News flash: cool fast boats sell.

weinie

.
Sep 6, 2010
1,297
Jeanneau 349 port washington, ny
Respectfully, I think you’re still missing the point. There are boat manufacturers in the US that need to sell new boats to survive. By your own statement, most US buyers have no need to go out and buy a new boat, so if you’re selling to such a small audience what’s the best strategy? 1) Keep selling the same style of boat that’s been made for 30 years, and could be bought used for a fraction of the price; or 2) build something really new that can’t just be bought used?
Well said.
3 years ago, i walked into a catalina dealer just to kick the tires. Came out with a brochure for a Jeanneau which they also began selling. A few weeks later I gave them my deposit. Faster and lighter and rigged with more modern hardware, rigged with a small fractional jib and large main, designed to fly a cruising chute or 'code 0' from a top down furler, and a more clean looking, bright minimalist interior which I like. It was a nice change from my old dark wood catalina.
And the price was right (relatively speaking).
(stock photo)
 
Oct 10, 2011
619
Tartan 34C Toms River, New Jersey
Just to give some input. I was in the marine industry for many years, before health problems forced me out. but I would like to pass on some sales numbers to everyone.
These numbers come from a trade magazine I receive every month (Trade Only) The numbers below represent 30 states, which is about 55% of the boat market.
NEW WATERCRAFT
Total watercraft sales July 2017............ 22,617 this number includes all types of watercraft. example: Main power boat segments... 12,379.
Now here is the number of all Sailboats.......139
Total July 2016 sales....22,742
Sailboat sales.........172
Year 2016........168,891 January thru July
Sailboat sales..............1,542
Year 2017........174,202 January thru July
Sailboat sales..............970
All of these numbers are from this Trade Magazine. So if you disagree contact them @ tradeonlytoday.com
The point of my post is that in my opinion, the market for a new expensive sailboat is bleak to say the least.
My guess is that the European and Asian market are more into Sail. For a US company to go global may not be cost effective.
Example: Hunter which was owned by Silverton Maine, was sold off when the mother company closed there doors. Of course this is just my uneducated opinion.
Just to throw in something I love my almost 50 year old boat.
 
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Sep 25, 2016
88
Oday 22 Lake Arthur
Respectfully, I think you’re still missing the point. There are boat manufacturers in the US that need to sell new boats to survive. By your own statement, most US buyers have no need to go out and buy a new boat, so if you’re selling to such a small audience what’s the best strategy? 1) Keep selling the same style of boat that’s been made for 30 years, and could be bought used for a fraction of the price; or 2) build something really new that can’t just be bought used?
I'm not missing the point. Either way (modern or classic) it's a niche market.

My point is there is at least as much of a (new boat) market for classic lines in the US as there is for new performance lines and IKEA interiors. Which isn't much, either way.

Or, to put it differently, everybody is equally in trouble.

Or, to put it another way, if Pogo opened up a US factory, it wouldn't have 2 years worth of orders waiting either.

You want to know how to SELL MOAR BOATZ?

Enabling the middle class would go a long way.

Make sailing less, not more, uppity. Less images of old WASPy guys in Commodore hats at the Yacht Club with their $500K yachts that they motor around the harbor a few times per year and more tan and fit young people getting the spray in their faces on something reasonably priced like a Hunter 15 or and RS Aero.

Also, remove the absolutely pervasive attitude that a boat is nothing but a money sink. I hear it all the time, since I'm not living a life of VC or lawyer money and you all have heard the bullshit, too: Break Out Another Thousand; A boat is a hole in the water you pour your money into, the 2 happiest days in a man's life, etc. None of which is true; I have less than $2K total invested in my boat & trailer and I'm happy as a clam.

