New Member here - have a question

[schweisshund]

As for replacing the keel - I cannot understand completely why this is so cost prohibitive other than Macgregor went out of business/owners retired and do not sell them anymore. Or, does it have something to do with the way the boat is structured? can it be replaced? what does it require? I know I can't lift 550 pounds (without a jack). Should I start collecting lead fishing weights, tire weights, etc.? Mix those in with the concrete?

As another hobby, I restore old motorcycles. I took a 1981 Honda Goldwing from the boneyard, took apart a seized motor, and another parts bike and frankensteined it into one bike that I rode from Atlanta to Phoenix and back in 6 days. that is definitely a trip I will always remember. But .. it took me three years at a leisurely pace to get the bike in safe working condition.

Now, before I make any decision, I need to know if a keel is an unobtanium? Why does it total a boat if one is missing? That is the part I am not understanding.

Can you give the dimensions and specifications to a machine shop that has a 3D metal printer?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wRXymDoYoWQ

Can you just have a metal fabrication shop make you one out of scrap metal?

Sorry if these are all newbie questions. I am just trying to understand. I have had to fabricate items when restoring old motorcycles, and I know that doesn't necessarily mean that skill will transfer over to sailboats.

 

[Alan Gomes]

I am going to visit a local magistrate judge and ask what to do. If I file here, if possible, there might be a statute against theft by deception. I don't know what Alabama laws have in regards to that and if I have to file there.

The seller has made it very clear in our email coorespondences that he knew there was no keel prior to selling it. Yet, he never disclosed this even when I asked him. The only "damning" statement I have in writing is his statement which said nothing was broken or missing that everything was there and it was structurally sound.

The written statements are all you should need to win this. Clearly the lack of a keel, which is an integral part of the boat, shows that "not everything was there." You'll win this easily. Now, collecting on the judgment will be the fun part.

 

[Alan Gomes]

As for replacing the keel - I cannot understand completely why this is so cost prohibitive other than Macgregor went out of business/owners retired and do not sell them anymore. Or, does it have something to do with the way the boat is structured? can it be replaced? what does it require? I know I can't lift 550 pounds (without a jack). Should I start collecting lead fishing weights, tire weights, etc.? Mix those in with the concrete?

As another hobby, I restore old motorcycles. I took a 1981 Honda Goldwing from the boneyard, took apart a seized motor, and another parts bike and frankensteined it into one bike that I rode from Atlanta to Phoenix and back in 6 days. that is definitely a trip I will always remember. But .. it took me three years at a leisurely pace to get the bike in safe working condition.

Now, before I make any decision, I need to know if a keel is an unobtanium? Why does it total a boat if one is missing? That is the part I am not understanding.

Can you give the dimensions and specifications to a machine shop that has a 3D metal printer?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wRXymDoYoWQ

Can you just have a metal fabrication shop make you one out of scrap metal?

Sorry if these are all newbie questions. I am just trying to understand. I have had to fabricate items when restoring old motorcycles, and I know that doesn't necessarily mean that skill will transfer over to sailboats.

If you are planning to initiate legal action against this guy, the end result of which might mean that he has to buy back the boat from you, I'm unclear why you are also pursuing cobbling together some kind of replacement keel? Why not take this one step at a time instead of running off in all different directions?

And as for replacing the keel--as I think others are trying to kindly suggest to you, it makes no sense to put any time or money into this boat. It's a losing proposition. This boat has negative value. The only way in which it only marginally "makes sense" is if you enjoy doing this kind of thing for its own sake--but even then, there would be much better boats to start with. But if you actually want to spend your time sailing, you would be far better off just scrapping the boat, learning from your mistake, and moving on to something else.

IMHO your best course of action is to take him to small claims for fraud but do absolutely nothing to this boat in the meantime. Indeed, anything you do to it could work against you in the court case, since the seller could then say that you messed up the boat.

 

[Siamese]

Imagine you're a guy with a worthless old sailboat that you traded an old shotgun for fifteen years ago. Your plans for using it for a fishing boat have changed, and now you're wondering how long you're going to have the thing sitting in your backyard before someoneimpetuous enough, comes along.

And then, there you were. Now, imagine how your heart would be filled with glee as you hold out your hand and receive 400 dollars cash, and watch some guy hook it to his vehicle and tow it out of your life.

It's time for you to see this for what it is. Is he really kicking himself for not getting more for it? Sort of...he realizes that it's not very often someone as "impetuous" as you comes along, and he probably could have squeezed you for a little more if only he had put a higher price on his Craigslist ad. Of course he won't take the boat back and refund your money. He knows lightning only strikes in the same place once.

