News flash: cool fast boats sell.

Sep 25, 2016
88
Oday 22 Lake Arthur
Okay, I posted my last post and stood up from the computer. I went downstairs to fix the things that the cat had done to the dining room table’s centerpiece in the previous hour, to pour myself a drink, and to let the dog out.

I was done with this conversation, but I stood on the front porch and watched the dog sniff around and thought about it… and no.

Jack, read this or not. Ignore list (whatev, sensitive snowflake much?) or not. Here’s the best answer to your post I can come up with. This is as on-topic as it gets.

News flash: cool fast boats sell.
Along with a line of pure race boats and 4 other ‘cruisers’ between 30 and 50 feet, little Structures Pogo in France cranks out a new Pogo 36 every 3 three weeks. The backlog for the €250k boat is over 3 years. J/boats is also doing well enough. Why can’t other American builders figure out this code? The world has enough tubby cruisers that can’t get out of their own way. Performance sells.


That’s where we started.

While the original post does contain a single interrogatory, it is not a question. It’s not the start of a rational discussion. It’s a proclamation handed down to us little people from upon high.

The message, if there is one, isn’t really about boats at all. The underlying message is, “I, Jackdaw, am smarter than you and also the entire US boatbuilding industry other than J/boats.”

There is also a second message there, which is “I don’t like old ‘tubby cruisers,’ so they suck and you (readers) suck for liking them.”

The third message is slightly more subtle, and implicit, due to the statement being posted as a discussion topic on a public forum and that is: “Agree with me and validate me, or I dare you to refute me.”

It’s that third message that has drawn this into a 12-page thread. And what a thread it has been! We’ve been up and down economics and politics and the differences between the US and the EU and Motel 6 interior design and Island Packet’s website being down (it’s up again, btw) and economics again and kayaks and the minimum wage (econ again) and that’s only the first 5 pages and I have to rest my typing fingers for a bit.

But we’ve never really addressed the original message, which is how much smarter Jackdaw is than the rest of us, and how much more knowledgeable about boats he is.

Jack, I submit that you are possibly smarter than me and almost certainly more knowledgeable about sailing than I am.

I think the Dude said it best: “You’re not wrong, Walter.” There’s a second half to that quote, but I won’t repeat it here.

Your post does not ask a question beyond “Why can’t other American builders figure out this code?” which is a rhetorical question; it does not seek an answer because the answer is implied: “Because the industry is not as smart as me (Jackdaw).”

However, many participants in this thread have attempted to answer a question not actually posed by your declaration: “What can fix the American sailboat building industry?” Some, including myself prior to fully analyzing the original post--have also attempted to answer the broader question of “How can we make sailing more interesting and accessible to the average American?”

I choose to offer a suggestion in answer to that last, unposed but several times previously answered question: We need to be welcoming of new people to the sport.

I’m going to repeat that and even bold it:
We need to be welcoming of new people to the sport.

We need to welcome them regardless of the kind of boat they own.
We need to welcome them regardless of their level of experience.
We need to welcome them regardless of their financial means.

Jackdaw, you are not welcoming. In another thread you called me and the OP of that thread newbies, belittled us, and ran that OP out of the forum.

In this thread you posted a challenge (the original post) and then followed up by threatening (I do not know if you followed through or not and I don’t really care) to ignore list someone (me) who was ready to call you on it, even in a humorous, gentle way.

Jackdaw, the sort of snooty attitude you have displayed here and in that other thread, is the reason people would rather kayak than learn to sail: Who wants a snooty know-it-all over their shoulder telling them what they are doing wrong all the time?

I sure don’t.

However, Jackdaw, I will not allow you and others like you to chase me away from this sport. I am going to continue to sail my old bathtub. I am going to continue to fix what I can of it, here and there, as time and money permits. I’m going to sail around and enjoy the summer afternoons.

I hope my blown out sail and wearing paint piss you off anytime you have to deign to share a harbor with them.
 
