News flash: cool fast boats sell.

Nov 8, 2010
11,386
Beneteau First 36.7 & 260 Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
I'm not sure that's the reason for a ridiculously small cockpit on a cruiser. More to do with getting pooped?
Used to be part of that for sure, for some boats. Not sure about 30 foot coastal cruisers. Anyway, now regulations fix the amount of open drainage as a function of cockpit volume. And most are now open or partially open transom, which better solves the problem.
 
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Oct 26, 2008
6,075
Catalina 320 Barnegat, NJ
And it shows another problem with the typical 'cruiser'; in a effort to maximize downstairs living space, many of them have ridiculously small cockpits.
Yes, my boat is a problem this way because of the way I primarily sail the boat as a day sailor.
 

jviss

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Feb 5, 2004
6,745
Tartan 3800 20 Westport, MA
I did some reading just now on the contemporary daysailers, and it turns out Morris was into the market in 2001, Hinckley in 2005.

My friends who follow the industry say that what's selling now are big boats and daysailers. But when you think of it, the cruiser is a bit of an aberration, daysailers have been the dominant recreational sailboat for over a century. They have changed form, gotten onto trailers, went smaller and less expensive in big numbers: think Rhodes 19, O'Day Daysailer, Compac, etc., etc.; and there has been a resurgence, in the past 18 or so years, in high-end, larger daysailers.
 
Aug 3, 2012
2,542
Performance Cruising Telstar 28 302 Watkins Glen
The cutting edge in materials, design, and construction that stands the test of time will work its way from its niche into the mainstream of production. The procession will be slowed by the fact that the industry does not make a disposable product. I doubt any particular advancement will cause mass replacement by the public.
We will see planing hulls, canting keels, foils, wing sails, etc adopted slowly IF they prove effective and safe over time.
Oh no! This just hit me: Seatbelts, turn signals, air bags, bumpers... haha! Oy... wait til Congress gets ahold of these things!
 

walt

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Jun 1, 2007
3,511
Macgregor 26S Hobie TI Ridgway Colorado
How are those dfferent market segments affected by depreciation? If I were going to buy something new, that would be right up near the top with things important to me. That depreciation is also why Im not likely to buy new (Maine Sails post a long way back for buying fun real estate makes way more sense to me).
 
Nov 8, 2010
11,386
Beneteau First 36.7 & 260 Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
Another PM question, wondering if anything of the American builders have done anything in the 'fast' segment!

If I look at this, I see two recent attempts, one each from Hunter and Catalina.

First is the Hunter 27X, a 'turbo' version of the Hunter 27-3. I really really like the look of the this Glen Henderson boat. Its modern is almost every sense, and it pushes all the right buttons for me. They added a retractable sprit, and the boat flies an asym as standard.


From Catalina we're got the 275, same length but more of a 'sportboat' look. Again nice looking, modern rig, and again asym on a sprit.


Sadly neither caught on; and the number of hulls made was/has been small. While the boats LOOK fast, in general they not as fast as they could be, and more importantly not as fast as enthusiasts would have hoped. The big reason is WEIGHT. The Hunter 27x perversely weights more (8000 vs 7500) than the base 27. And the 275 was originally listed at a already-portly 4500, then relisted to 5000, which is reported to be still under the actual weight.

Weight is the mortal enemy of fast.

This is a real trick, because you have to approach this 'lightness' from the very beginning of the design phase, and it will inform all the decisions taken in the process. But its a big investment. It means cored everything, curtains and not doors, etc, etc. You have to be all-in, and expect your target customer to be as well. No half measures. 1500 lbs off each boat would have made a world of difference.
 

jviss

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Feb 5, 2004
6,745
Tartan 3800 20 Westport, MA
Is this fast and cool?

2014

New supercharged "X-Type" models are added to Morris' range of Modern Classics for the type of owner who appreciates having a little more under the hood but with all the uncompromising beauty, sophistication, quality, and luxury one expects from a Morris.

 

Bosman

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Oct 24, 2010
346
Solina 27 Wabamun, Alberta
Some years ago (2008-2010 I believe), Canadian build Andrews 28 by Sylvana Yachts made an attempt to introduce fast club racer. The boat, in theory, had all the winning elements:
- lightweight (displacement 1700 Kg / 3750 lb)
- lifting keel
- modern hull design
- performance oriented sail plan with retractable bow sprit
In the end, the production halted. Why did it fail? Economic downtime? Too radical for it's times? Too expensive?







Link to polar diagrams: http://www.sylvanayachts.com/downloads/Andrews 28 polars.pdf
 
Nov 8, 2010
11,386
Beneteau First 36.7 & 260 Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
How are those dfferent market segments affected by depreciation? If I were going to buy something new, that would be right up near the top with things important to me. That depreciation is also why Im not likely to buy new (Maine Sails post a long way back for buying fun real estate makes way more sense to me).
All about the same I'd imagine, unless one turns out to really broken. I get the deal about depreciation, but I see lots of people willing to spend $75,000+ on new Cadillac Escalades.
 