If you dig a hole in the ground, don't bother putting cement or lead in it. Just throw money in it and cover it up. Same result.

Have you checked the price on a new set of sails yet? Because the boat you describe does not have a usable set of sails. Original to the boat? Blown out? Stitching rotted? Count on it.

If the inside is "hollowed out", does it have bulkheads? Chainplates? Is there water saturation in the wood core of the deck? Why do you think the keel is the only major problem? This thing's a money pit.

Small claims is a waste of time. He won't show up. Or, he shows up and wins the case when he lies to the judge and says you were buying it for parts and the trailer. "Judge, the trailer alone is worth four hundred dollars!" Or he loses the case. It doesn't matter, because even if you prevail in court, you still have to get him to pay! Good luck with that. They're not going to send the national guard to his house and force him to pay.

And, I'll go out on a limb here. You are NOT going to have him arrested and found guilty of endangering your life with a faulty sailboat. Can you really imagine squad cars arriving in his driveway..."come out with your hands up!". And they take him away in shackles to break rocks in the hot sun for the next 10 years? Maybe he'll chisel you out a keel while he's at it.

Take the loss. Mitigate it as much as you can by selling off what you can. Take a lesson. People who teach sailing aren't getting rich and you'll find someone more than happy to accommodate you. Keep reading this forum. Read Chapman's. Read the Annapolis book of sailing. They're probably at your local library.

Get a boat that doesn't need to be restored. Nothing wrong with a used Sunfish, or a Butterfly, etc. for learning to sail. When you're done with it, it will still be worth what you paid and you can move up to a larger boat.

 

[schweisshund]

If you are planning to initiate legal action against this guy, the end result of which might mean that he has to buy back the boat from you, I'm unclear why you are also pursuing cobbling together some kind of replacement keel? Why not take this one step at a time instead of running off in all different directions?

And as for replacing the keel--as I think others are trying to kindly suggest to you, it makes no sense to put any time or money into this boat. It's a losing proposition. This boat has negative value. The only way in which it only marginally "makes sense" is if you enjoy doing this kind of thing for its own sake--but even then, there would be much better boats to start with. But if you actually want to spend your time sailing, you would be far better off just scrapping the boat, learning from your mistake, and moving on to something else.

IMHO your best course of action is to take him to small claims for fraud but do absolutely nothing to this boat in the meantime. Indeed, anything you do to it could work against you in the court case, since the seller could then say that you messed up the boat.

Because he is going to use, in his defense, that replacing the keel is no big deal. He has indicated this in his email correspondence

 

[schweisshund]

Imagine you're a guy with a worthless old sailboat that you traded an old shotgun for fifteen years ago. Your plans for using it for a fishing boat have changed, and now you're wondering how long you're going to have the thing sitting in your backyard before someoneimpetuous enough, comes along.

And then, there you were. Now, imagine how your heart would be filled with glee as you hold out your hand and receive 400 dollars cash, and watch some guy hook it to his vehicle and tow it out of your life.

It's time for you to see this for what it is. Is he really kicking himself for not getting more for it? Sort of...he realizes that it's not very often someone as "impetuous" as you comes along, and he probably could have squeezed you for a little more if only he had put a higher price on his Craigslist ad. Of course he won't take the boat back and refund your money. He knows lightning only strikes in the same place once.

If you dig a hole in the ground, don't bother putting cement or lead in it. Just throw money in it and cover it up. Same result.

Have you checked the price on a new set of sails yet? Because the boat you describe does not have a usable set of sails. Original to the boat? Blown out? Stitching rotted? Count on it.

If the inside is "hollowed out", does it have bulkheads? Chainplates? Is there water saturation in the wood core of the deck? Why do you think the keel is the only major problem? This thing's a money pit.

Small claims is a waste of time. He won't show up. Or, he shows up and wins the case when he lies to the judge and says you were buying it for parts and the trailer. "Judge, the trailer alone is worth four hundred dollars!" Or he loses the case. It doesn't matter, because even if you prevail in court, you still have to get him to pay! Good luck with that. They're not going to send the national guard to his house and force him to pay.

And, I'll go out on a limb here. You are NOT going to have him arrested and found guilty of endangering your life with a faulty sailboat. Can you really imagine squad cars arriving in his driveway..."come out with your hands up!". And they take him away in shackles to break rocks in the hot sun for the next 10 years? Maybe he'll chisel you out a keel while he's at it.

