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News flash: cool fast boats sell.

Discussion in 'Ask All Sailors' started by Jackdaw, Oct 1, 2017. Add this thread to a FAQ

  1. dlochner

    dlochner

    Joined Jan 11, 2014
    1,075 posts, 240 likes
    Sabre 362
    US Fair Haven, NY
    As a serial Sabre owner (a Sabre 30 MK 1 and a Sabre 362) I resemble this remark!

    At least Sabre and its nearest competitor Tartan showed that a nicely finished boat could still be competitive and sail well. On Lake Ontario, the PHRF rating for a Sabre 362 is about the same as a J30 and it weighs about twice as much as the J30. My goal isn't to race the boat, it is to cruise out the St. Lawrence and down the East Coast to the Bahamas. For my money, I get the sailing performance of a J30 with considerably more room and comfort.

    Compared to a J35, my S362 is much slower (PHRF ~ 140 vs ~72), but I can stand up in my 362 and the interior is considerably more comfortable.

    To each his own. For the money I"ve spent on my 362, I could have purchased a newer Catalina or Beneteau of about the same size, however, the Sabre is much more to my liking. I'm not sure that Medicare would cover medical expenses incurred while sailing a hot cruising boat like a Pogo.
     


    jviss likes this.
  2. John Tubb

    John Tubb

    Joined Feb 14, 2017
    381 posts, 60 likes
    O'Day 25
    US Huntsville, AL Guntersville, AL
    I kind of felt what you are saying Jack when we started looking at getting into boating. For a few years my wife and I have enjoyed boat shows and thinking what would be fun and family oriented. Although I did get to sail in New England years ago, I felt I should be 'safe' and look at power boats. As such I really wasn't interested in buying someone's problem. My 'budget' had us considering new trailer boats in the mid 20s to mid 30s and possible family boats. But the back of my heart I really wanted to look at sail boats since we have talked for years of 'retiring' and sailing the Caribbean. I looked at new and was shocked at the price. As a point of record I prefer something new and then keep it so I know the issues. But the 'new boats I looked at for what I thought I wanted (Hunter, Catalina, Precision) seemed pricey for new when a pretty good used market gave the same performance.
     


  3. Scott T-Bird

    Scott T-Bird

    Joined Oct 26, 2008
    2,940 posts, 203 likes
    Starwind 27
    US Allamuchy Barnegat, NJ
    It is a fair point and seemed to set a few of us off. Not me, I don't mind the intended jab done in humor. I often tell Sue that I'm going to see my "wide-a$$ mistress".

    Not to pick on jviss' sensitivity (I think I detected some :)), he makes a perfect example of what this thread is all about. His recent purchase of a used Tartan 3800 didn't benefit any boat builder. I'm sure he spent a substantial amount to buy used because he found what he wanted without needing to buy new. He didn't go to Tartan and say "hey, what are you making these days that really captures my attention?" He evidently surmised that the new boats didn't offer anything new that would interest him. The only way that his purchase would help to support the boat-building industry would be if the Seller of his boat was buying a new boat and needed to sell the used boat to make it happen. I wonder how that actually played out?

    I'll come right out and say it. A little controversy and confrontation shouldn't really hurt anyone. Heck, a little jab here and there keeps me coming back to SBO forums for the stimulation! If everything was all nice and polite ALL the time, wouldn't it get a little boring? Don't ALL families have conflicts and squabbles? I agree with Dave, there are plenty of forums that are over the top with abusive behavior. We are very congenial in this group and have a great diversity of opinion as well. It's the reason that it is the only sailing forum that I enter. I enter the MLB forum for baseball discussions and you have to wade thru the ridiculous comments. Our group is the best as far as I'm concerned.
     


    jviss, Fred Villiard and Roland5048 like this.
  4. Roland5048

    Roland5048

    Joined May 12, 2004
    755 posts, 160 likes
    Hunter Cherubini 30
    US New Port Richey
    Well said, Scott. :clap: As long as we keep it civil and don't resort to name-calling all is good.
     


    Last edited: Oct 11, 2017 at 4:26 PM
  5. justsomeguy

    justsomeguy

    Joined Feb 20, 2011
    5,559 posts, 495 likes
    MacGregor, Island Packet 35
    US Tucson, AZ/San Carlos, MX
    ...'cause he eats Kennel Ration...

    Thanks for the earworm. :rolleyes:
     


  6. AlastairLC

    AlastairLC

    Joined Jan 2, 2017
    93 posts, 23 likes
    O'Day 322
    US Scottsdale, AZ Lake Pleasant
    Same thing is happening in the golf world. Nobody has the time anymore (except us retirees).
     


  7. justsomeguy

    justsomeguy

    Joined Feb 20, 2011
    5,559 posts, 495 likes
    MacGregor, Island Packet 35
    US Tucson, AZ/San Carlos, MX
    Sign 'o the times.
     


  8. jviss

    jviss

    Joined Feb 5, 2004
    1,811 posts, 102 likes
    Tartan 3800
    US Westborough Westport, MA
    Bull. Example: Catalina 36, 2035 units from 1983 through 2007.
     


  9. jviss

    jviss

    Joined Feb 5, 2004
    1,811 posts, 102 likes
    Tartan 3800
    US Westborough Westport, MA
    Knock me over with a feather!
     


  10. jviss

    jviss

    Joined Feb 5, 2004
    1,811 posts, 102 likes
    Tartan 3800
    US Westborough Westport, MA
    Ikea comes to mind.
     