Sep 20, 2014
1,320
Rob Legg RL24 Chain O'Lakes
Unless the new boat has something to offer, why spend the money. Generally speaking, the only thing a new boat has to offer is speed. Even at that, it is not substantially faster than older boats. The speed may double, but it's still slow.
I think my kids are a pretty good gauge of the market desires. When I owned a slow small boat, they hated sailing. I bought a much faster boat, and they loved it. Interestingly, this year's vacation, I had a bluetooth speaker with us in the boat. Even though we listened to a lot of "dad" music, I was told by my youngest that she did not ever want to go sailing again without tunes. It changed the whole experience. Added new life and energy. Kids were up dancing on the bow having a good time. There just has to be energy flowing, or its not happening. I'm sure as they get older, they will slow down some.
One of the biggest problems I see is the lack of good sailing lakes. Most of the lakes near by are puddles. That is fine for a power boat that is just going to go around the ski circle. But sailing on these puddles is too much of a process.
Lastly, I think the market really needs to go to multi-hulls along the lines of what Ian Farrier is building. 50K price point for a very fast, flat sailing, forgiving boat. It makes no sense to spend $35K on a stupid monohull, when you can spend $50K and get a multi-hull. Maybe up to a $75-80K for a 30 foot trailerable cat - and yes I have an idea how to build one.
 
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Aug 3, 2012
2,542
Performance Cruising Telstar 28 302 Watkins Glen
Lastly, I think the market really needs to go to multi-hulls along the lines of what Ian Farrier is building. 50K price point for a very fast, flat sailing, forgiving boat. It makes no sense to spend $35K on a stupid monohull, when you can spend $50K and get a multi-hull. Maybe up to a $75-80K for a 30 foot trailerable cat - and yes I have an idea how to build one.
I and the Admiral agree with you. She jokes that women who say they don’t mind heeling are lying! Haha! I doubt it is that extreme.
The molds for the Telstar 28 are unused and probably available. She has said we should get them! Eeeek.
The qualities you outline are just what the Telstar does. The Farrier is faster by a long shot, so is the Dragonfly. However, those boats are still more expensive. We love that the Telstar folds and can stay in the water like the Dragonfly but at 1/4 the price.
The Telstar had an ok start, but the 2008 economic recession killed it. My wife says they should market to women for its stability with speed as a side note.
I would never have thought about a I had not been forced by my wife to find a more stable boat. Now I am glad I found it. It is a fun boat.
I would love to see some 30-32 ft, foldable, trailerable, lightweight, speedy cats or trimarans.
 
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Sep 20, 2014
1,320
Rob Legg RL24 Chain O'Lakes
The Telstar and the newest Farrier are similarly priced. Of course the Farrier is smaller, so maybe not in price per foot. Yes, the Dragonfly is too expensive. I think Ian is right with his boat in a box concept, where a DIYer can outfit the boat themselves and save a few bucks. His biggest limitation is going to be distribution in the US. People will only buy what they can put their hands on.
Something else to point out is the RV market. It massively shrunk a few years back due to economics. What is interesting is the trailer market is still pretty strong. Young buyers are still willing to spend in the $30K or more. Smaller market in the $60K region. There was a huge retiree market that imploded, as the stock market took a dump. That market is starting to come back, but I don't see those as potential boat owners. Yes, there are a few retirees that will buy huge expensive cruisers, but not much, as there are very few in that age category who are going to pick up sailing. The only active market will be in the lower end, as long as there is motivation to buy something simple and not currently available in the used market.

Current US manufacturers are stupid to try to compete against the used market, but yet that is what they insist on doing. Build a cheap boat that is currently different than what is available in the used market.
 
Nov 8, 2010
11,386
Beneteau First 36.7 & 260 Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
Its very true that the multi-hull offers many of the same advantage of a light fast cruiser, and some would say in a more effective package. New designs are working on the berthing and transport beam issues. I like the Telstar 28 because the tri-hull solves the 'living in the amas' issue with small cats, where all the livable spaces is in the outer hulls. Once you start living between the hulls on a cat, it gets heavy quick.
 
