New O'Day 25 owner

Nov 8, 2010
11,386
Beneteau First 36.7 & 260 Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
Come on Jack! Whats with the straw man accusation? Just how many and what rig failures are you referring to? In 30 plus years I have not found one in our area. So long as the deck shows no moisture the chain plates should be fine. Please tell us what failures you refer to and what
design you feel is bullet proof. My chain plates are easily inspected.
Fair enough. Some more detail, and answers to your questions.

I did not intend that statement to be inflammatory, and so worded it as fact-based as possible. I said:
In my sailing lifetime I have seen more O'days suffer total rig failure due to catastrophic chainplate/bulkhead failure than all other makes combined.
That is 100% true. I have personally seen 4 suffer that type of failure, either watch it fall or saw it within hours of the event.
3 were O'days (2 25 and and 22) and one was a Catalina (25). Here is my friend Bill's 25.
Oday big.jpg

oday detail.jpg

That's his chainplate between his feet, which pulled straight up through the deck.

Two points to makes clear:
1) All of these failures were preventable by simple observation and maintenance.
2) I've seen 10x above-deck rig failures of all types.

I admit the sample size is small. And some it it could be simple coincidence. But two other facts are true:
1) The majority of boats I see are NOT O'days; not even close
2) The majority of boat I see or hear of doing full bulkhead replacements ARE O'days.

So I'm pretty sure there is a correlation. So I stand by my statement.

So whats wrong?
Well, first remember that people have been building recreational fiberglass sailboats for 70+ years. And many of those boats are still sailing, probably well beyond the year when the original designer and builder thought that would. And design and construction techniques get better over time.

And you have to remember the job of the chain-plates; to spread the load of the rig from the shrouds the the hull of the boat. That much is simple.

For a long time, the practice of many manufactures was to bolt the chainplates to internal wooden bulkheads. These bulkheads, tightly fit and tabbed into the hull, did an decent job at this task.

As long as they stayed structurally sound. The problem is that wood when subjected to water rots. Not in well maintained boats, but the list of structural wood rotting and causing grief in sailboats is well known. Bulkheads, compression posts, Compression foots, etc. It happens, either due to poor maintenance or because you cannot see it. Structural wood in sailboats is a bad idea.

So what's better?
The simple trick is to tie the rigging directly to the hull, or do so via fiberglass or stainless steel. There are three basic techniques, depending on the type of boat/rig.

For boats with inboard shrouds, you can design in structural feet that come inboard to meet the shrouds, like on @Maine Sails boat:
chhainplate1.jpg


Or you can link the shrouds directly to SS rods that tie to the fiberglass stringers, Like on @giulietta's boat:
chainplate2.jpg


In these days of boats with big overlapping genoas, those two systems were the norm. The shroud base had to be narrow to get a good sheeting able on the headsail. Now you see more boats with non-overlapping rigs, and the shroud base can be wider, which in addition to giving even better sheeting angles, is also better structurally as the compression loads are less. For boats with non-overlapping rigs, the solution is easier. Tie them directly to the hull, which is reinforced in that area.

chain1.jpg


Is the perfect? No, because given enough time and neglect, anything can fail. But on a boat, I like my chances better with SS than wood.

Most builders currently agree, and the use of chainplates bolted to wooden bulkhead is very rare now. Catalina, who used to do this, AFAICT has totally switched to SS rods attached to the hull. O'day, seemingly caught in a time as they have out of business, probably would have as well.
 
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Sep 23, 2009
1,475
O'Day 34-At Last Rock Hall, Md
Thanks for the pics.
Many boats of that time bolted the chainplate to the bulkhead. Why would o'day have more issues? The system is easily accessible for inspection and maintenance.
 
