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NOAA wants to stop making NOAA charts!

Discussion in 'Cruising Sailors' started by nat55, May 30, 2017. Add this thread to a FAQ

  1. Fred Villiard

    Fred Villiard

    Joined Dec 28, 2009
    397 posts, 22 likes
    Macgregor M25
    US trailer
    If I'm just putsing around known waters I just use the chart plotter. But if I'm going on a cruise I'll plot my course on the paper chart, transfer the way points to the plotter. During the cruise every once in a while I'll mark my position and time on the chart, habit from the days of loran.

    At night mostly just use the compass and clock.

    Every once in a while I'll take a sight with the sextant, and compare my reading with the GPS just to keep in practice.
     


    jon hansen likes this.
  2. colemj

    colemj

    Joined Jul 13, 2004
    51 posts, 22 likes
    -Manta Catamaran -Manta 40
    US Mystic, CT
    not the same! the navigator and helmsman on my boat are not the same usually. i'm a sailor, not a cruiser. i choose to optimize my vessel for sailing, even when i'm cruising. the light from the nav station is kept dark from the helm's eyes. i like to sail into a harbor or bay. so, i like at least 2 per watch. trimming, lookout, nav, cook, ..... not the helmsman.[/QUOTE]

    OK, then it is still the same - the navigator does the navigating work with the electronics, while the helmsman stays dark. The inescapable fact is that light is necessary for both paper or electronic. The difference is that electronic presents far more options for night-friendly viewing than paper. How one divides the responsibilities is no different either way.

    Mark
     


  3. colemj

    colemj

    Joined Jul 13, 2004
    51 posts, 22 likes
    -Manta Catamaran -Manta 40
    US Mystic, CT
    Perhaps Jon had a better sense of humor and appreciation for a subtle point than most? The statistics are inescapable for the very reason you list in your first sentence. That is also the humorous part. The subtle part is noticing that people have regularly come to grief with paper charts (and still do), and that the possession of such does not mean that they maintain a constant lookout, have superb situational awareness, know everything about navigating, or even have better luck.

    That is the part of logic that is missing when people assign those qualities to others using electronic charts.

    Mark
     


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  4. colemj

    colemj

    Joined Jul 13, 2004
    51 posts, 22 likes
    -Manta Catamaran -Manta 40
    US Mystic, CT
    We do the same, only we plan routes, and plot positions, on computers (usually a computer and 2 iPads). Much less possibility for error that way (in fact, to plot a position, all that is needed to be done is to waken the iPad and computer for a couple of seconds and the application automatically drops a point and time at the ship's location). Of course, our position is also written in our log at least on every shift change (generally every couple of hours).

    We have a paper log, BTW - anything else is just dangerous and irresponsible! :)

    Mark
     


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  5. colemj

    colemj

    Joined Jul 13, 2004
    51 posts, 22 likes
    -Manta Catamaran -Manta 40
    US Mystic, CT
    I agree. However, paper is not the only valid means of backup.

    Mark
     


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  6. Meriachee

    Meriachee

    Joined Aug 1, 2011
    3,348 posts, 1,170 likes
    Catalina 270
    CA Wabamun - on the orange ball
    I never said it was. Your boat, your choice.
    There is a fairly large contingent of people who have been in the hi tech industry for a long time, who love their toys and in somewhat of a dichotomy, seriously enjoy the pleasure that things like a good book in hand, or a chart on the table bring. Framing a discussion around trying to change that viewpoint for these people, myself included, is very likely a waste of time.
     


    jssailem likes this.
  7. Jim CT35

    Jim CT35

    Joined Feb 11, 2017
    4 posts, 0 likes
    Let's not forget how old actual the Hydrographic Surveys shown on the charts, paper or electronic are. In my area some date back before WW II.
     


  8. colemj

    colemj

    Joined Jul 13, 2004
    51 posts, 22 likes
    -Manta Catamaran -Manta 40
    US Mystic, CT
    Hmm, go back and read your post I responded too. You did say it was, you did not mention the pleasure of a paper chart on the table as being your reason for having them, and it was you and a couple of others who have framed the discussion on absolute terms to change viewpoints.

    I've mentioned specifically that I see no issues with people using paper charts. I've never even argued that point. The opposite has been true for you and some others regarding people using electronic.

    I have mostly responded to inaccurate information, poor logic, and to present my experiences with the current state of cruising choices I see.

    Mark
     


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  9. colemj

    colemj

    Joined Jul 13, 2004
    51 posts, 22 likes
    -Manta Catamaran -Manta 40
    US Mystic, CT
    This may be fine for the navy, but if you think carefully about the consequences of the gps system failing or being taken down, you will discover you have far more important worries and much larger problems than navigation. This isn't the 1980's anymore.

    It is a red herring argument because civilization as we know it will end with any prolonged outage. Food won't be delivered, supplies will be unavailable, airlines, trains, and trucking will be dead in the water, communications will be gone (not even land lines), and likely power will be out.

