Not being able to see where you are going

justsomeguy · Apr 12, 2016

walt said:
but think blocking your forward view is a fairly unsafe practice, even irresponsible since you can put some other persons safety in jeopardy.

What do you think..

The same as this. I think...

whatfiero · Apr 12, 2016

Just have sail maker cut a window of isenglass into sail but I just keep a lookout on bow

rgranger · Apr 12, 2016

You could add stern rail seats (those are nice by the way) and then sit to leeward, that would let you see behind your sail except when you are on a run.

Scott T-Bird · Apr 12, 2016

I sail single-handed a lot with a deck-sweeping 150 genoa that is definitely a view blocker. I grew comfortable doing this on very crowded inland lake. I've never had a problem being aware of what is in front of me regardless of the view. I think it just takes awareness of everything that enters and exits the blind spot, expectation of course, stand-on status, etc. I peek around the sail if anything feels uncomfortable. To me it doesn't seem like a big deal. I avoid crowds, like a sailboat race in progress. The waterways always seem most crowded in the light air conditions anyway, when a sailboat is barely moving. When the wind is strong and the sailboat is charging along, it's funny how the waterways always empty out.
I feel like my mind has a built-in radar, recording everything that is in potential conflict, and setting an alarm when it doesn't feel right. When the alarm sounds, I peek around the sail.

BudGates · Apr 12, 2016

My opinion is that, unless you're racing and have a dedicated look-out at the bow, the risk out-weighs the benefit. I have basically retired my genoa in favor of a high clew 110 and a drifter with the tack about 2' off the deck.

markwbird · Apr 12, 2016

If I understand you correctly you are referring to the gap between the foot of the headsail and the deck. The pressure differential between the windward and leeward side of the sail is what drives the boat forward when close hauled. That pressure differential is reduced when air can "leak" under the gap thus reducing the power in the sail. This is why you get a couple of PHRF points for having a roller furler as the sail stops short of the deck due to the drum. A "deck sweeper" closes the gap and the boat is faster and points better but you cannot see as well.

Jackdaw · Apr 12, 2016

We are talking about sailboats. They move at the speed people WALK. You have time to react.

Yes deck sweeping sails can be hard to see around. And if you use them you have to take that into account. But this is nothing irresponsible about them.

JohnShannon · Apr 12, 2016

Hmm not to pick nits, but as far as blame goes in addition to him almost bumping into you, you almost bumped into him. Perhaps you were on starboard tack but even then you are supposed to avoid a collision. He wasn't keeping adequate watch and you were keeping a barely adequate watch. Glad nothing bad happened

rgranger · Apr 12, 2016

walt said:
Both solutions sound good.. but they would have had no influence on what did happen - someone else with their view blocked almost bumped into me.. and Im sure they had all sort of "techniques" for seeing where they were going but probably were not aware that they needed to use them - because they could not see.

You can't control what other people do...

Scott T-Bird · Apr 12, 2016

Another technique I use is to sail in a weaving course so that anything that may be in the blind spot can be momentarily observed and the position is located in my mind's radar. It doesn't bother me to weave a course, as wind shifts often create the same effect.

BarryL · Apr 12, 2016

Hey,

In my area (Long Island Sound, east of port Jefferson) there is lots of water and not that many boats. My sailboat is not moving that fast and it's not that hard to track the vessels near me and to make sure I am aware of them. If i see a vessel headed towards me, and I am the stand on vessel, I will try to observe someone at the helm of the vessel. If I can't see them, then I know they can't see me, and I will pay very close attention. Before it gets too close I will most likely change my course. I keep an air horn in the cockpit (never had to use it) in case it gets dangerously close.

Barry

philwsailz · Apr 12, 2016

walt said:
I an curious what the general feeling is towards putting some sort of foresail on a sailboat that blocks your forward view? I cant find the link anymore but there used to be some technical paper that noted a near doubling of lift with perfect end plating and this benefit fell off very rapidly with any gap. Even at 1% gap, the benefit had significant reduction. I may have the details wrong but the point being that you get a performance benefit by doing a good job "closing the gap" or sweeping the deck with the fore sail.

Where I observed the benefit of closing the gap was in lighter winds. Im not sure if its just that the physics of closing the gap work best in light winds or that is where that type of sail is used?