Educate people that sailing is a sport in and of itself; too many people (at least in my area) equate boat with fishing, period. Typical conversation...
Them:"Oh, you sail."
Me: "Yup."
Them: "What do you do on your boat?"
Me: "Sail."
Them: "Do you fish?"
Me: "No, I sail. I use my skill to harness the wind and challenge my abilities."
Them: "But what do you do once you're out there?"
Me: "ArrrrgghhgghghI'mgoingtoeatyourface."

Again, my point: Sailing has bigger problems than not producing snazzy enough boats.
 
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Nov 8, 2010
11,386
Beneteau First 36.7 & 260 Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
I'm going to go out on a limb and say that the people buying these new boats in Europe are the nouveau riche with more money than sense. That's the market. That market doesn't exist in the US. The middle class is gone.
As a datapoint, I can tell you I know 5 Pogo owners personally. None are nouveau riche, they are upper middle class couples. Professionals or small business owners. Each has chosen to buy a boat and forgo the classic '2nd home near the coast' that 80% of their friends own.

That's simular thing I think here in MN. Most of my friends either own a 'lake house', or a sailboat. Indeed, I sold my lake house to focus on sailing.

Maybe they just have more time to enjoy them which helps the mental math.
 
Nov 8, 2010
11,386
Beneteau First 36.7 & 260 Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
Or, to put it another way, if Pogo opened up a US factory, it wouldn't have 2 years worth of orders waiting either.
Totally agree with that, it makes no sense for them to have more than one production facility. That 2 year backlog is from the global market, including several from the USA. I've talked to them about the process of buying from the USA. The delivery and product warrantee process is very straight forward; not much different from buying a domestic boat with no local dealer.
 
Oct 10, 2011
619
Tartan 34C Toms River, New Jersey
I'm not missing the point. Either way (modern or classic) it's a niche market.

My point is there is at least as much of a (new boat) market for classic lines in the US as there is for new performance lines and IKEA interiors. Which isn't much, either way.

Or, to put it differently, everybody is equally in trouble.

Or, to put it another way, if Pogo opened up a US factory, it wouldn't have 2 years worth of orders waiting either.

You want to know how to SELL MOAR BOATZ?

Enabling the middle class would go a long way.

Make sailing less, not more, uppity. Less images of old WASPy guys in Commodore hats at the Yacht Club with their $500K yachts that they motor around the harbor a few times per year and more tan and fit young people getting the spray in their faces on something reasonably priced like a Hunter 15 or and RS Aero.

Also, remove the absolutely pervasive attitude that a boat is nothing but a money sink. I hear it all the time, since I'm not living a life of VC or lawyer money and you all have heard the bullshit, too: Break Out Another Thousand; A boat is a hole in the water you pour your money into, the 2 happiest days in a man's life, etc. None of which is true; I have less than $2K total invested in my boat & trailer and I'm happy as a clam.

Educate people that sailing is a sport in and of itself; too many people (at least in my area) equate boat with fishing, period. Typical conversation...
Them:"Oh, you sail."
Me: "Yup."
Them: "What do you do on your boat?"
Me: "Sail."
Them: "Do you fish?"
Me: "No, I sail. I use my skill to harness the wind and challenge my abilities."
Them: "But what do you do once you're out there?"
Me: "ArrrrgghhgghghI'mgoingtoeatyourface."

Again, my point: Sailing has bigger problems than not producing snazzy enough boats.
I could not have said it better. My friend you hit the nail square on the head.
 