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Nov 8, 2010
11,386
Beneteau First 36.7 & 260 Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
Thanks for the pics.
Many boats of that time bolted the chainplate to the bulkhead. Why would o'day have more issues? The system is easily accessible for inspection and maintenance.
I guess I can't say for sure. But a clue might be my observation from above: 'The majority of boats I see or hear of doing full bulkhead replacements ARE O'days.' I'd be shocked if anyone disagreed with that. If a bulkhead that a chainplate is attached to is rotted, it will fail. Like we agreed, MANY builders used this chainplate method. So maybe for O'day:

1) Their method to waterproof the deck penetration was poor (I don't know)
2) Their method to waterproof the deck penetration required more maintenance
3) 3rd, 4th, and even 5th owners of the boat thought (or knew) less and less of this #2 task.
4) 3rd, 4th, and even 5th owners of the boat thought (or knew) less and less general maintenance

Some combination of the above mixed in with 40 years of existence will take its toll.
 

Ward H

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Nov 7, 2011
3,650
Catalina 30 Mk II Barnegat, NJ
@Jackdaw ,
Now that makes sense, thanks for clarifying. After reading your first paragraph, I missed this sentence.
I would really look over any new-to-you boat, and keep it on the watch list.
I think that applies to any critical system on a 30 to 40 year old boat.

@Oliver
Is your 25 a fixed keel? You mentioned looking out for the 6' draft so I was wondering. I thought they were kind of rare.

@John Tubb
Glad to hear it is coming together for you.
 

Oliver

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Mar 16, 2014
114
Oday 25 Bradenton Beach Florida
Yes, I have the 6 foot draft 600 lb fixed keel. I'm so happy I do. Oppose to the one that goes up and down, they leak. But I must say that living here in sand bar country keeps me on the toes.
 
Nov 8, 2010
11,386
Beneteau First 36.7 & 260 Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
@Jackdaw ,
Now that makes sense, thanks for clarifying. After reading your first paragraph, I missed this sentence.
I would really look over any new-to-you boat, and keep it on the watch list.
Indeed. If the bulkheads are in good shape, then you'll be fine. Just have to maintain them, but whats new there?
 
Oct 26, 2008
6,079
Catalina 320 Barnegat, NJ
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Wood bulkheads must have been fairly common at least into the 80's. Back when I didn't know what I should be worried about, my chainplate connector was loose on the deck and I had water intrusion that I didn't even realize for a while (even though it should have been obvious to me). Mine is a little unusual because it has a hunk of stainless steel on top of the deck that is thru bolted with four 3/8" bolts to the ss plate underneath, which is then thru-bolted to another ss plate on the other side of the plywood bulkhead.

Originally, the bulkhead was unfinished teak veneer and the water intrusion wasn't really noticable. After I varnished the interior wood, the water intrusion immediately showed black on the wood, that can be seen in the photo on the port side. Alarmed by this, I took action by sealing the upper surface, and replacing all bolts that went through the deck. It stopped the intrusion, but I was alarmed by the damages I found at the perimeter of the bulkhead, which weren't evident until I removed the trim. The edges were inadequately fastened to the fiberglass structure of the boat. As shown in the photos, I fortified the bulkhead with 3/4" hardwood blocks that sandwich the bulkhead between the wood blocks and fiberglass structure on the other side, like a vice. That port side bulkhead still gives me concern, and I expect that I will replace it sometime, if for no other reason than to remove the stigma that the stained wood clearly demonstrates. My balsa-cored deck is also soft underneath those windows, another project that nags me every time I step on the deck.
 
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JRT

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Feb 14, 2017
2,048
Catalina 310 211 Lake Guntersville, AL
Your chainplates look a lot more beefy then O'Day.
 
Nov 9, 2012
2,500
Oday 192 Lake Nockamixon
Thanks for the pics.
Many boats of that time bolted the chainplate to the bulkhead. Why would o'day have more issues? The system is easily accessible for inspection and maintenance.
It's not just O'day. Jim Taylor, designer of Scott T-Bird's boat, and the Precision line of boats, also did through deck chainplates bolted into structural plywood bulkheads. And, I have seen may Precision owners who keep up on the chainplate (and keyhole cover, if you will) re-sealing with a variety of goops every 10 or so years. People who haven't, are replacing bulkheads, like a friend with a Precision 23.

So, you know, O'day owners don't feel like Jackdaw is beatin' up on 'em! :D
 

JRT

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Feb 14, 2017
2,048
Catalina 310 211 Lake Guntersville, AL
I was actually all set on a Precision 23 in Florida until I found this local Oday. Guess I like Jim Taylor designed boats.
 
