NEW SAILS?

Discussion in 'Ask A Hunter Owner' started by Stargazer3, Sep 3, 2018. Add this thread to a FAQ

  1. Sailavie1

    Sailavie1

    Joined Oct 31, 2012
    271 posts, 307 likes
    Hunter 2008 H25
    ca Lake Wabamun
    Gota love that B&R rig and large roach mains. My new fat-head main gave me around 8% more area than the stock sail. To maintain balance, a slightly lager jib was needed. Vertical jib battens got me part of the way there and the rest was accomplished by adding length to the "I" measurement (which I had room to do).
     


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  2. Jackdaw

    Jackdaw

    Joined Nov 8, 2010
    10,448 posts, 3,446 likes
    Beneteau First 36.7 & 260
    US Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
    I get all that. I was asking if you were sure if the lite skin material is filaments on a Mylar film.
     


  3. VanIslandGuy

    VanIslandGuy

    Joined Jan 12, 2016
    201 posts, 42 likes
    Hunter 410
    CA Ladysmith
    New sails are finally here and have been tested. Very, very pleased!



     


  4. VanIslandGuy

    VanIslandGuy

    Joined Jan 12, 2016
    201 posts, 42 likes
    Hunter 410
    CA Ladysmith
  5. DrJudyB

    DrJudyB

    Joined Jun 25, 2004
    469 posts, 377 likes
    Corsair F24 Mk1
    003 US San Francisco Bay, CA
    @Jackdaw,
    Lite Skin, a Trademark of Dimension Polyant, is made of randomly oriented polyester fibres lightly glued toether in a composite. LiteSkin does not include a polyester film (aka mylar). It contains neither polyester film (mylar), nor carbon fibres, nor aramid fibres (eg technora or twaron).

    LiteSkin (TM) is dark grey and "looks fast." and resists water absorbtion and abrasion. It's really good at resisting wrinkling and helps to reduce the shrinkage that laminate sails are prone to. (typical laminate sail cloth shrinks about 2% in the first year - did you know that?)

    Almost by definition, cruising sails don't have carbon fibers in them. Carbon is too brittle and breaks down in two or three or four seasons. It depends on how much you clog them and how many hours you put on them.

    Cruising laminates have been made with polyester mesh scrims between mylar films for the past 20+ years. Polyester scrims are long lasting, not brittle, and contribute greatly to improved shape stability compared to traditional cross-cut woven dacron sails.

    I would hazard a guess that UK's CX laminate is a private-label version of DP's DCX cruising laminate, which consists of a a polyester scrim/mesh laminated between mylar (polyester film). Both these laminates are for building radial cut, paneled sails. (not loadpath "string" sails), (But you'd have to ask UK directly, "what is the scrim mesh made of", because I couldn't fnd any references on their website so it's just an educated guess).

    DCX is a very nice cruising laminate and has been around for a long time. What's new is that you can get it in grey, instead of white. DCX is very comparable in performance and price to Contenders product CDX, which is also a cruising laminate with a polyester scrim.

    Adding LiteSkin or a grey taffeta on the outer side layer makes it look like a carbon sail, but doesn't boost the performance a whole lot.

    I would say that the cruising laminates with polyester scrims are comparable in terms of shape performance to tri-radial warp oriented woven polyester when new. Warp oriented radial dacrons will stretch a little faster than polyester scrim laminates, but they will outlast any laminate with mylar film by far.

    Grey color doesn't mean there's any carbon or aramid fibers in the sails. It's just a color that can command a small premium in price. Polyester/dacron fibers can be black or white, sandwiched between clear or grey colored mylar, with a shiney or a matt finish. Or black fibres could be carbon or black aramids, (such as twaron or technora). But you'll pay more for black and grey sails, because the manufacturers can get a premium price for them.

    Judy B
    Semi-retired Sailmaker
     


    Last edited: May 29, 2019
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  6. Jackdaw

    Jackdaw

    Joined Nov 8, 2010
    10,448 posts, 3,446 likes
    Beneteau First 36.7 & 260
    US Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
    Judy,
    Thanks for all the detailed info!

    Question, are you sure that Lite Skin is not a laminate? I thought I read that it was, and I’m holding a sample (GPL14 LS) that I got from my Sailmaker next to one of their string laminates. While it doesn’t show super-well in the picture, in person you can absolutely see (and feel!) the string structure between the skins. It’s almost as if the light skin were acting as a taffeta. I agree, I doubt there’s a Mylar layer. I can pull a part with my fingers.

    051F155A-8DAD-4BB0-81BB-C8D10EE4AB10.jpeg

    PS - totally agree about the shrinkage. Best example of that for the crew... have them wad up a piece of 8.5x11 paper. Then straight it out flat, and lay it over a fresh piece.......
     