Oct 26, 2008
6,051
Catalina 320 Barnegat, NJ
I don't think the lack of available money in the middle class is really the issue. I think our economy has been stronger than Europe's economy for a long time. Their middle class is strangled by taxes and shrinking income more than ours. Income stratification is probably more extreme in Europe. "Old money" and their spending habits is probably no different there than it is here. I would bet that the overall market for expensive toys is far more robust in the US than it is in Europe and I would bet that our younger generations are earning just as significantly, or more significantly than in Europe. The cost of healthcare isn't the issue. The cost of education isn't the issue. The difference is simply lack of interest in sailing. For whatever reason, Americans just aren't into it and we spend our money on other things. Sport fishing boat sales and high-end motor yacht sales appear to be pretty substantial as far as I can see and the cost of these boats and maintenance are far more expensive.
I watched an episode of S/V Delos recently where the crew visited the Amel factory in France to see how the new Amel Maramu is made. The market for their spiffy new, slow-sailing tubs for cruisers also seems pretty strong. The American boat builders simply haven't been keeping up on the marketing end of the equation - they don't know how to compete among the overall market for expensive hobbies and grow a market in sailing. Hunter probably did the best with innovation, and has survived about the longest, I suppose, other than Catalina. Perhaps Beneteau USA needs to step up their game, too.
I would certainly be attracted to the Pogo that JD shows. What's not to like about the comfortable interior and performance. I would need it to be sailed without help from crew. Sue would love the speed, and it might even stimulate her interest in the boat handling characteristics. On our boat, the slowness is a little too tedious, the sail-handling just a little too pointless and inconvenient, and the lack of comfort and modern appeal is just not there for her. She has enough interest in boating that a combination of speed for excitement, cleanliness, organization and comfort would probably, really appeal.
I'm not sure those floor beams would work for her, though. If she can step backwards into the bilge and break a bone in her foot like she did this year, she could easily trip on those floors! :confused:
 
Nov 8, 2010
11,386
Beneteau First 36.7 & 260 Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
The American boat builders simply haven't been keeping up on the marketing end of the equation - they don't know how to compete among the overall market for expensive hobbies and grow a market in sailing. Hunter probably did the best with innovation, and has survived about the longest, I suppose, other than Catalina. Perhaps Beneteau USA needs to step up their game, too.
I would certainly be attracted to the Pogo that JD shows. What's not to like about the comfortable interior and performance. I would need it to be sailed without help from crew. Sue would love the speed, and it might even stimulate her interest in the boat handling characteristics. On our boat, the slowness is a little too tedious, the sail-handling just a little too pointless and inconvenient, and the lack of comfort and modern appeal is just not there for her. She has enough interest in boating that a combination of speed for excitement, cleanliness, organization and comfort would probably, really appeal.
A long time ago a mentor in the Product Planning game told me never to forget that Product Plans are bets you make, using your company's future as chips.

If you accept that these companies want to actually stay in the boat building business, it seems that they have found breathing space in three areas:

1) High performance cruisers
2) Sailboats 50 foot and longer
3) Powerboats

Its interesting to see that some have taken to 2 (J/boats(1,3), Jenaneau(2,3) or even all 3 (Beni, now Pogo)

I've owned 8 boats, and bought 1/2 of them from new. But when I dream of retiring on a sailboat, it looks mostly like this.
HomeToPort.png
 
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JRacer

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Aug 9, 2011
1,331
Beneteau 310 Cheney KS (Wichita)
Interestingly different takes on the same issue.

Raising the minimum wage wouldn't hurt. Voodoo economists be damned.
Yes, It would!

Recommend you review this short, few minute, interview.
 
Jan 11, 2014
11,324
Sabre 362 113 Fair Haven, NY
Interestingly different takes on the same issue.

Raising the minimum wage wouldn't hurt. Voodoo economists be damned.
Yes, It would!

Recommend you review this short, few minute, interview.
First, this discussion is getting dangerously close to one that Phill will shut down. In view of that, let me ask a couple of rhetorical questions that should not be answered or the conversation will devolve into a discussion that has little to do with sailing.

To Stu, you live in California. How's the economy there? I hear that CA increased taxes and have had several raise the minimum wage laws in the state.

To JRacer, you live in Kansas. How did Brownbeck's tax cuts work out? Better schools? More services? Oh wait, the Kansas legislature revoked all those tax cuts.

Let us not devolve this conversation into a political debate about the causes of the decline of the middle class and its effect on sailing and sailboat builders.