Nov 8, 2010
11,386
Beneteau First 36.7 & 260 Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
Some years ago (2008-2010 I believe), Canadian build Andrews 28 by Sylvana Yachts made an attempt to introduce fast club racer. The boat, in theory, had all the winning elements:
I remember this boat well. Light, trailerable, asym, etc, it reminds me now of the seascape 27, which is doing fine in the (mostly European) market.

Regarding performance - for anyone following along here, note that this boats weighs less then ONE HALF what the smaller-sized Hunter 27x weighs! It would simply sail circles around the Hunter.

The timing was not great (2008)
Very risky move for a small, brand new builder to go into series production (ie Left Coast Dart)
High semi-custom cost
28 feet is special buyer on this side of the Atlantic.
Sport-boat performance almost demands One Design, and there was no chance of that happening anywhere

Which is too bad, the boat deserved better.
 

RussC

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Sep 11, 2015
1,578
Merit 22- Oregon lakes
All about the same I'd imagine, unless one turns out to really broken. I get the deal about depreciation, but I see lots of people willing to spend $75,000+ on new Cadillac Escalades.
When you drive a new Escalde thousands of people see the driver and the driver feels them all looking up at his obviously superior life. how many would see him sailing his racy yacht? it's all about the numbers. :laugh:
 
Jun 29, 2010
1,287
Beneteau First 235 Lake Minnetonka, MN
The Hunter & Sylvan look familiar to me for some reason.... where have I seen a similar hull form before.... hmmmm......
 

danm1

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Oct 5, 2013
167
Hunter 356 Mamaroneck, NY
I keep coming back to this thread every week or two and I can't help thinking that all the talk of hull shape and cabin design and weight and speed are still all secondary to price when it comes to bringing new people in. The first sailboat I purchased at age 21 was a used international 420. I think I paid $1200, including the trailer, and I rented a slip on a lake for maybe $300 for the season, probably less. Thirty years ago I sold a 30 footer (purchased for $14,000 and sold for $12,000) and got out of boat ownership for awhile (kids, etc. don't ask). After twenty of those years I thought about buying a daysailer and looked at new models. Fell in love with the Colgate 26 until I looked at the price: about $40,000 at the time and $50,000 now. Well, forget that for something I might use one or two days a weekend 15-20 weekends a year. Eventually I picked up a Hunter 25.5 for $3500. Sold that recently and I'm looking for something 31-35 feet for less than $20,000. It will cost me $4-$6,000 every winter and about $2,000 every summer. I love to sail, but I will never use a boat often enough to justify more money. My kids won't either. If I could get a new boat at the top of my price range I'd get to the dealer so fast the wind would move your boats. It may just be that the material and labor costs have gotten so high that new sailboats will never be a mass market item again.
By the way, I tend to buy $35,000 cars off lease for $20-22,000, keep them for six or so years, and trade them in for $8-9,000. I am cheap, but I don't think my economic situation or attitude is very unusual.
 
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Jan 12, 2016
268
Hunter 410 Ladysmith, BC
All about the same I'd imagine, unless one turns out to really broken. I get the deal about depreciation, but I see lots of people willing to spend $75,000+ on new Cadillac Escalades.
A Cadillac buyer wants luxury, and to be seen as successful. The Escalade is a tool for ego boosting nothing more. There are way better off-road vehicles, there are way better on-road vehicles, but few that standout and scream 'look at me like' that ugly monster SUV. A new sailboat under 30' doesn't do this in today's world. The only exception may be a smaller Corsair, or Dragonfly at a local yacht club where it would be so different from everyone else's boat that it would always be noticed.

The buyer of a new small boat loves sailing more than what others think of their supposed material wealth. That puts them in much smaller company than most other 'luxury goods' buyers. Add on to the fact that good quality boats in this size can be found for a fraction of the cost used, and that new big boats are offered with 20 year bank loans and it is easy to see why the market is so much different than decades ago.
 
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Bosman

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Oct 24, 2010
346
Solina 27 Wabamun, Alberta
Sailing and powerboating were and will be expensive hobbies. There is and will be group of people buying and being able to afford new boats (often cool and/or fast will be deciding factor) and always there will be secondary market for used vessels and equipment.
I am looking at buying new 25 footer right now and I feel the price is very reasonable.
 
Jan 7, 2011
4,758
Oday 322 East Chicago, IN
I keep coming back to this thread every week or two and I can't help thinking that all the talk of hull shape and cabin design and weight and speed are still all secondary to price when it comes to bringing new people in....I am cheap, but I don't think my economic situation or attitude is very unusual.
I agree, and have followed your "model" myself.

My current boat is a 30-year old O'Day 322, purchased for $22k. Great shape, fun to sail, and with a great cabin for a 32 foot boat.

I still work, so get a day or 2 sailing in a week. But I dream of cruising....

What costs $4-5k in the winter? Winter storage?
My slip costs about $2000 for the summer, and winter storage is about $1,000. I winterize and cover the boat myself..

Greg