    Last edited: May 29, 2019
  7. JRT

    JRT

    Joined Feb 14, 2017
    1,288 posts, 430 likes
    Catalina 310
    211 US Lake Guntersville, AL
    Cool, stuff. Is there any functional need for /gray/black cruising laminate sails or is it just a color to look cool? I looked at some cruising laminate sails but they were white, functionality was important, longevity also so would like to get 5-10 years out of them based on use.
     


  8. DrJudyB

    DrJudyB

    Joined Jun 25, 2004
    469 posts, 377 likes
    Corsair F24 Mk1
    003 US San Francisco Bay, CA
    It’s just a technical fine point.

    By definition, Laminates have layers. They are not homogenous. Liteskin is a homogenous composite that is used as the outer layer in a laminated sailcloth.

    In a strictly technical sense, LiteSkin is just the outer skin, by itself it does not have a layer of Mylar. LiteSkin is a direct substitute for taffeta skins. Liteskin provides superior UV protection compared to taffeta. (Taffeta is just a very light weigh version of woven polyester).

    Liteskin is used as one layer in a laminated sail. made to be glued to a sailed consisting of a sandwich of Mylar (tm)film- fiber mesh -film. If you take some Carbon Sport (tm) laminate, and then glue lite skin (tm) to it, you have Carbon Sport Lite skin. (Tm) .

    .
     


    Last edited: May 29, 2019
  9. Jackdaw

    Jackdaw

    Joined Nov 8, 2010
    10,448 posts, 3,446 likes
    Beneteau First 36.7 & 260
    US Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
    Now I see what you are saying; we're in accord. DP does not help, they call 'Lite Skin' a product but it really is a product feature... they do not sell just the 'skin', and it creates a new product when they use it.
     


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  10. DrJudyB

    DrJudyB

    Joined Jun 25, 2004
    469 posts, 377 likes
    Corsair F24 Mk1
    003 US San Francisco Bay, CA
    The short answer is this:
    Crusing laminates are usually constructed of polyester mesh between two layers of Mylar (tm ) with an outer skin of woven polyester (Dacron (tm). A white cruising laminate from a first tier manufacturer will give you 5 - 10 years of service.

    Sometimes black means that the sail is made from high performance aramid and carbon fibers. some times black means they added black dye to polyester.

    Most super low stretch aramids are very susceptible to uv damage, in their pure state. Most of them are gold colors. If you add a small dose of carbon dust to an aramid, it becomes more uv resistant. And it looks grey or black .
     


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  11. Jackdaw

    Jackdaw

    Joined Nov 8, 2010
    10,448 posts, 3,446 likes
    Beneteau First 36.7 & 260
    US Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
    One other comment beyond what Judy just said... sometimes 'cruising laminates are white because they are a traditional laminated (mylar/string/mylar) sandwich sail with thin dacron 'taffeta' layers glued to each side. The taffeta adds wear and flogging resistance with the cost of some added weight and cost. And also makes the sail white.
     


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  12. VanIslandGuy

    VanIslandGuy

    Joined Jan 12, 2016
    201 posts, 42 likes
    Hunter 410
    CA Ladysmith
    Our choice of this specific taffeta was not based on looks, but that locally it has been standing up the best against mildew, and moisture issues of all the cruising laminates. Especially for sailors that keep their sails on all year through the Canadian Wet Coast winter who want to be able to enjoy those quiet anchorages. We were looking for the toughest sail that still held it shape well for a long time, and weighed less than dacron. The tape drive sails were also considered but were just a little too much $$ for our budget.
     


  13. jwing

    jwing

    Joined Jun 5, 2014
    503 posts, 218 likes
    ODay Mariner
    US Guntersville
    BTW - almost all materials that are dyed dark colors will have more UV resistance than their light-hued counterparts. Fabrics, rope, shock cord, plastics, etc.
     


  14. Sailavie1

    Sailavie1

    Joined Oct 31, 2012
    271 posts, 307 likes
    Hunter 2008 H25
    ca Lake Wabamun
    That’s good to know. Kinda like skin pigmentation.:)
     


  15. DayDreamer41

    DayDreamer41

    Joined Oct 29, 2016
    1,346 posts, 674 likes
    Hunter 41 DS
    Un Port Huron
    UV resistance is an interesting topic of which this posting sent me off to do some research, I was thinking that the dark colors being more emissive would be effected by UV more than reflective surfaces but it seems that dark surfaces actually convert UV to heat which reduces the damaging effects of UV light when compared to materials of reflective (light colored) sail materials, who ah thunk.......
     


  16. SG

    SG

    Joined Feb 11, 2017
    1,447 posts, 274 likes
    J/Boat J/160
    US Annapolis
    I would suspect that the dark color ALSO helps because it keeps the UV a very thin surface effect rather than allowing additional degradation by penetration.