Let us talk about how we can draw folks into our favored activity and increase the base of our sport, regardless of their political flavor.
 
Feb 26, 2004
22,760
Catalina 34 224 Maple Bay, BC, Canada
To Stu, you live in California. How's the economy there? I hear that CA increased taxes and have had several raise the minimum wage laws in the state.
Nope, left there last year, got here to Canada about this time. Not the reason I left though. I no longer am concerned about the economy of California. I suppose I could look it up, but from what I hear they seem to be doing OK. Compared to say, Kansas. Interesting comparisons there.

Let us talk about how we can draw folks into our favored activity and increase the base of our sport, regardless of their political flavor.
I agree. Sailing is a sport. Like any other recreational, i.e., selective; by choice, like skiing, activity, it requires money to engage in. No $$, no sport. The two are linked. I don't think I could have lived, to say nothing about going skiing and sailing, if I didn't get a raise for almost a decade.

So yes I believe they are intertwined. But putting off ECONOMICS (which is not politics at all), the "argument" of "sailing is a dying sport" has been going on for decades, if not longer.

The "it's too slow" crowd is also being pushed by the "I never get off the couch, I'd miss my Playstation" group, too.

Nothing we can do about that group.

But we CAN support youth sailing wherever we are.

It goes back to a great question often asked on this and other boating forums: "How did YOU get into sailing?"

Most of the answers were "when I was young," "at summer camp," "my parents' yacht club..."

Many adherents to our sport left it when raising a family and came back later when they could afford it.

I stopped eating, buying beer and rum, going out to restaurants and movies, and buying gas for the car to afford my series of boats.
 
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jwing

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Jun 5, 2014
503
ODay Mariner Guntersville
...
Let us talk about how we can draw folks into our favored activity and increase the base of our sport, regardless of their political flavor.
Dave, would you agree with me that the sport of whitewater kayaking exploded in popularity because of these two innovations: 1) the switch from fiberglass to rotomold plastic and 2) design innovations that forsook old kayak racing rule limitations. In so doing, they made kayaking easier, more fun, and invented an entirely new sport (playboating). Kayaking went from a forest fairy sport to a 'rad' sport.

Surfers had preceded kayakers by switching from wood to fiberglass and evolving from long, heavy barges that were difficult to turn, to short, sporty rides. Surfing became the epitome of cool.

Windsurfers became kite boards, Schwinn 10-speeds transformed to 27-speed, dual suspension, hydraulic disk braked mountain bikes, parachutes became paragliders, cross-country skiing kick and glide became back-country powder skiing. skiing merged with skate boarding and became snow boarding. Each iteration upped the fun, the cool factor, and the number of participants.

The other common factor that drove the explosion of these new sports is that equipment designers freed themselves of old, stodgy frameworks and created very different equipment and different sports than where they started from. It seems to me that is what needs to happen in sailboat manufacturing. Remember what Hobie did for sailing? How about a <$5000 version of a Moth? Something that sailing clubs could afford to buy for their members to try out. How many new members would a typical club attract if they had a fleet of Moths instead of a fleet of Sunfish?
 
Oct 26, 2008
6,051
Catalina 320 Barnegat, NJ
Interestingly different takes on the same issue.

