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News flash: cool fast boats sell.

Discussion in 'Ask All Sailors' started by Jackdaw, Oct 1, 2017. Add this thread to a FAQ

  1. Jackdaw

    Jackdaw

    Joined Nov 8, 2010
    7,111 posts, 1,105 likes
    Beneteau First 36.7 & 260
    US Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
    Along with a line of pure race boats and 4 other ‘cruisers’ between 30 and 50 feet, little Structures Pogo in France cranks out a new Pogo 36 every 3 three weeks. The backlog for the €250k boat is over 3 years. J/boats is also doing well enough. Why can’t other American builders figure out this code? The world has enough tubby cruisers that can’t get out of their own way. Performance sells.


    CC46A0BD-44F8-458F-9F44-804D9CDC3B9C.jpeg
     


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  2. justsomeguy

    justsomeguy

    Joined Feb 20, 2011
    5,559 posts, 495 likes
    MacGregor, Island Packet 35
    US Tucson, AZ/San Carlos, MX
    Just spitballin' here. What does labor cost in the EU?

    How much of a lock does Jboats have on the racing circuit?
     


  3. Brian D

    Brian D Moderator

    Joined Feb 17, 2006
    3,447 posts, 309 likes
    Lancer 27PS
    US Oceanside, Ca MCB Camp Pendleton, Ca KF6BL
    "Tubby cruisers that can't get out of their own way"? - Jackdaw, 10/1/17 Sending insults to cruisers worldwide.
     


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  4. Jackdaw

    Jackdaw

    Joined Nov 8, 2010
    7,111 posts, 1,105 likes
    Beneteau First 36.7 & 260
    US Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
    Chill out. Not quite. Its an indictment on the builders, who design a boat exactly like the one it sold for 10 years, and then wonder why they sell TWO of the news ones.

    I notice you sail a 30+ year old boat. Why haven't YOU bought a new one?? Point made.
     


    Last edited: Oct 1, 2017
  5. Jackdaw

    Jackdaw

    Joined Nov 8, 2010
    7,111 posts, 1,105 likes
    Beneteau First 36.7 & 260
    US Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
    EU production costs? More, not less. J-boats race boats do well, but its their performance cruisers that really make the bulk of their business.
     


  6. Brian D

    Brian D Moderator

    Joined Feb 17, 2006
    3,447 posts, 309 likes
    Lancer 27PS
    US Oceanside, Ca MCB Camp Pendleton, Ca KF6BL
    Because I cannot afford a new (or used) boat anymore. Point returned.
     


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  7. capta

    capta

    Joined Jun 4, 2009
    1,918 posts, 292 likes
    Pearson 530
    XX Sailing in the Windward or Leeward Islands where ever we are anchored
    Wages in the EU are considerably higher than in the US, often with better hours and job security, but taxes are much higher. As their higher education is generally free, it's a much better system than the US, because a new graduate there doesn't start their working life with a massive debt and few prospects.
     


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  8. Jackdaw

    Jackdaw

    Joined Nov 8, 2010
    7,111 posts, 1,105 likes
    Beneteau First 36.7 & 260
    US Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
    To be more clear, the reason for this point is that it takes A LOT for someone to buy a new boat, in particular if they are pretty happy with their current one. What would make someone buy a new 35 foot cruiser if they like their current one? A new cabin layout? No. A traveler on an arch? No.

    One that planes off the wind at at easy 14 knots? Maybe.
     


  9. Head Sail

    Head Sail

    Joined Nov 13, 2013
    261 posts, 45 likes
    Catalina 34
    US Tacoma
    There's always a market for something newer and faster. In this case, size matters when you consider the capital expenditures required to capture a small share of a small share.
     


  10. BlowMeAway

    BlowMeAway

    Joined Nov 30, 2015
    689 posts, 245 likes
    Hunter 1978 H30 Cherubini
    US Maine, NY Cayuga Lake, Ithaca
    Yeah, there's a lot of us in that same boat...no pun intended. I'm afraid a new boat will never be in my future. I'm also doing everything in my power to prove that Sailing is not a rich man's activity/sport. My 39 year old ship, although heavy and tubby is one of the most exhilarating, yet stable, rides I could have imagined under decent breeze. I don't see us racing around three silly marks, when our five hour tours look like this. We work hard for an enjoyable excursion, no need for bragging rights, or faster, or newer, boat here.

    Best Regards...season ends soon up here!

    IMG_1482.JPG
     


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  11. Jackdaw

    Jackdaw

    Joined Nov 8, 2010
    7,111 posts, 1,105 likes
    Beneteau First 36.7 & 260
    US Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
    For sure. I totally get that. But if we accept that boat builders have to sell new boats to stay in business, someone has to buy them. The trick then is what will get people in the position to buy to do exactly that?
     


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  12. Jackdaw

    Jackdaw

    Joined Nov 8, 2010
    7,111 posts, 1,105 likes
    Beneteau First 36.7 & 260
    US Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
    True point. But I’m not sure it applies here. I think that Hunter would die for a new boat with a 2 year order book that they could crank out an example every three weeks.
     


