now morris makes a NICE traditional interior. This I could settle into nicely:
News flash: cool fast boats sell.
- Thread starter Jackdaw
- Start date
But your Pogo looks silly.
It gets its design cues from the current crop of serious monohull racers. That's fine, if that's what your into, but to me owning and sailing one would be like taking a McLaren-Honda Formula 1 car to the grocery store.
I might want to take a McLaren around the block once or twice, but that's about it.
Your "modern" race inspired boats ride rough, with that flat bow. They heel too much. They act like racers, not a relaxing afternoon.
I'm looking for waaaay more practical. Maybe that's what designers should design...
I could be down with that.now morris makes a NICE traditional interior. This I could settle into nicely:
It is barely October and already we have a thread with a dead of winter, we're bored and want to go sailing flavor. It could be a long winter. 
How do you know any of these things? Have you been on one? Near one, Sailed one?
I’ll go back to the original question, and my original statement of fact. These things are selling. Traditional boats are not. So the question is: what should the current builders do if they want to survive? Catering to the demands of someone who’s never going to buy a boat is probably not the correct answer
I fit that Demographic at 52, but even having a good professional job, and making a great salary compared to what my parents made, If I had not found the Stargazer for free, I would not have been a sailboat owner today, and I will tell you why.
What is the one major difference between Middle Class incomes and lifestyles between the US and Europe, Or between now, and 30 years ago for our parents? Both of my parents were public high school teachers, and made just ok money. However they still had enough money to own a sailboat, and send their 4 kids to college. So why is it so hard for those of us in their same position today?
Healthcare Costs.
Both of my parents had 100% health coverage with no out of pocket expenses through their work. Most Europeans today have similar healthcare coverage from their government. On the other hand here in the United states, my current group insurance payment for my family of four would easily cover a boat payment for a REALLY nice sailboat.
Its not that American Gen-Xers and Millennials don't want to sail, It is that they cant afford to buy a house or an apartment, let alone a sailboat. Remember, my parents could afford to send me to college on a public school teachers salary. I am scrambling to pay for my Kid's educations even after signing them up for prepaid state tuition when they were infants. Millenials have the same healthcare costs as I do, plus they are having to pay off student loans as well. Disposable incomes in the US have almost disappeared.
As a manufacturer myself, I am always trying to figure out the who and why of the market. Knowing what I do about my customers who are in this chronological bracket and older, I see a real desire today in many of them to remain "cool". For this reason, I suspect that if Hunter could build this boat at a competitive level with Pogo, they would need to first build a sub-culture of cool/young folks using their boats in a counter-culture way. You are really only cool today (perhaps it has always been this way) when you are doing/using things that are not yet cool!
Sorry Jackdaw for not really speaking to your point but hopefully my thoughts can add to the discussion. We need to produce more things for more markets domestically and we manufacturers need to listen to the market rather than our own preferences. Seth Godin made the most profound observation I have ever heard about business; Customers are never irrational. To the degree that we argue with them about how they spend their dollars we are proportionately likely to fail.
Thanks for provoking these thoughts and discussion.
Dan
Some great nuggets in this, thanks for posting!
First re 'cool', Pogo in this case does have a leg up; as builders of Mini-transats and Class 40 boats, they are in the public eye in France as cool as much as NASCAR cars are here, except they are the real deal and not decals. So that helps. There. Here, not as much.
Second, Partially because of the last of the first point I'm not necessarily advocating that the like of Hunter take on the fast planing cruiser market, just wondering out loud what SHOULD they do. Clearly what they are doing is not working well.
Third, I totally agree that can't argue with what customers are doing with their wallets. That was my original point... what Pogo is doing is working. Personally not liking the boats has nothing to do with it. Anyone that argues that they 'don't like the interior' is totally missing the larger point here.
You are beginning to hint at the one of the main reasons, the French are considerably more passionate about sailing, sailing fast, and winning big races than most any other country. Why is the market here different from the market in France? Because we aren't French. Why are Soccer fans around the world passionate about soccer and we're not? Who knows, but we're not. We seem to enjoy watching inflict brain damage on each other. Sort of reminiscent of the Gladiator battles in the Coliseum.
So, Jack, what's the build date on your Pogo?
To connect my kayak photo to the things that Jackdaw and danstanford have written: When Eric Jackson was starting his kayak manufacturing business, I asked him about his business model. Part of the problem with selling kayaks is that they are nearly indestructible: second- and third-hand kayaks are every bit as good as a new kayak. Eric told me that he planned to sell his boats at a slightly lower price than the competition, but the only way to stay in business was to create demand for new boats through constant design innovation. Right out of the gate, his kayak designs were a few steps ahead of the competition, and he stayed out in front. Bottom Line: Low price plus high quality plus constant innovation = High value to the customer.