Aug 2, 2010
502
J-Boat J/88 Cobourg
Love and Luck, in my opinion you are out of line with your response. The original post sparked lots of discussion, as you noted, and lots of questions. I did not see the criticism of anyone other than perhaps the current crop of boat builders who are languishing or failing.
You and I can continue to sail whatever we want to sail/afford and it is nobody's business. Jackdaw did not criticise anyone's choice that I can see. It caused me to really examine what I would want going forward and to delve into the minds of those buying fast sexy boats today with an expected outcome of understanding the consumer of today. As I quoted, the consumer is never irrational.
Dan
Ps. The whole thing reminds me of the furling-traditional main discussion. I have made a choice for my current boat and I don't regret it one bit. As I read all the reasons people have made the choices they have made I learn more...and I am not sure how I would jump if I were buying another boat tomorrow.
 
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Aug 3, 2012
2,542
Performance Cruising Telstar 28 302 Watkins Glen
I do not feel that Jack’s post was perjorative to cruiser owners. Sure he called them slow and tubby. Cruising boats are what they are. They should not deny that. Comfort and amenities cost speed. That is ok. It is just not Jack’s way.
Jack’s post was, to me, a lament. To me, it was a Pro-American, let’s get our minds to work, we can do this, kick in the butt! That is ok with me.
I am in South Florida, my home stomping grounds, right now, and there is no shortage of fishing and speed boats on the lots, being trailered around, and out in the water on the ICW. There are plenty of big, fast, luxury yachts for sale, and from the numbers of them docked behind the houses in Lighthouse Point, they are selling.
Sailing will always be a niche in boating. Inside sailing, cruising will always be the mainstream. Racing sailboats will always be a niche. However, racing serves as a proving ground for technology that spreads to the other types of sailing. Sail shape, hull design, keel design, winch design, steering, standing rig design, etc. are all influenced by racing.
It will only be a matter of time before more of these go-fast designs spread to cruising. As they do, our next Used boats will be faster and lighter.
When I was a kid, multihulls were limited to Hobie Cats and custm built trimarans. We laughed that no trimaran could sail the ocean. The hulls would work against each other and break up. Now, multihulls are everywhere. Trimarans of 30 and 35 ft by Quorning are fast, light, and roomy, trailerable, and foldable for a normal slip.
These and fast cruising monohulls are the next market.
I love the shape of a classic monohull. I disliked my Telstar when I first saw it. It grew on me. Once I sailed it, I fell in love!
Anyone who wants is welcome to stop by Seneca and take ride.
 
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Apr 5, 2009
2,774
Catalina '88 C30 tr/bs Oak Harbor, WA
What I find most humorous about this thread is Jackdaw's statement "Structures Pogo in France cranks out a new Pogo 36 every 3 three weeks”. That comes to a bit more than 17 boats per year at the bottom of their range. I just looked on the Catalina Wiki and found the following
Model # years # produced #/year
22Mk1 16 13000 812/yr
30 36 5820 161/yr
34 22 1800 81/yr
36 24 2305 96/yr
42 22 1000 45/yr
And Jackdaw is bragging about 17??? Now that thar is funny!
 
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Nov 8, 2010
11,386
Beneteau First 36.7 & 260 Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
@danstanford and @agprice22 , thanks, you neatly summed up what I wanted this thread to be about.

It was born out of a thought about what current builders could do to help save their businesses. They are in the sole business of selling new boats, and that business is diminishing. So what to do?

Now topics of this ilk will always tend to slightly devolve into American vs European earning power, the changing face of american sailors, and the changes in spending power of the American middle-class. While valid topics, I tried to keep the thread clear of that, that's not what it was about. And based on the number of pages and replies, its an discussion worth having.

Over the course of 7000+ posts, most people here on SBO by know know me, and I've sailed with quite a few of you. If my 'tone' in this has offended anyone, I'm sorry. Not my intent. But one thing that I will not apologize for is the notion that builder have to sell new boats. And that means people that can afford them. I know that's not everybody. That is not elitist. Now while apparently at least one thin-skinned new-to-SBO person finds that offensive, its not. It's simply how the world works.

Hunter, Catalina, Beneteau, J/boats, Pogo, etc all need to sell new boats. My basic premise was and is; if you make them too much like your old boats, people will just by old (used) boats. So how to make them different???
 