Take the loss. Mitigate it as much as you can by selling off what you can. Take a lesson. People who teach sailing aren't getting rich and you'll find someone more than happy to accommodate you. Keep reading this forum. Read Chapman's. Read the Annapolis book of sailing. They're probably at your local library.

Get a boat that doesn't need to be restored. Nothing wrong with a used Sunfish, or a Butterfly, etc. for learning to sail. When you're done with it, it will still be worth what you paid and you can move up to a larger boat.

If he doesn't show up I win by default. If he does not pay, I can have his wages garnished. If this goes to court, I am asking for more than just a refund. The time I have already spent trying to be amicable and return this to him for a refund isn't going to be free. I have talked to the District Court in his County.

 

[Siamese]

Well yeah, the district court is going to tell you that. Good luck with reality.

I thought you said you want to go sailing.

 

[schweisshund]

Well yeah, the district court is going to tell you that. Good luck with reality.

I thought you said you want to go sailing.

Sailing? Yes I want to go sailing. Apparently you can't do that without a keel. And I am not as impetuous as you perceive. Perceptions can be a bit distorted on the Internet so I'll give you that.

I will be suing the seller and I am full aware that I have a 50/50 chance, and if I lose, I will appeal.

I tend to follow through. I offered to bring this back at my expense for a refund. He refused the refund and actually admitted I was misled. So, there you have it.

Edit to add: I also know the difference between a tort and a crime. When it became apparent that this was not a tort violation, but a crime, it changed everything. The seller could very well weasel his way out of this, but I do have all of our correspondence and will be glad to give him the opportunity to explain this in court since we could not resolve this amicably.

 

[TortugasRoyal]

close to you, a boat salvage yard: http://www.laniermarine.com/

 

[schweisshund]

close to you, a boat salvage yard: http://www.laniermarine.com/

Thank you. I also went to a Marina at Lake Allatoona and was told that a keel would have to be special ordered, the boat put on a lift, and the keel placed in the hull. I was also told they would inspect the hull to see if the keel had been damaged and dropped and did additional damage to the hull (which they believe happened). They told me the boat would have been "totaled" by an insurance company as the cost to repair it would exceed the value of the boat.

Having it inspected and something on paper will help in court.

 

[schweisshund]

The written statements are all you should need to win this. Clearly the lack of a keel, which is an integral part of the boat, shows that "not everything was there." You'll win this easily. Now, collecting on the judgment will be the fun part.

I know it is not going to be easy. I am trying to do things with great restraint. I have given him every opportunity to make this right, and he refused. So, I found all the information I need to know (his address, place of employment, position there, his spouse's name, their phone numbers and multiple other ways he can be contacted when served). I have given him 21 days before any further action will be taken (plenty of time - and more than is required). Since he rescinded my offer to return his junk for a refund - it has become a demand that he not only return my money, but reimburse the gas I spent and the time I spent hauling his junk away from his home. I also stated he could retrieve his belongings from a local sheriff's department as they have it situated for Craigslist purchases (for safety). If he claims there is any damage - which he more than likely will - it will not be damage I did to it. If he claims anything is missing (oh, like the keel) he will get a good scoffing from me - I am not a thief and have all the documentation I need to prove he is getting everything back in the condition it was sold. Smartphones come in handy. They have recording devices too. (you have to remember - weasels are slippery when cornered). if there is any inaction on his part within 21 days, I am filing a lawsuit.

 

[Freedom77]

Replacing the keel is a BIG DEAL!! You just can't go to keels R US and get a replacement of 500# of shaped cast iron. What you have right now is a $400.00 paper weight. This guy is a scheister and has knowingly committed fraud and he knew exactly what he was doing. SUE the SOB in small claims and put a lien on his house or other property. Don't care if it was "AS IS". I'm Just sayin'. Keep us posted.

 

[MrBill_FLL]

Can someone help this guy locate a thread where someone fabricated a keel?

I looked but can't find it.

what I remember was it was a few slabs of iron (or steel?) welded together. the 2center pieces were the longest, the 2nd was about 2' shorter, and the last plates were for the head, where it pivots. * IIRC*

as I remember, the owner then coated it with epoxy, and barrier coated it and fair-ed it (somewhat of a foil shape).


I think it was at least a year ago... not having much luck with the search here...

(again, AFAIK, I think it cost around a grand all in)....


The key question for me, is what else is wrong, and expensive to repair. that will decide if its worth fabricating a new one.



To the OP, I wish you luck, but keep in mind...
Winning in court, and collecting are 2 vastly different things.
if the owner knew he was cheating you, he probably knows how not to avoid paying any judgement.

btw, it still has value as a parts boat.

-pics?

