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News flash: cool fast boats sell.

Discussion in 'Ask All Sailors' started by Jackdaw, Oct 1, 2017. Add this thread to a FAQ

  1. cb32863

    cb32863

    Joined Jun 29, 2010
    772 posts, 68 likes
    Beneteau First 235
    US Lake Minnetonka, MN
    Have you seen one?
     


  2. Tally Ho

    Tally Ho

    Joined Jan 7, 2011
    828 posts, 79 likes
    Oday 322
    US East Chicago, IN
    Yeah, sailed on an X once. Decided I would never own a water-ballast boat that day

    But curious if JD would consider those as cool and fast?

    Not sure if MacGregor is still in business...thought they ran into financial issues a few years ago.

    Greg
     


  3. agprice22

    agprice22

    Joined Aug 3, 2012
    1,750 posts, 227 likes
    Performance Cruising Telstar 28
    US Upstate New York Watkins Glen
    I think I would fear the resale value of any design too far outside the norm. I know, my trimaran is not too common, but it is a production boat. Anything that looks too “custom” will not sell if people fear they cannot resell it.
     


  4. Tally Ho

    Tally Ho

    Joined Jan 7, 2011
    828 posts, 79 likes
    Oday 322
    US East Chicago, IN
    Not too radical looking....
    IMG_0150.JPG

    And I just read that MacGregor is officially out of business.

    Greg
     


  5. agprice22

    agprice22

    Joined Aug 3, 2012
    1,750 posts, 227 likes
    Performance Cruising Telstar 28
    US Upstate New York Watkins Glen
    Yeah, but the hybrid motor-sailor with water ballast concept is a hard sell to either sailors or power boaters. Too bad. I knew one person who had one and enjoyed it. He said it was a quick sail boat. They seemed high priced too.
     


  6. Tally Ho

    Tally Ho

    Joined Jan 7, 2011
    828 posts, 79 likes
    Oday 322
    US East Chicago, IN


  7. Jackdaw

    Jackdaw

    Joined Nov 8, 2010
    7,523 posts, 1,348 likes
    Beneteau First 36.7 & 260
    US Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
    Um no. Not personally. But Roger was no dummy. Innovative and designed to hit a market hole. And they retired the moment they knew the market was saturated. Smart.
     


  8. reworb

    reworb

    Joined Apr 22, 2011
    208 posts, 8 likes
    Beneteau 311
    US Ft Myers Beach
    My first sailboat was the 26x it was neither cool nor fast (under sail). It was a price point boat you could get one new for if memory serves me right for somewhere in the low 20s in 1995 or 6 when we bought ours. We bought it for 2 reasons 1) price about the same price as a car and 2) we didn't know if we would like sailing; if we didn't we could always use it as a powerboat (50 hp outboard). What the boat was, was innovative and got some new people into sailing. We kept it about 2 years and then traded it in on a new Catalina 28.

    Currently we have a Beneteau 311, we don't race (I'm not really a competitive person) nor do we cruise, we just day-sail. Don't know how many others are like us but at one time there seemed to be a trend to larger well set out day sailors such as S&S 30 or the Alerion line. Wonder your thoughts are as to how they fit into today's market
     


  9. TomY

    TomY Alden Forum Moderator

    Joined Jun 22, 2004
    879 posts, 269 likes
    Alden 38' Challenger yawl
    US Rockport Harbor
    You remind me that the last big swing in the new buyer US sailboat market, is (was?), the Daysailer. When the demand for big complicated cruising sailboats seemed to dry up, many of the small and medium US production builders jumped on the Daysailer wagon.

    For a couple decades now most any working sailboat design office was engaged in some sort of Daysailer design for private or commercial new boat buyers.

    The only builder that seemed to channel the new Daysailer market into a new business model, was Morris Yachts. Their DS line quickly replaced their well known and respected cruising boat line that had (apparently) run it's course.
    [​IMG]
    I liked the Daysailer concept. It was not a new idea - it was a return to sailing for sailings sake as opposed to the 70-80's concept of 'globe girdling'.

    The Day sailers were, simpler, lighter, better sailers. Top end speed wasn't the goal as much as making sailing, easy. They are beautiful boats with a combination of traditional design elements connected to more modern underbodies.

    Like all new boats, they (are)were expensive!

    It appears - now that Hinckley bought Morris - that the Morris line of Day sailers has filled their market.

    Even if it's heyday is over, the Day Sailer era has left it's mark. As new boats get more expensive, they seem to have re-emphasized performance and ease of sailing. I've seen nothing but this Day sailer concept in all the custom boats designed and built in New England in the last couple decades.

    I love the Pogo boats. I'm a fan of lighter and easier to sail. Are they a game changer,...time will tell.
     


    jviss likes this.
  10. jviss

    jviss

    Joined Feb 5, 2004
    2,109 posts, 139 likes
    Tartan 3800
    US Westborough Westport, MA
    Is the Hinckley 42' daysailer a Morris design, or other?
     


  11. cb32863

    cb32863

    Joined Jun 29, 2010
    772 posts, 68 likes
    Beneteau First 235
    US Lake Minnetonka, MN
    My personal opinion is that these things are, well, a Franken-Boat and have read that they do neither power or sail well. But, that's just me. If you own one and enjoy it so be it.

    There is more out there than Pogo. Take a look at X-Yachts, Reacher, & Seascape. I am sure there are even more but these are more "new". Reacher and Seascape are not making over 30' boats. The XP-38 is on the wish list for me though, 2 cabin version. Though a Seascape 27 would be pretty nice as well. Yes, they are spartan on the insides but, their market is OK with that. More weekender than long term cruising.

