult unless the info is supplied by the engine manufacturer. Unless you are a big trucking fleet or using hundreds of gallons of hydraulic oil it’s just not cost efficient.
Hope that helps
FYI the used oil is tested by X-ray fluorescence for wear metals, also test for base neutral acids and a few other things.
I’ve analyzed thousands of oil samples and my best suggestion to you is to save your money and just change your oil on a regular service interval. As was mentioned earlier, tracking down the source of specific tracer metals is very difficult unless the info is supplied by the engine manufacturer. Unless you are a big trucking fleet or using hundreds of gallons of hydraulic oil it’s just not cost efficient.
Hope that helps
Not really interested in metals concentrations but you don’t need a manufacture to figure out source at concentrations higher than average. I still like it at 100 hour to see water, antifreeze, fuel anomalies metals aside.
For 28 US can’t find a way to beat it.
Whatsayyou sled?
Charles
For 28 US can’t find a way to beat it.
Whatsayyou sled?
Charles
Last edited:
No such thing as “ average wear metals”, so “higher than “ won’t tell you anything of value unless you are going to do an engine tear down.
Water and Antifreeze above “normal” levels will always indicate as a discoloring and clouding ( usually grey) of the oil. Typical of head gasket failures etc.
The only concern I have for my engines is high BNA ( Base Neutral Acids ) during storage. That goes for all of them, from my cars to motorcycles to lawn tractors and snowblowers. Changing the oil cures that every time.
Never use oil additives, they’re all bs.
And expensive oils are not better than inexpensive. As long as it meets the service grade spec of the manufacturer it’s fine.
Fuel issues need to be looked at in the fuel tank.
I’d rather spend the $28 on a fine cigar and some bourbon, but it’s your money and in the grand scheme of things 28 bucks is a piss hole in the snow when it comes to sailing, so feel free if it gives you peace of mind!
Water and Antifreeze above “normal” levels will always indicate as a discoloring and clouding ( usually grey) of the oil. Typical of head gasket failures etc.
The only concern I have for my engines is high BNA ( Base Neutral Acids ) during storage. That goes for all of them, from my cars to motorcycles to lawn tractors and snowblowers. Changing the oil cures that every time.
Never use oil additives, they’re all bs.
And expensive oils are not better than inexpensive. As long as it meets the service grade spec of the manufacturer it’s fine.
Fuel issues need to be looked at in the fuel tank.
I’d rather spend the $28 on a fine cigar and some bourbon, but it’s your money and in the grand scheme of things 28 bucks is a piss hole in the snow when it comes to sailing, so feel free if it gives you peace of mind!
Never very interested in someone's version of average so much as abrupt changes from past history of concentrations in a single motor. As to additives - do you think additives with ZDDP are bs for flat tappet cam break-in especially with higher spring pressures. Is there another way to detect onset of fuel dilution of the oil - for example leaking injector, lift pump diaphragm, high pressure pump?
Last edited:
ZInc dithiophosphate is most likely already in the oil you are running. It’s been around since before lead was banned in fuels. It’s primarily a lubricant preferred because it’s cheap. Adding it as an additive to your oil isn’t going to do squat for cam break-in.
During cam assembly there are lubes with zddp ( along with other organometallics) that are used at break in . After that cam lobe has contacted your tappet a few thousand times you are all done worrying about it. Engine break in is pretty much done by the time the motor leaves the factory floor nowadays. Better off changing your oil early to remove the “abrasive seeds” as all of your engine components settle in - although not really necessary now due to high quality oil filters.
All of the fuel issues you are talking about would be made obvious by the actual running of the motor - rough idle, poor performance etc.
By the time these problems showed up in your oil you’d already be doing that troubleshooting.
One diesel fuel issue to watch out for is old dyed diesel. The dye will break down and clog filters and injectors. Also, try to avoid “winter mix” diesel. It has more kerosene in it, so a lower lubricity. Still no big deal though.
Back to the wear metals - if I told you your copper concentration had gone from 10 to 25 ppm what would you do? It’s not like you’re gonna rip the diesel out of your Amel and mic out the bearings. Is it enough to matter? Did you run the engine under the same conditions for the same time using the same fuel? Unless you’re monitoring a locomotive it’s irrelevant.
I think you’d just lose sleep over nothing. Better off with that cigar!
During cam assembly there are lubes with zddp ( along with other organometallics) that are used at break in . After that cam lobe has contacted your tappet a few thousand times you are all done worrying about it. Engine break in is pretty much done by the time the motor leaves the factory floor nowadays. Better off changing your oil early to remove the “abrasive seeds” as all of your engine components settle in - although not really necessary now due to high quality oil filters.
All of the fuel issues you are talking about would be made obvious by the actual running of the motor - rough idle, poor performance etc.
By the time these problems showed up in your oil you’d already be doing that troubleshooting.
One diesel fuel issue to watch out for is old dyed diesel. The dye will break down and clog filters and injectors. Also, try to avoid “winter mix” diesel. It has more kerosene in it, so a lower lubricity. Still no big deal though.
Back to the wear metals - if I told you your copper concentration had gone from 10 to 25 ppm what would you do? It’s not like you’re gonna rip the diesel out of your Amel and mic out the bearings. Is it enough to matter? Did you run the engine under the same conditions for the same time using the same fuel? Unless you’re monitoring a locomotive it’s irrelevant.
I think you’d just lose sleep over nothing. Better off with that cigar!
"
You don't need a weather man
To know which way the wind blows
Subterranean Homesick Blues
-Bob Dylan
I got a good idea...
1) Sample your oils for peace of mind. When you get positive results...
2) Smoke a good cigar in celebration.
3) Sip some good Bourbon for whatever damn reason
4) Change your oils seasonally.
Jim...
1) Sample your oils for peace of mind. When you get positive results...
2) Smoke a good cigar in celebration.
3) Sip some good Bourbon for whatever damn reason
4) Change your oils seasonally.
Jim...
It is an idea that has little value done once. A sequence of tests taken over a period of several years may give data relevant to how you use or service the engine. If you are going on an extended cruise and the engine will be an essential tool, the data may influence how you prepare the engine or a replacement for the cruise.