Raising the minimum wage wouldn't hurt. Voodoo economists be damned.
Stu, basically I am comparing European middle class to American middle class. I really doubt that the middle class in Europe is faring better economically and that is why I believe that it isn't an issue as it relates to the marketing of new sailboats. I expect the opposite is true. However, I would have to agree that Europeans have far greater free time to enjoy the activities of their choices and perhaps that is a big reason for their greater interest in sailing. I believe that America's middle class works far more hours over the course of the year, contributing to greater productivity and higher middle class income. Of course the productivity is also a great benefit to the business owner class as well.
You are right, economics is economics and while it is tied to politics, it is still a topic open for discussion as it relates to sailing, I think. I don't get the sensitivity.
I think you go off the rails with your linkage to minimum wage. Nobody making minimum wage at whatever it is now and even up to $15 per hour is in the market for new sailboats in the performance or cruising market, so simply not a factor. Do you think that a rise in minimum wage means a rise in middle class income? There may be some validity to that. Unions certainly thinks so as they typically fight for raises that are linked to the rise in minimum wage. But union membership in the private sector is declining, no? I'm sure public sector employees love to utilize rising minimum wages to justify their increases as well.
Dave, it is totally unfair to compare the economy in California to the economy in Kansas and tie it to the political climate in those locations. California has an embarrassment of geographic advantages that Kansas simply doesn't have. Everybody wants to live in California for the outdoor environment and the climate. The state simply attracts the brightest, most motivated people and the economy is driven by the crème of the crop from the USA and all around the world. Kansas has, well, flat,boring terrain and a difficult climate. It may be great for growing wheat, and I'm sure people are attracted for a variety of reasons, but basically, Kansas and states like Kansas are hemorrhaging their brightest talent, who leave for places like California. Of course California can raise their taxes and minimum wages exponentially. The overall income in the state basically has no limit because the businesses that thrive there attract the brightest minds whom innovate their way into ever expanding productivity and income. The same is true in states such as New York, and metropolitan regions such as Seattle and Boston. Imposing the same politics/economics on states that don't have those advantages would be damaging to their economy, I think.
 
Aug 3, 2012
2,542
Performance Cruising Telstar 28 302 Watkins Glen
Remember what Hobie did for sailing? How about a <$5000 version of a Moth? Something that sailing clubs could afford to buy for their members to try out. How many new members would a typical club attract if they had a fleet of Moths instead of a fleet of Sunfish?
Omg... I am swooning with lust!
Exactly! Innovate! I do not MIND luxury, but I WANT sport and speed! Thus, I sail my boat looking for speed. If you told me I could double my VMG... that’s the boat for me! I take my 19 year old son sailing on my 272, and he is, “eh.” On my motor boat, “cool!” I have yet to take him on my Telstar, but it feels like your hair is on fire! I think he will like it over the 272. Maybe even the motor boat.
Now if it foiled.... I’d have to buy him one. :)
I think people want to see the cutting edge innovation in design and materials reach their retail products with safety and durability.
 
Oct 26, 2008
6,051
Catalina 320 Barnegat, NJ
The other common factor that drove the explosion of these new sports is that equipment designers freed themselves of old, stodgy frameworks and created very different equipment and different sports than where they started from. It seems to me that is what needs to happen in sailboat manufacturing. Remember what Hobie did for sailing?
jwing, you are so right about innovation in established sports. I remember the 90's when I was ski racing on straight, narrow skis. Carving a true racing-style turn was a skill that could only be developed during years of training, and basically, only accomplished athletes could ever develop the skill, usually by starting to develop the skill at a young age. About that time, we started watching snow-boarders carving turns on short boards with radical sidecuts. I'm absolutely convinced that snowboards hastened the advance of the modern shaped ski. Until then, the stodgy, traditional European ski manufacturers shunned any changes to their traditional ski shapes. Then, Bode Miller, skiing from Sugarloaf Mtn in Maine, went to the Junior National Ski Championships in the mid to late 90's and absolutely ripped the competition to shreds (on his way to the World Cup circuit and numerous World Cup Globes) on his radical shaped skis made by the American manufacturer, K2. Within months the ski manufacturing world entered a revolution in the production of shaped skis. Maybe it was pure coincidence, but I'm convinced that it was the advance in snowboards that stimulated this revolution in ski manufacturing. And basically it was a matter of survival for the industry.