    I think it was a thread over at SA about a guy and his new Pogo 12.5 and he mentioned that Pascal Conq said that in Europe they have a different idea of what you need for cruising than over here in the US. Hence the interior differences and boat design. But, they are the ones that are selling and from appearances, the US manufacturers have turned a blind eye to it. Never know, maybe a bit of Euro-design/mindset in the US market would be a good thing.
     


    TomY likes this.
  12. Daveinet

    Daveinet

    Joined Sep 20, 2014
    724 posts, 73 likes
    Rob Legg RL24
    US Chain O'Lakes
    The best sign that the Mac 26X,M was successful was the fact that Hunter thought that was a market to compete in. The best sign that the market was saturated was the fact that the boat flopped.
    But I think the this thread misses the real point. That fact that fast boats sell is only a symptom of the saturated market. If the market was saturated with fast boats, fast boats would not be selling. With used boats holding up so well, the only market is for what doesn't currently exist, which is fast boats.
     


    Justin_NSA likes this.
  13. Jackdaw

    Jackdaw

    Joined Nov 8, 2010
    7,523 posts, 1,348 likes
    Beneteau First 36.7 & 260
    US Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
    Not sure we missed it, kinda what we're been talking about all along. You could reduce it to:

    Because used boats hold their utility and value so well, builders must continually find/invent new segments to sell into to avoid having to compete with a saturated market of used boats.
     


    Last edited: Oct 13, 2017
  14. TomY

    TomY Alden Forum Moderator

    Joined Jun 22, 2004
    879 posts, 269 likes
    Alden 38' Challenger yawl
    US Rockport Harbor
    Hinckley did their own design and may have even pre-dated the Morris DS series. Sabre did their own Day sailer, the Sabre Spirit. But Morris went from (I think) their DS 36 to much larger (50 some feet?) and a smaller, 28'er.
    Then nearly all the custom design and building was, and still is, in Day sailer design. Just the other day, I watched this 'Day sailer' deck come out of the custom builders shed in my harbor.
    Deck for 91'er.jpg
    Yup, it's big. I saw the hull launched here this spring. It's gone to another location for finishing. In 2018, it will be launched: A 91' Day sailer, for a 94 year old owner.
     


  15. Jackdaw

    Jackdaw

    Joined Nov 8, 2010
    7,523 posts, 1,348 likes
    Beneteau First 36.7 & 260
    US Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
    Tom, thanks for bring up daysailers, you are right, it was one of the last big 'plays' the builders made. You could almost add it to the list of Fast, Big, Motor, that they are looking into now.

    There is one big rub against daysailers however.... If you buy one you have to be REAL SURE that's what you want, or you have the money to not care.

    Regular production cruiser are kinda like SUVs. Big, comfortable, go most places, but slow and not super maneuverable. But you always have that notion that IF YOU WANTED TO, you could take it down to Patagonia. Same with production cruisers. Maybe cross and ocean. But a Daysailer makes no such promise. Its designed to sail elegantly for the day, have a place for your lunch, and get you home without you having to step on the deck. An Alerion Express 28 is a beautiful boat but will set you back a quarter of a million.
     


  16. TomY

    TomY Alden Forum Moderator

    Joined Jun 22, 2004
    879 posts, 269 likes
    Alden 38' Challenger yawl
    US Rockport Harbor
    You're right: The first thing about the 'Day sailer' buyers was, they were NOT interested in 'cruising', ala Cruising World magazine. Not at all in fact as even the enormous ones have minimal accommodations, tankage, etc. Many of these new buyers have the boats at second and third vacation homes on the coasts. Cruising is not their thing.

    But I see this as nothing new. In fact I think it pre dates the contemporary idea of cruising which became very popular in the 60's 70's and 80's.

    The Daysailer concept more resembles sailing of the last century where sailing was done mostly close to home, overnights, vacations. It was not as much of a life style as cruising became in the 60-70-80's. It was about sailing for sailing's sake.

    And actually, that's still how most of us sail, the old way. We have more supply than demand when it comes to sailboats, in the US right now.
     


  17. Jackdaw

    Jackdaw

    Joined Nov 8, 2010
    7,523 posts, 1,348 likes
    Beneteau First 36.7 & 260
    US Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
    Totally agree, its the aspirational part that keeps people in boats that MIGHT cruise but never do, just like 90% of the worlds SUVs that have never been off pavement!
     


  18. TomY

    TomY Alden Forum Moderator

    Joined Jun 22, 2004
    879 posts, 269 likes
    Alden 38' Challenger yawl
    US Rockport Harbor
    Here's a Morris DS doing what it was designed to do: Take a bunch of friends and family sailing for few hours.

    Easy sail handling, fun responsive boat that sails most of it's miles. Morris DS (1 of 1).jpg
     


  19. Jackdaw

    Jackdaw

    Joined Nov 8, 2010
    7,523 posts, 1,348 likes
    Beneteau First 36.7 & 260
    US Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
    And it shows another problem with the typical 'cruiser'; in a effort to maximize downstairs living space, many of them have ridiculously small cockpits.
     


    dziedzicmj likes this.
  20. justsomeguy

    justsomeguy

    Joined Feb 20, 2011
    5,695 posts, 547 likes
    MacGregor, Island Packet 35
    US Tucson, AZ/San Carlos, MX
    I'm not sure that's the reason for a ridiculously small cockpit on a cruiser. More to do with getting pooped?
     


    jviss likes this.

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