 

[jwing]

You will be money ahead to cut that boat into pieces with a saws-all, haul it off to the dump, and start over with a better boat.

More importantly, the damage you are doing to your psyche and those of your family has already exceeded $400 worth and cannot be reclaimed. So long as you have that boat, it will suck happiness out of your life and replace it with anger. The sooner you get rid of the boat, forget about it, and drop any thoughts of retribution, the better your life will be. It's your choice, but remember you are making the choice for your wife and sons as well.

Buy a decent sailboat and bliss out on sailing. There will be plenty of projects to keep you busy even on a good boat.

Buy and read: Inspecting the Aging Sailboat, by Don Casey

 

[Freedom77]

I don't want to disagree with JWing. It's not so much the money, as the principal. I got ripped off on a car deal some years ago and I made the seller sorry he ever met me. If he gets away with it with you, or has already gotten away with someone else, he'll do it again. Also, if I understand correctly, you bought it through Craig's List. After you have served him, tell them you are going to notify Craig's that he is disreputable seller and they can possibly bar him from advertising. Let him try to sue you for that and see how the oscillator distributes the manure.

 

[schweisshund]

I understand (and truly appreciate) what Jwing is saying. There is a "however" though.

"However" ... What would truly damage my psyche, and that of my family, is if the seller got away with doing this to us. He will do it to someone else. My wife is fully aware of the situation, and is the one who suggested leaving it at the Sheriff Departments impound lot for him to pick up ( as I already offered to bring this back at my own expense). She pretty much told me to NOT be nice, but be fair. I already took the nice approach, and the seller proved to be ... Well ... More than just a jerk.

Again, I know what jwing is saying and there is a lot of truth and consideration in those words. My psyche is just wired differently.

There are a lot of things to be grateful for and I do appreciate all the feedback given here.

What if I had not made this discovery until I was in the middle of the lake with my family onboard? What if I went and bought the items I needed to rebuild the cabin and did all the work then made the discovery?

Now, I do know this will perhaps sound melodramatic, but there is also a lot of truth in the quote "evil exists when good men do nothing". (I know, I know I can hear y'all's eyes rolling from here lol).

 

[BudGates]

We're all glad that you discovered the issue sooner rather than later and hope you get the situation settled. We also hope that you keep perusing your sailing dream and actually do learn to sail and love it as much as we do.

Good luck and let us know the outcome.

 

[schweisshund]

We're all glad that you discovered the issue sooner rather than later and hope you get the situation settled. We also hope that you keep perusing your sailing dream and actually do learn to sail and love it as much as we do.

Good luck and let us know the outcome.

Thank you very much I truly appreciate that.

 

[kito]

Why destroy it. You would be better off buying a good one like it and keep the other for parts.

 

[schweisshund]

Can someone help this guy locate a thread where someone fabricated a keel?

I looked but can't find it.

what I remember was it was a few slabs of iron (or steel?) welded together. the 2center pieces were the longest, the 2nd was about 2' shorter, and the last plates were for the head, where it pivots. * IIRC*

as I remember, the owner then coated it with epoxy, and barrier coated it and fair-ed it (somewhat of a foil shape).


I think it was at least a year ago... not having much luck with the search here...

(again, AFAIK, I think it cost around a grand all in)....


The key question for me, is what else is wrong, and expensive to repair. that will decide if its worth fabricating a new one.



To the OP, I wish you luck, but keep in mind...
Winning in court, and collecting are 2 vastly different things.
if the owner knew he was cheating you, he probably knows how not to avoid paying any judgement.

btw, it still has value as a parts boat.

-pics?

When I was searching for a way to see if I could find a salvaged keel after my initial discovery that it was gone, I came across this website (and I am putting it here in case any other forum members have been looking for a way to make their own keel - I however, do not have the capability or skills to do this safely):

http://www.glen-l.com/misc/lead-keel-1.html

The author of the article built his own sailboat, and poured his own lead keel ( a 1 ton keel from scrap lead he collected). I also searched a scrap metal forum and came to find out you can get lead from a Nuclear Medical Center, gun range, tire shop and scrap yard. Again, I don't have the time to travel further down this rabbit hole. But, if someone has the means to do this, and there is actually a demand for keels - a person could set up an e-bay store or similar and make trailer sailor replacement keels - in theory.
If I were to try and do this with having no experience, well ... I won't be doing it. Too dangerous for me.

Edit to add: I also do not know how the keel ended up missing. Only the seller knows and he hasn't been honest and upfront. It very well could be at the bottom of a lake somewhere and additional damage to the hull occurred.