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News flash: cool fast boats sell.

Discussion in 'Ask All Sailors' started by Jackdaw, Oct 1, 2017. Add this thread to a FAQ

  1. agprice22

    agprice22

    Joined Aug 3, 2012
    1,699 posts, 204 likes
    Performance Cruising Telstar 28
    US Upstate New York Watkins Glen
    I think the idea is that there needed to be changes made between model years to keep the boat relevant. The boats slowly adopt modern features and design. Coming soon:
    Catalina 36 MkIV : open transom, tiller steer,
    Catalina MkV: dual rudder, hard chines, bulb keel, planing hull...

    ;)
     


    Jackdaw likes this.
  2. jviss

    jviss

    Joined Feb 5, 2004
    1,811 posts, 102 likes
    Tartan 3800
    US Westborough Westport, MA
    Your MkIV would be the same boat; the Mk.V, not.
    What makes these the same is the hull, with the exception of a transom cut-out and some topsides lights, minor changes to the deck; virtually identical interiors, engine layout, etc., etc.
     


  3. Jackdaw

    Jackdaw

    Joined Nov 8, 2010
    7,111 posts, 1,105 likes
    Beneteau First 36.7 & 260
    US Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
    That would be awesome!

    And they would keep rolling the serial numbers! ;^) Bet the Mk1 and Mk2 owners would hope its still not One Design!
     


  4. jwing

    jwing

    Joined Jun 5, 2014
    262 posts, 50 likes
    ODay Mariner
    US Guntersville
    No, it was not a step too far. You said, "the world has enough tubby cruisers." (BTW, you were talking about boats.) Anybody who is offended by that statement needs to seek counseling for overcoming severely low self-esteem issues.
     


    Jackdaw likes this.
  5. cb32863

    cb32863

    Joined Jun 29, 2010
    749 posts, 57 likes
    Beneteau First 235
    US Lake Minnetonka, MN


  6. dlochner

    dlochner

    Joined Jan 11, 2014
    1,075 posts, 240 likes
    Sabre 362
    US Fair Haven, NY
    Back in the day, boat builders made minor changes to boats and named the Mk 1, Mk 2, etc. Often these changes reflected minor performance improvements or ease of use. Things that did not substantially change the basic boat.

    Speaking to the Sabre Line, the Sabres 30 MK1 and MK2 have the same hull and deck, with the Mk 2 having a slightly taller rig. Same with the Sabre 28. Later, after the boat industry economic disasters of the 80s, Sabre made substantial improvements in hull and rig on the 36 and 38 and changed the model names to 362 and 382. However, to the uninitiated the boats look very similar.

    One of the factors that determine the extent to which a model changes is the cost of building new molds. Molds wear out at around 100 hulls and need to be replaced or significantly refurbished. Builders will try to amortize the cost of the mold and its development over as many boats as practical. On a boat like the Cat 30, keeping the hull the same, but changing the deck and cabin top gives it a new feel and contemporary appearance. It is much less expensive to build just a new deck mold than it is to design and build new hull and deck molds.

    When the molds for the Pogo 36 reach the end of their life, Pogo will have to make a decision, keep making the boat, make a MK2 with a few subtle design changes and improvements, or go with an entirely new design.

    If I recall correctly, Beneteau recently did this with 36.7s. The market for the boats was getting saturated and the molds a little long in the tooth. Time for a new design.

    The main point is that many factors come together to determine what kind of boat a builder will make. Catalina, IP, Tartan continue to build sailboats with a more traditional design. Tartan has tried to meet the more contemporary and racing style with the C & C line. Sabre bailed out of the sailboat business and has been very successful as powerboat company with the Black Cove and Sabre lines.
     


  7. dlochner

    dlochner

    Joined Jan 11, 2014
    1,075 posts, 240 likes
    Sabre 362
    US Fair Haven, NY
    Look at all the specs. Almost everything is identical, 1 sq ft difference in sail area, LOA, Beam, LwL are the same. Ballast and displacement are the same, and so on.

    The appearance differs because the ports have been changed, the deck layout has a more contemporary feel, it looks like they added a wing keel option. And the interior layout has changed, but in terms of characteristics that will affect sailing performance, there appears to be very little if any difference.