Oct 26, 2008
6,079
Catalina 320 Barnegat, NJ
Your chainplates look a lot more beefy then O'Day.
The rig on my boat is pretty robust and it gives me comfort. What you see attached to the bulkhead isn't exactly a chainplate and the component you see on the deck isn't just a cover for the chainplate. The deck fitting is actually a T-shaped hunk of ss with the flanges supporting 4 bolts. The deck penetration is 4 bolts, not a chainplate. The cabin view doesn't quite show that the steel attached to the bulkhead is actually a reinforced angle, with the upper flange accepting the bolts coming thru the deck. Years ago, when I first looked at the deck fittings of an O'Day, I was fooled into thinking that the wood screws that fasten the cover into the deck was the only thing that secured the shrouds (not realizing there was a chainplate fastened to a bulkhead underneath) and I was astonished by what I thought was a weak fitting. I didn't realize at the time that it was just a more traditional chainplate.
 

JRT

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Feb 14, 2017
2,048
Catalina 310 211 Lake Guntersville, AL
Well, made my first trip today from our home marina to the marina hauling her out and fixing the leaking transducer. I had my friend from work along with signifigantly more sailing experience and we did great on the 12 nm trip. Everything work flawlessly and just had a great relaxing sail.
 
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Oliver

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Mar 16, 2014
114
Oday 25 Bradenton Beach Florida
Chain plate... not done but picture gives simple idea. I was lucky with this boat per bad things. That's 3/4 inch treated plywood, I have bigger washers and walnut stain to blend top and bolts, they are color free, the bottom one had a little rust color. I fill the bolt holes and bolts with real good silicon sealant first. It will be good for another 41 years. 1976 and so is to my outboard engine I found for this beauty. And added picture new Master blocks, big giant Grin. Forgot, remember to loosen your mast stays before taking bolts out of your chain plate and secure line to hold mast for a bit. I almost forgot, glad it didn't pop.... not a grin thing.
 

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JRT

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Feb 14, 2017
2,048
Catalina 310 211 Lake Guntersville, AL
I'm planning something similar for extra piece of mind this first season, but I want to get all 4 bolts. What diameter are the bolts? I keep forgetting to measure them.
 

Oliver

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Mar 16, 2014
114
Oday 25 Bradenton Beach Florida
9/16 and used a 14mm closed to hold it in place. Can't reach both hands both sides of bolt at once on port side.
 

JRT

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Feb 14, 2017
2,048
Catalina 310 211 Lake Guntersville, AL
Thanks, I'll pick up longer bolts to take with me.

I'm thinking stainless steel plate backing instead of wood also. What is the chainplate width and thickness?
 
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Ward H

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Nov 7, 2011
3,650
Catalina 30 Mk II Barnegat, NJ
Can't reach both hands both sides of bolt at once on port side.
@Oliver, I rarely have help to hold a wrench so I took an idea from Maine Sail a while back. Some Gorilla Tape, spacers and extra wrenches. Put a wrench on whatever side you want stationary, spin it until it hits something, then spacers and Gorilla Tape to hold it in place. Most of the time I use an open wrench because they lay flat, sometimes I use a box wrench with some angle, whatever it takes to hold it in place.
Last year I installed two 4' jib tracks, 12 machine screws for each, using flat socket wrenches with short Philips bits. I spun them against clamps I had put on the track. Then went inside and tightened the nuts. Took a little longer but doable.
Those blocks look nice, where are they going?
 

Oliver

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Mar 16, 2014
114
Oday 25 Bradenton Beach Florida
I used duck tape to hold, big grin. I'm working on this mess now, pictures. They did not use non rusting bolts, there are 9 on each side. I have new very nice master blocks for replacement but I wanted to save sliders with spring. They used steel so hard I been through 5 gold drill bits, yes the cheep ones to drill out the rivet, had to stop, bouncy water lost a Phillips overboard. There flat heads on top, hate flat head screw bolts. Rust bucket underneath. Please no rain. One side almost clear, one bolt won't let go. What's 18 times 5 ? Can someone lone me money... Just a joke.... boss. ⚓
 

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