  11. jviss

    jviss

    Joined Feb 5, 2004
    1,811 posts, 102 likes
    Tartan 3800
    US Westborough Westport, MA
    Thanks, Scott. I think my Tartan purchase helps Tartan, because a vigorous used market with good prices supports the price and reputation of Tartan's new product. I couldn't afford a new one, but you know what, I they don't make a new one that satisfies my needs and wants as this one does. Honest. It was fortuitous as I had my heart set on a T3700, and my wife really wanted to look at this T3800. I did, to be a good husband, and fell in love with it! Yea, Jackdaw, as one T3800 owner told me, there are 1,600 pieces of teak in this boat! All oiled and beautiful, save the varnished teak drop-leaf table and polyurethaned teak and holly sole.
     


    Tally Ho likes this.
  12. dlochner

    dlochner

    Joined Jan 11, 2014
    1,075 posts, 240 likes
    Sabre 362
    US Fair Haven, NY
    Happy to oblige! :)

     


    justsomeguy likes this.
  13. Scott T-Bird

    Scott T-Bird

    Joined Oct 26, 2008
    2,940 posts, 203 likes
    Starwind 27
    US Allamuchy Barnegat, NJ
    Well, yes, there is validity in that. But your statements really just validate the premise in JD's original post. Boat builders (Tartan in this case) may gain some residual benefit from your support of their pricing structure. But they will never survive if they don't sell new boats. You just agreed ... "nothing new and interesting to see in their production line, better off buying a used boat in good condition." Are they shooting themselves in the foot by building high quality traditional boats when a dwindling market is buying their boats on the second-hand market? No, I wouldn't go that far. I don't think they should use the Bic model and sell disposable boats. (Bic was a case-study in my business school class - many, many years ago :( - to illustrate how an industry thrives by marketing disposable products, just to clarify the reference.)
    The sailboat production industry does have to innovate to stimulate market expansion, not rely on dwindling existing markets, or they fail, which is bad for us. I think that Jackdaw is pointing out that fast and efficient needs to be the name of the game for boat builders, because traditional is doomed to failure. Maybe he is right or wrong about his specific criteria, but the fact is that innovation is necessary for survival. Adapt or fail, as every business knows.
     


    Last edited: Oct 12, 2017 at 9:07 AM
    Rick D likes this.
  14. Jackdaw

    Jackdaw

    Joined Nov 8, 2010
    7,111 posts, 1,105 likes
    Beneteau First 36.7 & 260
    US Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
    The Catalina 36 was built until 1994, when it was replaced by with the Mark 2. Different deck, different interiors. Different boat.
     


  15. Hayden Watson

    Hayden Watson

    Joined Apr 5, 2009
    251 posts, 22 likes
    Catalina C30 tr/bs
    US Oak Harbor, WA
    Mk1, Mk2 same hull = same boat design. In Catalina fleets, the Mk1 and Mk2 boats sail as 1 design. The Mk2's are usually at a bit if a handicap because they tend to be heavier.
     


  16. Jackdaw

    Jackdaw

    Joined Nov 8, 2010
    7,111 posts, 1,105 likes
    Beneteau First 36.7 & 260
    US Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
    That’s an interesting tidbit but you’re missing the bigger point. Sales numbers from the booming 70s and 80s have no bearing on the market realities of today. In today’s world, any builder is estatic when they have a sales backlog on a model.

    Again, we’re trying to talk about how builders can build and sell boats TODAY, and not in 1982.
     


  17. jviss

    jviss

    Joined Feb 5, 2004
    1,811 posts, 102 likes
    Tartan 3800
    US Westborough Westport, MA
    No they are not different boats, they are virtually identical. I have a 1984, and have been on every other mark. Same hull, virtually identical interiors, minor changes to deck. Same boat.
     


  18. jviss

    jviss

    Joined Feb 5, 2004
    1,811 posts, 102 likes
    Tartan 3800
    US Westborough Westport, MA
    I don't agree with this. I think with that logic, one could argue that sailboats would go away ijn favor of powerboats. Having a sailboat will change your life. Going marginally faster, to a speed that is still not very fast in absolute terms, not so much.

    Think of the used vs. new car market.
     


  19. Jackdaw

    Jackdaw

    Joined Nov 8, 2010
    7,111 posts, 1,105 likes
    Beneteau First 36.7 & 260
    US Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
    Tell that to someone that owns a Mk2. The 2 has a much smoother, modern deck build, and an modern open transom. That's hard to miss when shopping. No one in their right mind would consider the the two identical, or say the Mk2 is not more modern. Which is exactly why they did it. After 10 years of Mark1s, there are trying to make sure you have a reason to buy a NEW one, and not a used one that looks exactly the same. Marketing 101.


    But again you're missing the bigger point.
     


    Last edited: Oct 12, 2017 at 9:21 AM
  20. jviss

    jviss

    Joined Feb 5, 2004
    1,811 posts, 102 likes
    Tartan 3800
    US Westborough Westport, MA
    So, you are saying I'm not in my right mind? The sugar scoop transom is nice, but it hardly makes it a different boat.

    If it was so different, Catalina would have given it a different name and started the serial numbers/hull numbers from 1. But they didn't, they call it a C36, and they numbered them consecutively, all the way from 1983 to 2007.

    So, Catalina doesn't consider it a different boat, but, hey, what do they know?

    But, there's apparently no arguing with you, if it's so important for you to be right, here you go, I'll give you this one.

    Correction: #2305, the last C36 made, was completed in November 2006 (not 2007, as I previously stated).
     



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