    For a short blip in service, most of us will likely find our way just fine. :)

    Mark
     


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  10. colemj

    colemj

    Joined Jul 13, 2004
    51 posts, 22 likes
    -Manta Catamaran -Manta 40
    US Mystic, CT
    Yes, the data themselves make the chart - not the format in which they are presented.

    I'm a proponent of crowd sourcing for this. Even by ourselves, I often take the dingy around with my iPad and a HH depth sounder and "make" accurate electronic charts of poorly charted areas we are interested in exploring or entering with the main boat.

    We have a friend who has a fixed sounder in his dingy and a navionics app that wirelessly takes data from the sounder. He just drives his dinghy around like mowing a lawn and the app creates an amazing detailed electronic chart for him. He can upload the data to navionics, but I don't know their procedure for vetting it for further distribution.

    For sure, the future is not paper in this regard.

    Mark
     


  11. Meriachee

    Meriachee

    Joined Aug 1, 2011
    3,348 posts, 1,170 likes
    Catalina 270
    CA Wabamun - on the orange ball
    What you use, or don't use on your boat is entirely up to you. Your boat, your choice.
    Button time.
     


    jon hansen likes this.
  12. jon hansen

    jon hansen

    Joined May 25, 2012
    2,165 posts, 1,946 likes
    john alden caravelle 42
    us sturgeon bay, wis
    at night, under sail, 'NEITHER' i think is the correct answer.
     


  13. Gunni

    Gunni

    Joined Mar 16, 2010
    5,943 posts, 1,489 likes
    Beneteau 411 Oceanis
    US Annapolis
    A chart laying on your table can't be hacked, or a sextant...or the sun, and stars.
     


    jssailem likes this.
  14. Captain Larry-DH

    Captain Larry-DH

    Joined Jun 14, 2010
    797 posts, 438 likes
    Quorning Dragonfly 1200
    US home
    :) don't get rid of those bearing binos Mark, the I-S ones might have flat batteries one day. I agree with you on the paper charts, but still have chart books that haven't been opened since 2000 stowed under my salon seats. The reason I don't recycle the paper is that GPS might fall victim to an act or war or terror. It's easy to jam or knock out by hostiles, or manipulate by the government.
    I remember they played around with GPS position accuracy in the NYC area after 9/11/2001. We were sitting at anchor and I noticed our CP started reading as if we were moving at high speed to the east. It "moved" us about 5 miles east of actual, then "moved" us back. This looked like a shift might have been "dialed in" to the system as a test or as part of a strategy.

    Edit: After writing the above, I read your later post about the end of civilization as we know it if GPS is knocked out long term. Unfortunately I think that risk has become much higher recently.
     


    Last edited: Jun 3, 2017
  15. colemj

    colemj

    Joined Jul 13, 2004
    51 posts, 22 likes
    -Manta Catamaran -Manta 40
    US Mystic, CT
    You can still see through them without batteries...

    Helps keep the condensation down. :)

    The risk of GPS being knocked out long term, or the risk of the end of civilization as we know it? Right now, they aren't necessarily related… :(

    Mark
     


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  16. Rick486

    Rick486

    Joined Oct 1, 2007
    1,319 posts, 370 likes
    Hunter 44DS
    US Pt. Judith
    The day that GPS is no longer available, all of us will have much bigger and more important concerns than how we will find our way into Roque Island......
     


    Alan Gomes likes this.
  17. TomY

    TomY Alden Forum Moderator

    Joined Jun 22, 2004
    1,783 posts, 1,804 likes
    Alden 38' Challenger yawl
    US Rockport Harbor
    On the original post, I read the article on Panbo.

    It doesn't sound like paper charts are going away, very quickly. For those who use paper charts regularly for navigation - or as back-up - it sounds like print chart data will be harder to keep up to date.

    Updating never mattered much to the average navigator anyway, and as back up, it's not that important.
     


    jon hansen likes this.
  18. MrBill_FLL

    MrBill_FLL

    Joined May 4, 2005
    4,060 posts, 36 likes
    Macgregor 26d
    US Ft Lauderdale, Fl
    I ran a 2 day race with a dead battery. those paper charts helped a lot! especially at night.
    Everyone should have a backup paper chart aboard, for when your battery is dead.
     


  19. genec

    genec

    Joined Dec 30, 2010
    188 posts, 57 likes
    Pacific Seacraft Orion27
    US HP: San Diego, M: Anacortes
    While NOAA doesn't actually supply paper charts anymore, the press release seems to indicate a higher level of disregard, in the statement "plans to cease support..."

    Does this mean that NOAA will not actually continue to update the electronic databases that are used by commercial sources for chartplotters and the printing of paper charts?

    I have to admit that I have not used an actual NOAA chart in years, but I still rely on the NOAA data in commercial charts from Maptech, for instance.

    And I do download the NOAA charts from https://www.nauticalcharts.noaa.gov/staff/chartspubs.html for use on my computer and smartphone (running openCPN).
     




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