It wasn't just for racers. New skiers could now learn carved turns, which almost became automatic when you got on those skis. I taught Sue how to ski when she was in her mid-thirties as a first time beginner back around 1998-2000. She never experienced the old style straight skis. I bought her shaped skis to learn on and she was carving turns on expert terrain by the end of her second season. She progressed so rapidly that I basically spent minimal time on flat slopes skiing at slow speeds. The agonizingly tedious agony of skiing with a beginner was absolutely short-circuited. Sue's progress was just typical of the hastened learning curve that was accommodated by the new ski technology. We ran across so many of the curmudgeonly traditionalists that insisted that the traditional skis were just as relevant to ski on, and just shook our heads. Anyway, that's my take on innovation, and I'm sticking to it.
 
Jan 11, 2014
11,324
Sabre 362 113 Fair Haven, NY
Dave, it is totally unfair to compare the economy in California to the economy in Kansas and tie it to the political climate in those locations.
Scott, this is a comparison that many economists and politicians are making. Governor Browback in Kansas urged the state to lower taxes to a ridiculous level and promised that by lowering taxes the economy in Kansas would blossom and it would become the land of milk and honey. The Kansas Legislature bought his folly, the states economy collapsed, schools were underfunded, people left the state and the deficit exploded.

Governor Brown and the California state legislature took a different approach, they raised taxes, maintained public programs, some municipalities increased the minimum wage and the CA economy rebounded with growth exceeding that of the nation.

States are often referred to as "experiments in democracy" this was a good example of 2 states taking different directions in public policy and getting 2 very different results.
 
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jwing

.
Jun 5, 2014
503
ODay Mariner Guntersville
...
Dave, it is totally unfair to compare the economy in California to the economy in Kansas and tie it to the political climate in those locations...
When assessing the success or failure of Kansas's experiment, many economists have been comparing Kansas to neighboring states with similar surface features, climate, natural resources, industries, and culture. Compared to the economic conditions of surrounding states during the same period, Brownback's Folly has been a miserable economic failure. I hope the federal government learns the lesson.
 
Jan 11, 2014
11,324
Sabre 362 113 Fair Haven, NY
Dave, would you agree with me that the sport of whitewater kayaking exploded in popularity because of these two innovations: 1) the switch from fiberglass to rotomold plastic and 2) design innovations that forsook old kayak racing rule limitations. In so doing, they made kayaking easier, more fun, and invented an entirely new sport (playboating). Kayaking went from a forest fairy sport to a 'rad' sport.
JW, more or less I agree with you. When I started kayaking in the early 70s boats were exceptionally heavy, think a Klepper fiberglass kayak weighing in at about 50#. Due to some innovative folks, designs got better, lighter, and more maneuverable. My kayak, which was a second generation, was light at about 30# with a laminate made of fiberglass and nylon cloth and was responsive enough to be fun in rapids and easy to paddle on flat water. The early rotomolded boats were heavy and clunky but less expensive. Eventually they figured out how to make better designs in rotomolded boats and that aspect of the sport became more popular.

Another branch of the sport also developed based on the Inuit designs and flatwater racing designs and became sea kayaking. Long skinny boats that tracked well and had decent carrying capacity.

Relevant to the topic of this thread, is the idea of design development and finding a way to bring good design to folks at a lower cost. If rotomolded designs had not developed as they did and the only options for kayaks today were kevlar and carbon fiber boats, I don't think kayaking would be as popular as it is.

There is in kayaking and canoeing a wide range of boats and designs available at various price points. When we bought our Hornbeck boats this summer, I lusted after the carbon fiber model, a 12 foot solo canoe weighing around 12 lbs. Alas, the price tag was greater than my budget, but i did get the carbon fiber paddle.

Here's a link to Hornbeck Boats.
 
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Jan 11, 2014
11,324
Sabre 362 113 Fair Haven, NY
Nope, left there last year, got here to Canada about this time. Not the reason I left though. I no longer am concerned about the economy of California. I suppose I could look it up, but from what I hear they seem to be doing OK. Compared to say, Kansas. Interesting comparisons there.
Time to update your profile. Or is there a San Francisco, Canada? :biggrin:
 
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