No Automatic Bilge Pump... Really???

Jul 6, 2013
51
Hunter 336 Société Nautique de Genève
On our older boat, the bilge pump could be automatically actuated by a float switch, wired directly to the battery.

On our more recent boat, the bilge pump can also be automatically actuated by a pressure sensor and there's a switch on the electrical panel to set automatic mode.

A friend of ours just got a brand new Dufour and there's no automatic switch on the bilge pump at all! It can only be run manually. This was very surprising to me as an automatic bilge pump could save a boat from sinking if there's a small leak when nobody's around for some time..

Asking around, it seems this is more typical than not on certain newer production boats. I think an automatic, direct to battery switch should be installed even if the manufacturer didn't thing it was important. Any thoughts?
 
Oct 19, 2017
7,733
O'Day 19 Littleton, NH
I think an automatic, direct to battery switch should be installed even if the manufacturer didn't thing it was important. Any thoughts?
If you leave your boat in the water, at a slip or on a mooring, absolutely. I'm surprised the marinas don't all insist upon it or the insurance company.

-Will (Dragonfly)
 
May 17, 2004
5,032
Beneteau Oceanis 37 Havre de Grace
Is it possible that there is a float or electronic switch that is always on, just without a switch on the panel?
 
Jan 11, 2014
11,324
Sabre 362 113 Fair Haven, NY
Some pumps have a switch the is integral to the pump. The typical flapper float switch is failure prone. Using the integral switch saves production costs, one less thing to wire and fail.

Here's one from Rule: https://amzn.to/2Yzy7RX
 
Oct 26, 2008
6,051
Catalina 320 Barnegat, NJ
Some pumps have a switch the is integral to the pump. The typical flapper float switch is failure prone. Using the integral switch saves production costs, one less thing to wire and fail.

Here's one from Rule: https://amzn.to/2Yzy7RX
That's funny … my ski boat had the integral float switch and during the 20 or so years I owned it, I had to change the pump out several times even though the boat was rarely kept in the water for a long period (the pump did get regular use because of all the water that came into the boat off swim suits & wet suits & rain).
My 20 year-old sail boat had the original Rule remote float switch and it still operated just fine. I thought I would be smart and changed it out for a new integral float switch model (just like the one above). It failed in less than 3 months. That was 15 years ago, and since I replaced the integral model with a new Rule remote switch, I've never had a failure. I've heard that those Rule remote switches are unreliable, but my experience has been to the contrary. I'll swear by it until it proves me wrong.
 
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Sep 25, 2008
7,077
Alden 50 Sarasota, Florida
. I've heard that those Rule remote switches are unreliable, but my experience has been to the contrary. I'll swear by it until it proves me wrong.
I guess it pays to live righteously Scott. I wouldn't know which is probably why my Rule switches always crapped out.
 
Jul 7, 2004
8,402
Hunter 30T Cheney, KS
My float switch was bad. I replaced it with an Aqualarm. It works as advertised so far.
From what I get from the ABYC regs, automatic pumps aren't required.
 

dLj

.
Mar 23, 2017
3,374
Belliure 41 Sailing back to the Chesapeake
I prefer a separate switch from the pump. Gives me the option to run the pump manually (of course wired to do so) or in automatic mode. I can also switch out the switch or pump independently if one or the other fails rather than having to replace the whole unit.

dj
 
Mar 6, 2008
1,078
Catalina 1999 C36 MKII #1787 Coyote Point Marina, CA.
You can also install two remote switches in parallel. Hopefully both are not going to fail at the same time.
 
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Oct 26, 2008
6,051
Catalina 320 Barnegat, NJ
On our more recent boat, the bilge pump can also be automatically actuated by a pressure sensor and there's a switch on the electrical panel to set automatic mode.
I know you are just asking for thoughts and won't necessarily be changing anything, but …. are you saying that you have to have your electric panel energized in order for the automatic mode to function? Do you leave your boat with the electrical panel energized?

