News flash: cool fast boats sell.

[Will Gilmore]

Dan, thanks for the thoughtful response. While I'm not a racer nor interested in racing and don't know what a Pogo is versus other boats, what I have been reading in this thread is also a discussion of degenerating boating markets. Jack has a very fine point that the racing market is holding up the production boat market over other types of new boats. He also points out that power boat sales are not suffering the way sail markets are. I, in my round about way, am agreeing with him while offering a possible explanation founded in my point of view (non-racer). The big manufactures are conservative because they are ultimately business people. The consumers of non racing boats, as you point to yourself as example, have criteria to consider beyond pure performance. I am suggesting that the attributes of those who would choose sail over power and cruising/economy over performance, tend to be people who like to make, fix, create, design solutions for themselves, to practice a certain independence that doesn't lend itself to being part of the NEW boat market if price is an object. They may be poised out there to snap- up new Boat's if any decent quality boats were produced at an economical price but, conservative business models are not designed to either discover that market or exploit it.
If, as Jack suggested, the transformative performance class boats were to plateau for a while, the spare-no-expense racer and the super rich got-to-have-the-best markets would still go for the new styles but everyone else, like Jack says, would turn to, just as good, used boats. Until the boating industry discovers a way, and had motivation to treat the cruising sail market like the automobile industry. How many people do any of us know with cars older then 4 years old unless they are antique collectibles?
I look forward to getting into the meat of this discussion and please forgive me if I seem a little dense at times. As one who likes to create, fix, and design, I tend to take a devil's advocate position if it looks like a unique perspective to explore.
- Will (Dragonfly)

 

[Barnacle Bill]

Back in the day, when I used to race in Canada, I was told that there were incentives for sailing. Not exactly sure what they were or how to get them. Maybe they don't exist anymore.

 

[Will Gilmore]

My father tells a story of a boat designer from the Tampa Bay area who built a sailboat to race in a local regata/ race event that he and a bunch of friends held each year just for fun. The boat was successful and gain some local fame to the extent that a writer for Sailing magazine (my father tells me that magazine doesn't exist any more) interviewed the designer. At the end of the interview the writer asked the designer, "So, what do you think we can do to promote sailing and get more people interested?" The boat designer's reply was, "Why would we want to do that?"
- Will (Dragonfly)

 

[mm2347]

That's exactly what we are talking about. We've loaded up a Pogo with 4 people, all the food and drink we could buy, full tanks, an anchor and 200 feet of chain, and simply blow by regular boats. And they looked all stressed and wobbly; we trucked straight through.

The 36 is the same deal.

OH MY! I know I can't afford it but I watched the video as many guys would watch an edgy, beautiful woman walking by.

 

[Jackdaw]

My father tells a story of a boat designer from the Tampa Bay area who built a sailboat to race in a local regata/ race event that he and a bunch of friends held each year just for fun. The boat was successful and gain some local fame to the extent that a writer for Sailing magazine (my father tells me that magazine doesn't exist any more) interviewed the designer. At the end of the interview the writer asked the designer, "So, what do you think we can do to promote sailing and get more people interested?" The boat designer's reply was, "Why would we want to do that?"
- Will (Dragonfly)

Ha! That's probably true. Yacht designers typically are not totally interested in the 'appeal' of their designs, they get paid for the design created to a spec that the builder (or one-off owner) creates. And maybe a small per-hull commission.

The people with their butts in the fire are the product managers. They are the ones tasked with finding an opening in the existing product landscape, specing a boat to match, having it designed and then building it before anyone else does. Plus estimating a run rate and total number of hulls so they can correctly amortize the tooling and R&D costs per unit. Big job.

 

[Will Gilmore]

Ha! That's probably true. Yacht designers typically are not totally interested in the 'appeal' of their designs, they get paid for the design created to a spec that the builder (or one-off owner) creates. And maybe a small per-hull commission.

I grew up running around Clearwater Bay Marine Ways, my father was good friends with Clark Mills who built 7 boats for my father, including the opti I learned to sail on. That group of people were truly boat people. Most were commercial boaters, like my father, but weekends saw them at play on the water too. The point my father tried to make with his story was that getting more people out on the water would only #@<%- up a beautiful place to play and screw with the rules of a game that others were perfectly content with just the way it was.
- Will (Dragonfly)

 

[Jackdaw]

The point my father tried to make with his story was that getting more people out on the water would only #@<%- up a beautiful place to play and screw with the rules of a game that others were perfectly content with just the way it was.

OK, but look where THAT got us! ;^\

 

[Will Gilmore]

Yeah,

The tide is one of the strongest forces on Earth and pushing against it isn't going to work.
That's why we learn to innovate
Even when it doesn't work, it's NEVER a mistake.
- Will (Dragonfly)

 

[Jackdaw]

That's why we learn to innovate

True. I think its really interesting to look at the history of modern sailboat making, in the context of this conversation.

Most of the players who did not survive (O'day, Pearson, Islander, Cal, Ranger, Bistol, etc) were born at the start of the boom, and never knew anything different. Any honestly, none of them did anything different (except try and make the same boats cheaper) right up until the day they died.

So how did the survivors survive? Each (like Catalina) took its own path. But I think its interesting to look at a company like Beneteau, who have been making boats for over 140 years. To do that you have to learn to deal with change.

They use to make fishing trawlers, that business went away.
They use to make wood boats, that business went away.
They used to make pleasure fishing boats, that business went away.
They used to make IOR-based racer/cruisers, that business went away.

So how do YOU not go way? By keeping an eye open for whats next. Its not surprising that Beneteau constantly runs design tests of radical new ideas to see if they will make it to market. That takes time and commitment.

