News flash: cool fast boats sell.

[Jackdaw]

So, I was wondering, has anyone converted a cruiser's masthead rig to fractional, in the name of performance?

While early in the game there were some boats (J/30 etc) that were designed to be built as either config, this design consideration is normally built deep into the boat's DNA, and its construction. Fore/aft mast placement, chainplate locations, spreader count, angle, and length, boom length and traveler position all factor and with the exception of the mast placement would change in a proper conversion..

So, it CAN be done, but its not a simple process.

 

[Jackdaw]

While many of us are lusting after boats like the Pogo 36 and its ilk, there is a down side to sailboats that go this fast. Here's a couple of sobering articles from the Chicago Mac race.

When safety-at-sea rules should be ignored to save an overboard sailor
MOB Miracle

You need to be careful when making statements like that; the Farr 400 is a totally different beast than a Pogo XX, it's a full-on raceboat designed for inshore use, and would be a handful offshore in a squall. Also, the simple fact is that an MOB when going downwind is a true life-and death situation on ANY boat, regardless of type.

 

[Crazy Dave Condon]

Jackdaw, concur with you in your last statement. Dave

 

[dlochner]

ou need to be careful when making statements like that; the Farr 400 is a totally different beast than a Pogo XX, it's a full-on raceboat designed for inshore use, and would be a handful offshore in a squall. Also, the simple fact is that an MOB when going downwind is a true life-and death situation on ANY boat, regardless of type.

The comment wasn't directed at one boat type or another. It was directed towards the effect of speed on MOB recovery. At 6 knots a boat moves about 10 per second, at 12 knots, that's 20 feet. Traveling at 12 knots in 15 seconds the MOB is a football field away. In 2.5 minutes the MOB is a half mile away.

The thrill of planing 36 foot boat at 12 knots is balanced by the increased risk to anyone prematurely departing the boat at that speed. Not to mention the impact of hitting the water at 12 knots.

 

[Jackdaw]

The comment wasn't directed at one boat type or another. It was directed towards the effect of speed on MOB recovery. At 6 knots a boat moves about 10 per second, at 12 knots, that's 20 feet. Traveling at 12 knots in 15 seconds the MOB is a football field away. In 2.5 minutes the MOB is a half mile away.

The thrill of planing 36 foot boat at 12 knots is balanced by the increased risk to anyone prematurely departing the boat at that speed. Not to mention the impact of hitting the water at 12 knots.

On that point we are in total accord. The separation gets big fast. On the Pogo we always had DSC/VHFs on our vests.

I don't characterize the added speed as a downside, no more than I would the extra speed of a faster car. Its just something to be taken into account and planned for.

The article was based on an MOB on a Farr 400. My point was that the situation is made much more difficult on boats with less stability, where you are fighting with keeping the boat upright as well as recovery.

 

[JRT]

Well I tried, I showed my wife the video and pictures and she just didn't see the excitement as it 'it isn't very fancy' even thought I tried to pitch it's 3 year waiting list as a positive to save up! Oh well happy wife happy life and let's be honest I'll be happy on anything newer then the decade I was born in...

 

[Jackdaw]

Well I tried, I showed my wife the video and pictures and she just didn't see the excitement as it 'it isn't very fancy' even thought I tried to pitch it's 3 year waiting list as a positive to save up! Oh well happy wife happy life and let's be honest I'll be happy on anything newer then the decade I was born in...

John,
For sure you found that magic word in all of this, and that's 'HAPPY'.

This thread has never been about 'happy', its been about what its going to take for current boat builders to survive. Clearly that answer will make some people happy, but not all, and it was could never be intended to. Depending on a myriad of personal circumstances, everyone will be different. And I'll wager your definition what what happy is might change over time, like it does for most of us as we grow into the sport. I hear you're already looking at a C30! Have fun!

 

[Scott T-Bird]

Lifestyle sells new sailboats. Where does sailing go to refresh the "lifestyle" image? Usually, it is the competitive element of a sport that stimulates innovation, but racing is usually a relatively limited segment of the sailboat market or any other lifestyle sport for that matter. People often are newly attracted to a 'racy-looking' lifestyle without really being interested in competition, or racing, itself. That's why photographs of spartan boats set up exclusively for racing, with all of the cleats, lines, fairleads, and bare fiberglass won't attract anybody from a marketing perspective. The buyer has to visualize the lifestyle in order to be interested. I can see where the image of a 'racy' boat, such as the Pogo models, that has the sophisticated comfort of a cruiser will do well. Sailing over 10 knots has to provide some separation between the new and the old that new boat buyers will want. But they don't want it for racing. The actual logistics of racing is far too complicated for most buyers to want to navigate. It's the stimulus of a fast, comfortable boat that appeals. It's the idea that you will be noticed when you go sailing by that appeals to many new boat buyers. It has to be a new kind of fun. It's what needs to happen to stimulate new boat production.

 

[danstanford]

While I fully agree with Scott on the elements necessary to stimulate lots of demand with today's consumer, are we really talking about a smaller segment of the market? Are we talking about only appealing to some of the potential consumers as long as it is a segment ready to buy? Hull shapes, sail tech, foils, and sheer speed increases cannot be upgraded on existing boats (except the sails I guess) so those ready to try and win have somewhere to spend their money. Golfers spend money hand over fist trying to buy more distance (and more game) dispensing with perfectly good clubs every day. Is this a similar slice of the market that Pogo has tapped into....those prepared to spend on something new and better?
Sadly, I think a lot of the folks just trying to look cool have already broken their piggy banks on cool clothes, homes, and cars.