    When they changed the deck layout, it was likely due to aging molds and a desire to give the boat a more modern appearance. However, it appears that the hull and sail plan were unchanged.
     


    jviss likes this.
  8. John Tubb

    John Tubb

    Joined Feb 14, 2017
    381 posts, 60 likes
    O'Day 25
    US Huntsville, AL Guntersville, AL
    How about a new Telstar 30: dual rudder, hard chines, planing hull...
     


    agprice22 likes this.
  9. cb32863

    cb32863

    Joined Jun 29, 2010
    749 posts, 57 likes
    Beneteau First 235
    US Lake Minnetonka, MN
    The hull shape is different between the two boats. But I guess that is more of a tomato/tomato thing.....
     


  10. dlochner

    dlochner

    Joined Jan 11, 2014
    1,075 posts, 240 likes
    Sabre 362
    US Fair Haven, NY
    Look at the pictures side by side and blow them up. I think the apparent differences are more of an illusion than real. The old model has a very square transom, the MK2 has a more fluid design. The other difference is the shading on the hull. The MK1 image has no shading it is just a line drawing, the MK2 drawing is shaded to give the image a more artistic look.

    Anyway, the numbers on the boat, are the same. It would be expensive to completely redesign a boat with a significantly different hull form to get the same dimensions. In order to meet their price point, Catalina is not going to expend money it doesn't need to spend.
     


  11. jviss

    jviss

    Joined Feb 5, 2004
    1,811 posts, 102 likes
    Tartan 3800
    US Westborough Westport, MA
    By the way, @Jackdaw, the open transom was introduced before the Mk. 1 was introduced. The Mk. 1 came out in 1994, I believe; the sugar-scoop transom appeared in 1990.
     


    Last edited: Oct 12, 2017 at 10:46 AM
  12. Stu Jackson

    Stu Jackson

    Joined Feb 26, 2004
    19,435 posts, 349 likes
    Catalina 34
    US Maple Bay, BC, Canada
    cb, Dave is right and you may not be familiar with the details and the history of Catalinas. I have owned them since 1983 (C22 - 83 to 87, C25 - 87 to 98, C34 - 98 to present) and am the Secretary of the C34 International Association. As far as the C34 and C36 Mark I and Mark II boats are concerned, there were some minor changes made, most prominently the open transom and a slight widening of the cockpit area above the waterline. The rest of the boat remained the same, and they do race together which points out that they are identical. That was one of the principles behind the changes: keep the boats the same.

    Here are some photos of the evolution of the boats:

    http://c34.org/wikiwp/?rdp_we_resource=http://c34.org/wiki/index.php?title=Evolution_of_the_Catalina_34

    The same was true of the C36.

    As for other manufacturers' Mark I & II - I have NO idea. They may have done the same or they may have changed the boats significantly. Only owners of those boats would know. Not so, however, for Catalinas.
     


    Last edited: Oct 12, 2017 at 1:17 PM
    jviss likes this.
  13. agprice22

    agprice22

    Joined Aug 3, 2012
    1,699 posts, 204 likes
    Performance Cruising Telstar 28
    US Upstate New York Watkins Glen
    I am first in line for THAT boat... if it will go 20 kts!
    Actually, a used, late 90’s, early 2000’s Quorning Dragonfly may be my next boat.
     


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  14. Jackdaw

    Jackdaw

    Joined Nov 8, 2010
    7,111 posts, 1,105 likes
    Beneteau First 36.7 & 260
    US Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
    Someone asked me if I thought Pogo could/would survive as a USA-based company and I think no.

    I think the appetite for that kind (fast cruiser) of boat is stronger in Europe. If it was here, most of its business would be exported, which is harder on a small company. Its informative that J/boats has a subsidiary (J/Boats France) that builds the Js sold in Europe.

    Pogo has lots of good competition in Europe (Django, JPK, etc) and does pretty OK. But could an American company replicate their success building that kind of boat here? I don't know. Thoughts?
     