As somebody else already described, I'd prefer the bilge pump to be functional on an automatic float switch powered directly from the battery because we shut off the power to the electric panel when we leave the boat. But I also have a panel switch for the bilge so that the pump will function manually. In fact, my float switch requires a little more water to turn on than is required to draw water manually (if I have water in the bilge, I always draw it down manually because it draws down at least another inch or so after the automatic switch would shut off). I think that people that have a problem with the Rule float switch have a backflow volume that causes the pump to re-cycle water that doesn't quite clear the high point in the hose and perhaps they have cycling when the boat is heeling under sail and there is water in the bilge. We don't seem to ever have that problem, so I think that the switch may not be abused and it makes a difference. I've found that if I left the water level alone after the automatic switch turns off, the water has to rise at least a couple of inches before it will switch back on. Since I always pump it down to where the pump won't draw water, the automatic switch virtually never is utilized. I know that it works, though, because I test it virtually every weekend when I drain the ice box water. I pull the drain plug and always confirm that the auto switch starts the pump.

Also, I never leave the boat with water in the bilge, even though I always collect a little during a hard rain and find it the next weekend. :banghead:(We seem to get about an inch of rain every week - even thru the summer).
 
Jul 6, 2013
51
Hunter 336 Société Nautique de Genève
Thanks for the replies. To clarify, on our recent model Beneteau, the auto bilge function is turned on by a switch on the electrical panel, which needs to be energized. On the Dufour, there's only a switch for manual operation, also on the electrical panel. I know production boats cut corners to save costs, but this is getting ridiculous.
 
May 17, 2004
5,032
Beneteau Oceanis 37 Havre de Grace
The bilge pump switch on our Beneteau is a 3 way - off, automatic, or manual. The factory wired the electronic water sensor switch directly from the battery, so the pump is always in automatic mode, even when the panel switch is off. My guess is that Dufour just realized that was silly, if the pump is going to be always active anyway, and did away with the switch.
 
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May 29, 2018
457
Canel 25 foot Shiogama, japan
Switch the bilge pump off.
Pour some water into the bilge.
If the pump starts up it has a float switch and is straight wired into the battery.
If the pump doesn't start........
Fit a float switch.
It's not rocket surgery

gary
 
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May 17, 2004
5,032
Beneteau Oceanis 37 Havre de Grace
Switch the bilge pump off.
Pour some water into the bilge.
If the pump starts up it has a float switch and is straight wired into the battery.
If the pump doesn't start........
Fit a float switch.
It's not rocket surgery

gary
True, but on a brand new boat I'd hope the dealer would be able to say how it's wired. If it really doesn't have an automatic function it is easy enough to add, but disappointing that the new boat owner should have to do that.
 
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Aug 22, 2017
1,609
Hunter 26.5 West Palm Beach
First of all, those float switches do fail. I have even seen bad ones right out of the package when new, back when I worked at a boat yard.

Second, some of the new "fully automatic" bilge pumps don't have a visible switch on them. One of these was present in the last boat I bought. Unfortunately, it would turn on for a short while every 10 minutes or so & this killed the battery. I replaced that new generation bilge pump with an old style automatic pump & have had no problems since.

If the boat lives on a trailer & only goes in the water when people are on board, then an automatic pump may not be necessary & the possibility of a dead battery while sitting on the trailer may make an automatic pump undesirable. A boat that sits in the water full time, should have at least two automatic bilge pumps in my opinion.
 
Jul 27, 2011
4,990
Bavaria 38E Alamitos Bay
Thanks for the replies. To clarify, on our recent model Beneteau, the auto bilge function is turned on by a switch on the electrical panel, which needs to be energized. On the Dufour, there's only a switch for manual operation, also on the electrical panel. I know production boats cut corners to save costs, but this is getting ridiculous.
So. In my 1999 Bavaria 38E the Johnson electric bilge pump was wired to a panel switch that had to be manually switched on for the pump to activate, as you describe above. I admit this seems weird compared to “traditional” set-ups involving a float switch. I’ve since rewired the system inserting a float switch and bilge alarm which are always powered. But now to test-activate the pump I must raise the float of the float switch.

The main reason I did this was because I had started keeping the boat in another city, Ventura, some 90 miles away through LA traffic most of the way. Visits to the boat were sometimes two to three weeks apart, etc. If the boat started taking water, at least it MIGHT have a fighting chance until I arrived following a neighbor altering me that me alarm had gone off, etc., and calling for help from the Harbor Patrol.