And the other issue.. the planet is becoming more crowded, recreational water ways are becoming more crowded. Throw into that a sailboat where you have 20 to 40 degrees of your forward vision blocked. I single hand a lot and have heard of techniques to see where you are going.. but when I hear these.. Im thinking you must be sailing some place different than I do. Last winter I had a sailboat nearly bump into me, when I looked up all I saw was a deck sweeping jib. Could not even see the people in the boat so they could also not see me.

I like the performance benefit.. but think blocking your forward view is a fairly unsafe practice, even irresponsible since you can put some other persons safety in jeopardy.

What do you think..

You may not like this....

When you wrote: "Last winter I had a sailboat nearly bump into me, when I looked up all I saw was a deck sweeping jib. Could not even see the people in the boat so they could also not see me." you inadvertently left yourself in same or similar "fault" as the other boat. Sweeping jib or not, on either boat, you had an obligation to be aware of vessels around you and to avoid collision. For another boat to almost bump into you suggests that there is shared fault.... Despite right-of-way, every vessel has an obligation to adjust course to prevent collision, even the stand-on vessel.

So now that I am done ribbing you....

There ARE ways to maintain a watch forward with a big jib. That other boat probably was not paying attention, or they were in that lull place where they forget to watch for their surroundings... They're on a sailboat, they ALWAYS have the right-of-way, right? heh heh heh... sure...

Situational awareness is key; there are ways to keep track of vessels ahead and changing traffic even if sight lines are not constant while blocked by a big hunk of cloth up front...

philwsailz · Apr 12, 2016

BTW, I installed a BIG air horn on my boat... Compressor and tank even... I can't WAIT to use it the next time someone seems to be on a closing course with me... HONKKKKK!

Rick D · Apr 12, 2016

On my prior jib, I had the sailmaker add a window. Worked well and didn't seem to affect the shape. I may do the same for this one sometime.

Jackdaw · Apr 12, 2016

markwbird said:
If I understand you correctly you are referring to the gap between the foot of the headsail and the deck. The pressure differential between the windward and leeward side of the sail is what drives the boat forward when close hauled. That pressure differential is reduced when air can "leak" under the gap thus reducing the power in the sail. This is why you get a couple of PHRF points for having a roller furler as the sail stops short of the deck due to the drum. A "deck sweeper" closes the gap and the boat is faster and points better but you cannot see as well.

Plate effect does exist and is a helpful thing, but that is NOT one of the primary reasons you get the roll-furler credit.

The three big reasons:

1) The rolling luff-foil is MUCH more rigid than a wire, and does not flex to leeward to let the sail take a fully optimized shape. This is particularly true in light airs. Thats the big reason.

2) Less sail area. A jib with a shorter luff is smaller.

3) UV cloth, some PHRF board break this out due to the increasing use of jib socks, but the extra cloth on the foot and leech effect sail shape.

BudGates · Apr 12, 2016

walt said:
Phil, I got nicked from behind.. they were slightly faster in the very light wind (partly because of the nice gap closing jib) and I was in their forward blind spot - becuase of the same nice gap closing jib. I know in an auto accident, I would not have been liable.. dont know about on a sailboat. And.. it was light wind so nothing at all happened except that it confirmed my own opinion that not being able to see where you are going is not a good idea.

In most cases the "overtaking vessel" is the "give-way" vessel and the vessel being "overtaken" is the "stand-on" vessel. In this case as you described it you would not be liable.

I realize that there are many ways to be aware of what is in the BIG BLANK SPACE ahead of you but I like to sail to reduce stress. Not being able to see everything in my path does quite the opposite.

centerline · Apr 12, 2016

Jackdaw said:
We are talking about sailboats. They move at the speed people WALK. You have time to react.

Yes deck sweeping sails can be hard to see around. And if you use them you have to take that into account. But this is nothing irresponsible about them.

I agree...
this is just another classic case of, "its not a problem of the gear/boat/object being unsafe, but the problem is with the ignorance/carelessness of the person attempting to use it"..... and when looked at from this proper perspective, one can easily see what could be done to avoid any close calls. a proper lookout at all times when underway is the most important one that tops the list of many things that come to mind....