New whitewater kayak sales (all brands) amounts to 17,000 new boats per year. So I don't buy the argument that young folks are too absorbed by their cell phones.
Innovations that would make me consider buying a new boat: Increased comfort in a smaller boat, much less expensive maintenance expenses (including more durable/reliable components and systems), and materials and manufacturing techniques such that new boats were affordable to me, factory commissioning so that the boat is no-hassle, ready to sail on the first day.
New whitewater kayak sales (all brands) amounts to 17,000 new boats per year. So I don't buy the argument that young folks are too absorbed by their cell phones.
Innovations that would make me consider buying a new boat: Increased comfort in a smaller boat, much less expensive maintenance expenses (including more durable/reliable components and systems), and materials and manufacturing techniques such that new boats were affordable to me, factory commissioning so that the boat is no-hassle, ready to sail on the first day.
Back in the Carter Administration when I was into whitewater Kayaking, the boats were all fiberglass. Kevlar was an exotic fiber that few could afford. The good news for builders was the fiberglass boats were somewhat disposable, there were only so many holes and cracks that could be repaired before the boat was too heavy and clunky to paddle. The few companies building boats competed on design and weight and cast aspersions on the "tupperware" boats made of rotomolded plastic. How times have changed!
Now, when we are not sailing, we paddle solo canoes that weigh 15# (the wife's boat) and 18# (my boat) with carbon fiber paddles weighing in at less than 2#.
Age was briefly mentioned but its also an interesting aspect for whom manufactures sell to.
Im going by my own experience so this could be off but someone in their "50's" is going to care more about going fast. In their "60's", comfort becomes more important. Now pushing 62, I would go for something that was nice to live in and sailed "not bad". Ie, one of these
Im going by my own experience so this could be off but someone in their "50's" is going to care more about going fast. In their "60's", comfort becomes more important. Now pushing 62, I would go for something that was nice to live in and sailed "not bad". Ie, one of these
Trawlers look "cool" to people even older (and they are).
Okay, pretend I didn't make "motel 6" comments and whatev, above.
To answer the question posed in the first post....
There are too many really good, nice old boats out there that work and look and sail great. (your "tubby cruisers" comment not withstanding)
I'm going to go out on a limb and say that the people buying these new boats in Europe are the nouveau riche with more money than sense. That's the market. That market doesn't exist in the US. The middle class is gone.
There is some new money in the tech business, but Paul Allen buys bigger boats than these, and no one else in tech can find the time in their 80-hour work weeks to do something as frivolous as sail. They're the ones kayaking, instead.
Old money always goes for less ostentatious, more tasteful, more classic. Except for hard core competitors, old money isn't looking for exotic lines or crazy speeds. I doubt you are going to find many of these hard-angled wide assed European race boats in Newport harbor or Edgartown or Montauk or Chatham or Glouster (MA).
A serious racer will go to Europe for a Pogo. If I was running the Fastnet, of course I'd want something like what you are suggesting over an old Bristol. Sure. But for just about any other reason, I'd rather have something smooth and pretty and classic for about 1/3 the $$$$$.
That's why no one makes your boats in the US.
To answer the question posed in the first post....
New sailboats are a niche market. Nobody with any sense and/or a budget is going to want one.
There are too many really good, nice old boats out there that work and look and sail great. (your "tubby cruisers" comment not withstanding)
I'm going to go out on a limb and say that the people buying these new boats in Europe are the nouveau riche with more money than sense. That's the market. That market doesn't exist in the US. The middle class is gone.
There is some new money in the tech business, but Paul Allen buys bigger boats than these, and no one else in tech can find the time in their 80-hour work weeks to do something as frivolous as sail. They're the ones kayaking, instead.
Old money always goes for less ostentatious, more tasteful, more classic. Except for hard core competitors, old money isn't looking for exotic lines or crazy speeds. I doubt you are going to find many of these hard-angled wide assed European race boats in Newport harbor or Edgartown or Montauk or Chatham or Glouster (MA).
A serious racer will go to Europe for a Pogo. If I was running the Fastnet, of course I'd want something like what you are suggesting over an old Bristol. Sure. But for just about any other reason, I'd rather have something smooth and pretty and classic for about 1/3 the $$$$$.
That's why no one makes your boats in the US.
Respectfully, I think you’re still missing the point. There are boat manufacturers in the US that need to sell new boats to survive. By your own statement, most US buyers have no need to go out and buy a new boat, so if you’re selling to such a small audience what’s the best strategy? 1) Keep selling the same style of boat that’s been made for 30 years, and could be bought used for a fraction of the price; or 2) build something really new that can’t just be bought used?