Nov 8, 2010
11,386
Beneteau First 36.7 & 260 Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
I just looked on the Catalina Wiki and found the following
Model # years # produced #/year
22Mk1 16 13000 812/yr
30 36 5820 161/yr
34 22 1800 81/yr
36 24 2305 96/yr
42 22 1000 45/yr
And Jackdaw is bragging about 17??? Now that thar is funny!
You need to go look at when that happened. All of that happened 40-20 years ago, back in the 'golden age' of American sailboat building, where if it floated it sold. NONE of those boats have been built in 30 years. Not exactly relevant, don't you think?? Now if you want to pick a fight, try and find some current data, and don't talk about ancient boats. None of those 'sales' will show up on Catalina's bottom line for 2017. Past glory doesn't spend.
 
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Apr 5, 2009
2,774
Catalina '88 C30 tr/bs Oak Harbor, WA
You need to go look at when that happened. All of that happened 40-20 years ago, back in the 'golden age' of American sailboat building, where if it floated it sold. NONE of those boats have been built in 30 years. Not exactly relevant, don't you think?? Now if you want to pick a fight, try and find some current data, and don't talk about ancient boats. None of those 'sales' will show up on Catalina's bottom line for 2017. Past glory doesn't spend.
Ok, I called Catalina and the C355 went into production in 2011 and last week they completed hull # 135 so that is 23/yr give or take. I didn't check on any of the other models.
 
Nov 8, 2010
11,386
Beneteau First 36.7 & 260 Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
Ok, I called Catalina and the C355 went into production in 2011 and last week they completed hull # 135 so that is 23/yr give or take. I didn't check on any of the other models.
That boat is not on your 'hero' list.
 
Apr 5, 2009
2,774
Catalina '88 C30 tr/bs Oak Harbor, WA
Nope but it is one of the 6 current models over 26'. I just picked one a random to ask about. I have no idea if it is a top seller or not.
 
Feb 26, 2004
22,760
Catalina 34 224 Maple Bay, BC, Canada
NONE of those boats have been built in 30 years. Not exactly relevant, don't you think?? Now if you want to pick a fight, try and find some current data, and don't talk about ancient boats. None of those 'sales' will show up on Catalina's bottom line for 2017. Past glory doesn't spend.
The 34 and 36 models stopped production in around 2007-2009. That's not 30 years ago.
The 22 is still being made in a modestly different configuration.
The 30 "morphed" into the 309.
The 310 is based on the 30 hull with a substantially different interior designed for couples.

Catalina introduced their "5" series after, IMHO mistakenly trying a bunch of different mid-30s sized boats, like the three or four iterations of the 38 (NOT the old S&S C38 from ages - yes 30! - ago. :)

The 315 is the new 30.
The 355 is the new 34. (FYI, 800 of the original C34 boats were sold in the first three years of production!!!)
The 375 is the new 36.

Layouts are similar, almost identical with improved systems, larger heads, some with separate showers compared to the earlier versions.

Point being, hardly 30 years ago. They are selling well, but, of course, nothing like the "old days" in the late 70s and 80s.

I doubt we'll ever see those days again, for many of the reasons discussed in this very thread.

There are the "go fast" adherents, "Fast Is Fun!", said Bill Lee. Others of us are fond of our "regular" boats. I sailed our regular boat from San Francisco to Vancouver Island last year. She got me here and I've enjoyed sailing this area for the first time this summer. I noted many regattas being run here on both the go fast as well as the regular boats.

I also raced one-design for many years on our C34. Still exciting, and maybe beats PHRF racing with so many different boats.

Your boat, your choice. :)
 
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Nov 6, 2006
9,885
Hunter 34 Mandeville Louisiana
Very similar discussions happened concerning automobiles back in the 70's-80's.. Changing demographics and consumer tastes.. The American companies all had troubles until they started building things that folks wanted.. There are some very good cars being built here in the USA now.
 
Jan 11, 2014
11,323
Sabre 362 113 Fair Haven, NY
Those of us of a certain age can certainly remember a famous dog food advertising campaign. The jingle went:
"My dog is better than your dog, my dog's better than yours."