  15. TomY

    TomY Alden Forum Moderator

    Joined Jun 22, 2004
    788 posts, 183 likes
    Alden 38' Challenger yawl
    US Rockport Harbor
    When Roger Martin's Presto 30 came out nearly 10 years ago, I thought it would catch fire. Fun, fast, simple, could plane as well as take to a beach(with the board up).
    [​IMG]
    And at 100K for a new 30'er, it wasn't as ridiculous as many new boats.

    There was a lot of media interest at the start and I knew of one here in our neighborhood and followed it's adventures. In fact somebody in the area took up the tooling to build them.
    http://www.rodgermartindesign.com/portfolio/presto-30/

    Well that was then,... I haven't heard much and I can't find one for sale. Sort of fizzled as a production boat. The market didn't materialize here for the boat.
     


  16. jeepbluetj

    jeepbluetj

    Joined Jan 18, 2016
    324 posts, 78 likes
    Catalina 30
    US SoCal Dana Point
    Must be winter.... :)

    Stu is correct, the C36mkI and the C36mkII are the same hull shape. Updated, so they could sell the new ones, cause newer is cooler. Which is kinda Jackdaw's point - you gotta build what the customers want. And what can't be found in the existing marketplace (like the billion or so tubby Catalina 30's for sale right now. I can say that 'cause I've got a tubby C-30. And tubby is what made it such a good boat at the time.)

    Yea, I'd sail a Pogo.

    Now if I had a bigaz factory making mediocre selling cruising boats, I'd immediately start making 44' condomorans. 'Cause the market for that just got real hot. Betcha a 'Gemini 4400' that looks/feels like a Lagoon/Fountaine Pajot would have a very good market for the next few years. (Mediocre selling, not necessarily mediocre boats)

    Somewhere upthread it was mentioned the fitout of current interiors. I went to a boat show a few weeks ago. Very few sailboats. Only one under 35'. They all had interiors that could best be described with words like koppang, malm, kullen, askvoll, or whatever other Ikea name you wanna pick. Several brand new boats had 'furniture' that was already delaminating.
     


  17. Stu Jackson

    Stu Jackson

    Joined Feb 26, 2004
    19,435 posts, 349 likes
    Catalina 34
    US Maple Bay, BC, Canada
    That is disappointing at best. Another item "overlooked" on many of the newer boats are handholds. I can go from my cockpit to my V berth with a secure handhold (teak loops) every step of the way. This has been noted both here and on cruisersforum many times. Truly frightening. You don't have to be on an ocean to get knocked around down below.
     


  18. Jackdaw

    Jackdaw

    Joined Nov 8, 2010
    7,111 posts, 1,105 likes
    Beneteau First 36.7 & 260
    US Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
    Indeed. This in particular becomes a problem on the new generation of very beamy boats. The designers (who DO think about this) have adopted a high-low model, with grabs built into fiddles and edges low, as well as traditional grabs along the roofline. Also, wide areas are broken up with hip-high furniture and fixtures designed for bracing.
     


    Rick D likes this.
  19. dlochner

    dlochner

    Joined Jan 11, 2014
    1,075 posts, 240 likes
    Sabre 362
    US Fair Haven, NY
    This boat really captures the discussion on this thread. Here we have boat with a lot of nice features, easy to sail rig, shoal draft, fast, and economical. But apparently it is not financially successful.

    As the discussion in this thread suggests, aesthetics remain an important part of the American market. I think that most of us would agree that the Presto! is not ugly, but I think few of us would say she is beautiful. Compare the Presto!'s appearance to Louisa (https://forums.sailboatowners.com/index.php?threads/louisa-what-era-is-she-from.187909/#post-1405949). The comments here suggest that many of us would rather sail an attractive slower boat over a faster less attractive boat.

    Then again, beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
     


  20. Tally Ho

    Tally Ho

    Joined Jan 7, 2011
    798 posts, 75 likes
    Oday 322
    US East Chicago, IN
    MacGregor sold a fair number of 26X and 26M boats (5,000 X's or so). It was somewhat "revolutionary" with water ballast, centerboard or dagger board depending on model, dual rudders, rotating mast, 20 + mph planing speed with a 50hp auxiliary.

    Do these qualify as "Cool, fast boats" ?

    Greg
     


    jviss likes this.

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