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  13. shemandr

    shemandr

    Joined Jan 1, 2006
    2,863 posts, 205 likes
    Marblehead Skiff 14'
    US Greenport, NY Greenport, NY
    I wonder who the sport boat industry is selling to. I would guess it is the millennials who seem to me to be more attracted to excitement than relaxation. They seem to crave that "Hair on fire" experience. And in some cases have the income to buy it.
    Nevertheless around here there are many more J-22's, J-24's, J80's, J105's, J109's than there are J112's, J100's (We had one in our season finale yesterday). I think it does have to do with money. Maybe money and age.
    For example, yesterday I sailed on a Tartan 33, which I wouldn't call a tubby cruiser but it is a dated design. The owner owes no money on it, is over 70 years old, bought 1 new sail in the last five years and does reasonably well on Wednesday PM and club level racing, so he is not looking for a sport boat experience. Truthfully he also has trouble attracting crew for Wednesdays since his regular crew of years standing aged out.
    My point is that if the sport boat industry is selling a lot of boats, it's not to my friend Bill. Who are they selling to?
    Here is a scratch sheet for yesterday's race for prospective:
    http://www.regattanetwork.com/clubmgmt/regatta_uploads/14877/WB24ScratchSheet92617.pdf
     


  14. BlowMeAway

    BlowMeAway

    Joined Nov 30, 2015
    689 posts, 245 likes
    Hunter 1978 H30 Cherubini
    US Maine, NY Cayuga Lake, Ithaca
    Perhaps a series of hurricanes that induces replacement of all the second and third tier boats we typically charter in the VI's?
     


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  15. Head Sail

    Head Sail

    Joined Nov 13, 2013
    261 posts, 45 likes
    Catalina 34
    US Tacoma
    They would only like a 2 year order book if it was a profitable 2 years. At the 250k euro price, I would surmise the Pogos have a design and craftsmanship level production boats don't have the resources to produce. They would have to buy Pogo to get them.
     


  16. dlochner

    dlochner

    Joined Jan 11, 2014
    1,075 posts, 240 likes
    Sabre 362
    US Fair Haven, NY
    J/Boats and apparently Pogo sell to a very narrow market, those interested in competing at a high level with deep pockets. That's not most of us. Most of us sail older boats that were once competitive and are now affordable.

    The boating market is based on discretionary income, supporting a boat is low on the list when compared to food, housing, retirement savings, college savings, etc. Those who can afford a $300K boat are relatively few.

    It only took 25 years of inflation, depreciation, and a negligent owner for me to afford the boat I saw in the late 1990s that I fell in love with. And my income was well above the national median income.
     


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  17. Rick D

    Rick D

    Joined Jun 14, 2008
    6,295 posts, 108 likes
    Hunter Legend 40.5
    US Long Beach, Shoreline Marina, CA
    Well, the interview you cited on Beneteau was excellent. As I recall, he said the hot market was large monohulls over (50?) feet, multihulls and outboards. This weekend, I went to a SoCal boat show and talked to a couple of very knowledgeable, long term brokers with whom I shared that observation. They agreed. They also said the general sailboat market was weak but that euro-style power cruisers and big outboards are good. Incidentally, the interested traffic seemed to bear that out (new boats). Beneteau and it's sister Jeanneau were just about the only (new) sailboats represented. I think there was one Fast series.
    There is an article in the new Boat US magazine concerning (yet again) Millennials that makes for some interesting reading. For many years, I nagged Hunter to have a performance package. They tried it out on the 27. A demo here in SoCal did very will in local regattas. But there was no real market.
    I think a manufacturer has to figure out how to make money on limited runs, how to apply sponsorship, and promote performance boats to fleets and clubs. But...what do I know? http://www.boatus.com/magazine/2017/october/why-arent-millennials-buying-boats.asp
     


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  18. Michael Davis

    Michael Davis

    Joined Jan 5, 2017
    173 posts, 30 likes
    Beneteau First 38
    Ca Saturna Island B.C. Lyall Harbour Saturna Island
    Maybe it's just old age, set in my ways thinking but I wouldn't have one of those new boats even if I could afford it. Looks to me like someone beat them with a big "UGLY STICK". Give me a B-40 etc. any day of the week. I think new concept power boats are even worse.
     


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  19. agprice22

    agprice22

    Joined Aug 3, 2012
    1,699 posts, 204 likes
    Performance Cruising Telstar 28
    US Upstate New York Watkins Glen
    I think not everyone will compromise comfort and spend for speed. I would, but it still needs to be in my price range. I cannot afford a new boat, unless it is a jon-boat! But I can refurbish a better boat. Problem is that there are not a lot of high performance, older boats. Til these planing, 36ft monohulls age a little, I won’t be getting one.
    I probably know 2 or 3 people who could buy a new one. They aren’t sailors.
    I would buy a new Pogo in a second, as the comforts are not as important to me. It is a gas when you get your sailboat going 14 mph! It is less relaxing though... but then that is when we reef.
     


  20. Bill19233

    Bill19233

    Joined Jan 22, 2008
    232 posts, 88 likes
    Hunter 340
    US Baytown TX
    I agree completely, I would love to go on an afternoon 15 knot reach on a Pogo or J100 with a full competant crew and $50,000 worth of sails. But, I also like what I got, my $50,000 boat that me and my girlfriend can take out any Saturday for great sunset sail and enter the occasional casual race. And still look forward to retiring with the same lifestyle that includes lots of travel and spoiling grandkids.
    I hope they keep making and selling lots of cutting edge performance boats, I love looking at them, but I don’t think they’ll sell a lot of them to the people on this forum.
     


    Last edited: Oct 2, 2017

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