Over the very long course of this discussion there has been more than one post that was reminiscent of that jingle. And the comparison wasn't based on something simple like what dog food your dog ate, it sometimes touched closer to home. Most of the time it has been a civil discussion, but occasionally pejorative language was used. To our credit we have not fallen into the gutter like some other forums regularly do. Referring to a boat as a slow tubby cruiser is not nearly as offensive as referring to it as a 3 knot sh*t box as they are commonly referred to on SA. None the less, most of us do not want to hear our pride and joys referred to as tubby.

Language is important and how we use it conveys a lot. No father wants to hear his daughter described as homely, plain, or ugly, even if those might be accurate descriptors. Likewise, no father should want to hear his daughter described as hot, sexy, or foxy even if the daughter is very attractive.

A friend named his boat Uxorial, it means having wife like qualities. For many of us, our boats are wife like or daughter like. Hearing them described in derisive language is off putting and gets in the way of a more fruitful discussion. All of us, racers, cruisers, newbies, and old salts have the boat that best fits our interests, resources, and aesthetics. Some have more universal appeal than others, but that doesn't mean one is better than another. Unless of course you're feeding it Ken-L-Ration. And if so you have other issues to address.
 
Nov 8, 2010
11,386
Beneteau First 36.7 & 260 Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
Referring to a boat as a slow tubby cruiser is not nearly as offensive as referring to it as a 3 knot sh*t box as they are commonly referred to on SA. None the less, most of us do not want to hear our pride and joys referred to as tubby.
Fair enough. That might have been a step to far!
 
Jan 12, 2016
268
Hunter 410 Ladysmith, BC
I'd love to get a sail on the Pogo first hand. Looks like an amazing machine and we should all be happy that sailing as a sport continues to sell new boats, and a continues to advance with technology.

It is really nice to see advancements on a boat under 40', as I'm getting sick of seeing all the growth happening in new boats in the 50'+ range. Handling a boat that size in close quarters as a weekender is cumbersome. Finding a slip for a boat that size in either British Columbia or Ontario where I've owned boats is near mission impossible. Sailing is moving further away from being a sport accessible to the masses when builders only focus on the top tier customer with a million in the bank. Thank you Pogo and the Bene Figaro for bringing performance to the masses.

Most the new boats out there I like the cockpits, and dislike the interiors with the exception of the Danish/Swedish yards. I'm a sucker for hand rubbed teak finishes, the ALPI stuff in most new boats just looks too IKEA like to me and not 'yachty' enough. The new Bene's and Jeauneau's are especially unappealing inside, but I like the rigs, cockpit, and hull design. However at this stage in my life I can't afford to part with 300-500k for a new boat so who am I to judge what they should build. In economics, if it sells you have the right product.

The fact that Hunter and Catalina sales are way down compared to Beneteau, and apparently Pogo, they will either adapt or perish. Hopefully they won't become another Blackberry, AMC, or Sears. Not to mention Bayfield, CS, Pearson, the original C&C , Grampion, Whitby, Columbia, to name a few.
 
Nov 8, 2010
11,386
Beneteau First 36.7 & 260 Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
Most the new boats out there I like the cockpits, and dislike the interiors with the exception of the Danish/Swedish yards. I'm a sucker for hand rubbed teak finishes, the ALPI stuff in most new boats just looks too IKEA like to me and not 'yachty' enough. The new Bene's and Jeauneau's are especially unappealing inside, but I like the rigs, cockpit, and hull design. .
This brings up a GREAT point about interior woodwork. I agree that nothing looks as good as a hand-built wooden interior in a boat. And the likes of Sabre and Hinckley had this down to an art form. But there are down-sides:

1) Its costly
2) Its heavy

Nothing adds to the cost of a boat like turning a team of wood craftsmen loose on the inside of a hull with tools and a pile of wood. But thats what builders did, and some still do. The hours add up quick! New build techniques use pre-formed and pre-cut pieces that install into slots and tabs, and are placed rapidly by semi-skilled teams. Brings the build cost down.

This also allows the use (when desired) of laminated pieces; thin wood laminates over a ridged foam/epoxy middle. This can save builder hundreds in pound of weight. For instance, on the Elan 350 RC edition, the use of laminated furniture and bulkheads saves 7% of the boats weight vs the non-RC version! On boats like the Pogo, everything is laminated like that.