Why are the boats’ bilges rigged this way? IMHO, it’s mostly due to the features of a mid-sized yacht w/sail drive. For one thing, there is no shaft and thus no stuffing box to perpetually leak slowly, or to spring a large leak when the hose clamp rusts through and pops off, etc. The bilge is not v-shaped and deep. It’s flat. So any water that does get in there spreads out; does not collect in one deep spot. For water to get high enough over that area to activate a switch, you’d need around 30 or more gallons in there. Without the slow ingress from shafts the designers concluded the low need for a float-switch activated pump.

With all of the thru hulls closed whenever one is off the boat, there is low risk of sudden water ingress from below the water line. Most of the water that does arrive to the bilge comes from above, or from the FW system. If you did spring a “big” leak below the water line (e.g., 1 inch diameter hole), the single factory-installed bilge pump would likely not save the boat anyway even if it did come on. I tested mine again recently and it (rated 1800 GPH) could not keep up with a ingress of only 8 or so gal/min (480 GPH). Figure a 30 to 50 gal head start on flooding b/f the pump even knows it’s in rising water, so there’s a problem. If the boat were heeling, it would require MUCH more to reach the pump.
 
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May 24, 2004
7,129
CC 30 South Florida
That is the way boats used to come. You have as switch and you turn it on when you step aboard and maybe again when you leave the boat. Boat designers introduced the electrical bilge pump as a convenience item so boat operators would not have to scoop or manually pump the water out. So the scooping up ritual was replaced by flipping a switch. The installation of a float switch or an automatic pump makes it convenient as the pump can operate on its own even if the boat is unattended. But, let's not forget that the bilge pump is just a convenience item and not a safety device, it is just intended to discharge incidental water collected in the bilge and will be easily overwhelmed by any significant water intrusion. The installation of float switches created a new problem as they get easily stuck an can kill the batteries. For safety conduct frequent inspections of your through hulls, valves, hoses and clamps. These small pumps are rated in a bench with no discharge hoses, that 500 GPH pump in a real life installation will be pressed to provide 150 GPH capacity. With heat losses, voltage variations and having to lift water a few heads they just do not perform to rated capacities. They are fine though for what they were designed. Some say that the smaller boats need the larger pumps as they will fill faster my response is that incidental water should never fill a boat. I had a boat with a manual switch and after a couple of years I replaced the pump with an automatic one. I have to say that I did not notice any improvement other than not having to flip the switch On and Off. If boat buyers want to believe that bilge pumps can save a boat from sinking the average boat manufacturer will let you believe it. Dufour is more honest and better serve their customers by not propagating a false sense of security.
 
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Jul 23, 2009
857
Beneteau 31 Oceanis Grand Lake, Oklahoma
My 88 Beneteau First 285 did not have an automatic switch option installed from the factory, I wish it did and it does now.

Several years ago I accidentally left the boat with the battery switches on and the fresh water pump on. The fresh water system had two very small leaks and the pump would cycle briefly every few minuets. The fresh water filled the bilge and did a small amount of damage to the floorboard. I have repaired the leaks and installed an automatic switch for the bilge pump.

FYI When it rains my bilge collects a small amount of water, usually not enough to turn the pump on. However when I installed the refrigeration unit I used an air cooled system and set it up to draw air from the bilge. Now the bilge is dry, even though the ports still leak.
 
May 17, 2004
5,032
Beneteau Oceanis 37 Havre de Grace
The fresh water filled the bilge and did a small amount of damage to the floorboard.
I agree. Even though a nuisance leak won't sink the boat, it could still put enough water in to cause damage or at least create excess humidity.
when I installed the refrigeration unit I used an air cooled system and set it up to draw air from the bilge. Now the bilge is dry, even though the ports still leak.
Hmmm, where is the unit installed? If it's in the cabin I'm afraid all you're doing is taking the liquid water out of the bilge and using it to humidify the cabin. Not sure I'd want all that water in the air. If the unit is in a hatch or lazarette separate from the cabin I guess it's a good solution.