Deck-level boat for casual cruising and live-in-harbors? The Sense line
Wing sail? Still not ready
Foiling raceboat? Figaro III

Out of all of this comes many avenues to market:
Sense
First
Figaro OD
Oceanis
Oceanus Yacht
Monte Carlo
Grand Tourismo
Swift Trawler

Funny, but they also passed on a small/fast cruiser about 10 years ago. Called the Mouette. Finot did the design study. I think it ended up being a Pogo.

 

[dlochner]

One of Beneteau's innovations was not so much a product but a method. They were one of the first production builders to move to CNC. This allowed them to reduce production costs through reduced labor and reduced waste material. If I remember correctly, they cut all the parts in France and then shipped them to the South Carolina plant for assembly.

Keeping costs down allowed them to keep prices down and make sailing somewhat more affordable.

 

[Will Gilmore]

One of Beneteau's innovations was not so much a product but a method.

I think you will find a number of giants of industry made innovative decisions outside their direct product line and benefited enormously as a result. GMC comes immediately to mind worth their innovative GMAC financing structure.
It always surprises me to watch big business fight against a tide like the changing American automobile market allowing competitors the chance to come in underneath them. These big companies spend so much time and money trying to regulate their competition out of the market that they fail to notice that if they embarrassed the tide and sailed with it, they are better positioned to take advantage of it then the new guy. But, here we are, Toyota out-sells Detroit and Tesla Motors is the only one to produce a decent electric power plant. Any one of Detroit's big three could have out done them with resources and technology. They were stuck on their past success.
This bow-board of Sailavie's is exactly the sort of small scale project that could potentially displace the "king of the mountain" if the king(s) refuses to look in the new direction.

Sorry, just had to figure out how to use that emoji.
- Will (Dragonfly)

 

[Daveinet]

My biggest complaint with Beneteau is their woodwork is so fake. Lots of plastic trim and manufactured lumber with veneers, rather than real wood. Hunter has nice woodwork, Catalina seems to be somewhere in between.

 

[Will Gilmore]

"So, what do you think we can do to promote sailing and get more people interested?" The boat designer's reply was, "Why would we want to do that?"

Ha! That's probably true. Yacht designers typically are not totally interested in the 'appeal' of their designs, they get paid for the design created to a spec

Jackdaw, just to get back to you on my quote. I talked to my dad again and he told me who he was quoting. Apparently I had a few details wrong. It was Sam Crocker, the designer of the Stone Horse, who said it inn any interview with "Sailor"? magazine, I think
- Will (Dragonfly)

 

[Jackdaw]

My biggest complaint with Beneteau is their woodwork is so fake. Lots of plastic trim and manufactured lumber with veneers, rather than real wood. Hunter has nice woodwork, Catalina seems to be somewhere in between.

The 'Alpi' lumber uses sustainable hardwoods to creates a very durable wood product that is easily duplicated. If you had ever broken a piece of trim or worse furniture in a boat you'd know what a PITA that is. With Beneteau they order it up, and if its not in warehouse, they program the CNC cutter to make one for you, and 100% assured it will fit.

Most of the people that 'complain' about the Alpi really just don't the the current color, the blond IKEA look... the last generation was darker any many people liked that more. The first color was even darker.

So for me, I prefer the builder spend the money on making the boat sail better, and not pay some craftsman big bucks to whittle the interior of my boat out of sticks!

 

[Will Gilmore]

I like the way you put that, Jackdaw
But we all know, cosmetics sells to more people. People who want substance are forced to pay more.
- Will (Dragonfly)

 

[danstanford]

People who want substance are forced to pay more.
- Will (Dragonfly)

In my industry (custom kitchen cabinets) the implementation of CNC and other high tech systems has resulted in standardization and much lower costs for high quality goods to the consumer. As CNC has evolved much of the standardization has disappeared but the remaining custom elements are more expensive only by comparison to standard. I don't think custom costs any more today than standard used to cost when adjusted for inflation. We build a vast range of 'standard' product at much higher quality than the box store stuff, but we do it at box store prices....consumers will stand for nothing less. I have a son who stick builds things to order in a little workshop in a big market, it is my belief that he will slowly starve unless he innovates his processes to lower his costs. I hope I am wrong!

 

[Will Gilmore]

Dan, I use to be an engineer for a furniture company. I have seen just what you are talking about. The issues around that get really interesting. I tried to oversee the installation of a conversion program called RouterCim that took our AutoCAD drawings and output G-codes for our PTP router. The operator wanted a different program than the engineers. As the lead, I overruled him since RouterCim didn't require all our drawings to be reformatted. He actually dropped the whole program from his end and continued hand inputting code.
The other issue is around process. The CNCs are hugely expensive but highly flexible. Multiple operations can be done at one machine. The loss off parallel processing actually slows production even though a single part takes less time to process over all.
Process and industrial engineering is fascinating.
The problems are mostly based in communications and paradigm shifts that aren't fully embraced but, we ARE getting there.
- Will (Dragonfly)

 

[Jackdaw]

As sailors begin to recognize that interior woodwork makes up a sizable percentage of the cost and weight of the boat, its interesting to see tastes change toward 'leaner' interiors. We'll soon have a generation of sailors who have never seen a full wood interiors of a traditional sailboat, and they'll think it weird and old fashioned, the way we feel when we jump back into a 1970s car.

Kids see this, and think this. And they will inherit the sport.

 

[JimInPB]

a conversion program called RouterCim that took our AutoCAD drawings and output G-codes for our PTP router.

In the CNC world, that software is known as a post-processor, or simply a post.

 

[TomY]

I don't think that will happen, Jack.

Wood never goes out of style. Fashions in sailboat design come and go all the time. You're right about that 70's car. It's more a fleeting fashion than a style that endured.

But take this classic car, it's design is timeless. Kids with a good eye, will love the design of this car.