 

[Jackdaw]

Lifestyle sells new sailboats. Where does sailing go to refresh the "lifestyle" image? Usually, it is the competitive element of a sport that stimulates innovation, but racing is usually a relatively limited segment of the sailboat market or any other lifestyle sport for that matter. People often are newly attracted to a 'racy-looking' lifestyle without really being interested in competition, or racing, itself. That's why photographs of spartan boats set up exclusively for racing, with all of the cleats, lines, fairleads, and bare fiberglass won't attract anybody from a marketing perspective. The buyer has to visualize the lifestyle in order to be interested. I can see where the image of a 'racy' boat, such as the Pogo models, that has the sophisticated comfort of a cruiser will do well. Sailing over 10 knots has to provide some separation between the new and the old that new boat buyers will want. But they don't want it for racing. The actual logistics of racing is far too complicated for most buyers to want to navigate. It's the stimulus of a fast, comfortable boat that appeals. It's the idea that you will be noticed when you go sailing by that appeals to many new boat buyers. It has to be a new kind of fun. It's what needs to happen to stimulate new boat production.

Maybe its because that make a racing line of boats, but the average Pogo 30/36/40/50 owner did not buy it to race, and does not even race it on a regular basis. They simply wanted a FAST cruising boat. And I can tell you, people notice the things. Everywhere we ever went in Hermes, people would stop us to talk. Once we were in a taverna in Milos, and mentioned that we sailed over that afternoon from Naxos. The guy next to us looked at his watch and said 'In WHAT'? When we told him half the place insisted we march back down to the quay an inspect the boat.

 

[Love and Luck]

Maybe its because that make a racing line of boats, but the average Pogo 30/36/40/50 owner did not buy it to race, and does not even race it on a regular basis. They simply wanted a FAST cruising boat. And I can tell you, people notice the things. Everywhere we ever went in Hermes, people would stop us to talk. Once we were in a taverna in Milos, and mentioned that we sailed over that afternoon from Naxos. The guy next to us looked at his watch and said 'In WHAT'? When we told him half the place insisted we march back down to the quay an inspect the boat.

So, it's like owning a Ferrari. A really expensive way to be noticed.

Got it.

 

[Love and Luck]

Jack:


Me:


/apologies to Dudley Moore

 

[Scott T-Bird]

Once we were in a taverna in Milos, and mentioned that we sailed over that afternoon from Naxos.

Sue very badly wants to go to Greece next spring! Me, too!

 

[jviss]

I like the tradition, 'nautical,' teak and brass (or stainless), classy, timeless appeal of a well fitted sailing yacht.

 

[Ed Caldwell]

Love and Luck, do you remember this ad? Yep, I owned the one on the left.

 

[Love and Luck]

Love and Luck, do you remember this ad? Yep, I owned the one on the left.
View attachment 141743

a Countach with a tow package. That would be interesting.

 

[Jackdaw]

So, it's like owning a Ferrari. A really expensive way to be noticed.

Got it.

@Love and Luck - Wow. That’s what you get out of this. You’re even less classy than I ever expected possible. Welcome to my permanent IGNORE list.

 

[Tally Ho]

Interesting thread and LOTS of different opinions.

My 2 cents:
I could own a new (fast and expensive) boat, but I prefer more "vintage" toys. For me, not so old that I can't use it, or so vintage that it is a "garage queen".

My O'Day 322 is almost 30 years old, cost me $22k, is fairly low maintenance, and is plenty of boat for me.

My 2000 BMW Z3M is a blast to drive, and since I did not spend too much on my boat, I can afford to keep her too.

And I still have the first wife I ever fell in love with (30+ years).

What can I say...I like vintage, classic stuff, and to each his own....

Someone else can buy a new Jaguar F-Type or Island Packet 379...as I like to say, my cost per knot (or MPH) is WAY more cost effective.



Greg

 

[Love and Luck]

Maybe its because that make a racing line of boats, but the average Pogo 30/36/40/50 owner did not buy it to race, and does not even race it on a regular basis. They simply wanted a FAST cruising boat. And I can tell you, people notice the things. Everywhere we ever went in Hermes, people would stop us to talk. Once we were in a taverna in Milos, and mentioned that we sailed over that afternoon from Naxos. The guy next to us looked at his watch and said 'In WHAT'? When we told him half the place insisted we march back down to the quay an inspect the boat.

I'm going to break this down:

1) "the average Pogo 30/36/40/50 owner did not buy it to race, and does not even race it"
2) "I can tell you, people notice the things."

That's the sales pitch.

 

[agprice22]

Pogo’s more spartan looking interiors appeal to me. I do not need to be waxing and varnishing. I removed most of the wood from my boats where I easily could. I want to be sailing, FAST, in a boat I can also sleep and eat in. If I can get where I am going safely, comfortably at twice the speed, that is the boat for me. I have been on big Hunters and Beneteaus. I was not impressed. They were slow which meant you had to plan on pretty short hops if you intended to be on a mooring by night.
I was reading today that Sprindrift 2, the maxi trimaran, reels off 500+ miles in a 24 hour period. The woman interviewed said they could easily sail out of the way of storms. So I am hearing faster is safer too.
I understand that tastes change, and needs change too. I don’t have 3 kids in tow anymore. I only need 1 double berth for me and the Admiral. I can see the features of racier boats trickling down. They will improve many boats.
We got our trimaran in the water this Summer, and it has revealed some interesting possibilities in terms of going further in a day while sailing faster on a very stable platform. It is faster, more stable, is safer, so we are both winners. I imagine lots of Admirals would like the extra speed and safety too. Of course the Pogo still heels, so the Admiral would veto that deal! Speed, safety, and comfort are always a compromise. Especially speed and comfort.