New Member here - have a question

[schweisshund]

Hello all. I just purchased my very first sailboat. After canoeing-kayaking, and becoming a new dad (twice) in the past 20 months to two boys, I figured it was time I learned how. So, I scoured the internet, and asked the smarty pants on the other forums I am a member of, what I needed to do (some of them are sailors - others never sailed a boat but just gave practical advice).

I figured I should buy a cheap sailboat that I will make all my newbie mistakes on. So .... I found a MacGregor Venture 22 - with a trailer - for $400.

I knew something had to be wrong with it. So, I asked the seller "What is wrong with it?" (I am rather blunt and to the point). I was assured that nothing was wrong with it at all, that he had just lost interest in sailing a long time ago, that there was no damage, that everything was there .. all sails, riggings etc.

It has algae growing on it, in it, under it - no big deal to me, I figure I can clean all the crud off. It had been sitting under an aluminum shed (or, at least it was the day I picked it up). It had been hollowed out. No sink, no cushions, nothing.

Again, none of these things are a really big issue for me. What is the main issue for me, is that it was never disclosed that the keel had been removed.

Now, I spent several hours trying to find out how much a replacement would cost. I still don't know. No one seems to know where I can get a replacement for one (not even e-bay).

So, I find this lack of disclosure that it is missing a keel to be quite suspect (even after asking him what was wrong with it).

I do not care that it was just $400. Even though I know next to nothing about sailing, I at least know you need a keel. I would not have driven 3 hours there, and 5 hours back (because the trailer lights didn't work, had to stop several times and was pulled over -- "new lights" the seller said).

So, does anyone know where I can find one? I would appreciate it. I have much to learn, and I should have just followed the advice from the non-sailors on the other forums I am a member of ((take lessons before you buy)).

 

[Bob 04 H260]

Welcome to the forums and life as a sailor.
I think you got your first lesson, it cost $400.
Your friends were right, getting sailing lessons is a very good way to start off.

My advice would be not to invest anything more in this boat, cut your losses now. Move on.
Figure on spending a few more dollars for something safe and comfortable for your new family. A Mac is a good boat to start off with.
If there is a sailing club in your area it would be a good place to hang out. Chances are you will get invited out for a sail. If you see a sailboat at a ramp going out or coming from a day sail, stop by. The owner will probably be happy to talk about his boat.
As you make some contacts you can ask one to look at a boat you are interested in. if you do find a boat of interest ask about it on the forums here. If you need someone to look at it with you ask on the "ask all sailors forum". Everyone here will be happy to help you, we started off where you are.
Good luck, Bob

 

[schweisshund]

Thank you Bob. I get what you are saying. But I am a die hard. I got the specs for the keel for this boat, and will be visiting fabrication shops to see if one can be made. It weighs 500 lbs. (so I am sure, the previous owner knew it was missing).

I bought this boat for several reasons - mainly, because I am a hands on learner, and I want to know where everything goes (it did come with all the sails and riggings). So even if it never sails, and even if I don't ever get a keel for it, I can at least learn how to raise the mast and sails.

Not as much fun as actually sailing and being on the water .... but at least I have a boat trailer and sails.

I will definitely hang out at local sail clubs. I should mention that I am deaf/hoh and that a verbal sailing class wouldn't do me much good anyway. I would need an instructor that could sign, and in my neck of the proverbial forest, I know of none that can.

This is what inspired me :

http://www.sailingscuttlebutt.com/2...erson-to-sail-single-handed-around-the-world/

 

[walt]

What is the main issue for me, is that it was never disclosed that the keel had been removed.

Man.. that is just low down scum stuff.. not disclosing that to a new sailer could have been very dangerous..

 

[Siamese]

Get rid of it. What's wrong with it besides the keel?!?! The standing rigging? Running rigging? Water penetration in the deck? Sails?

Throw a rock, and you're likely to hit a scumbag, so it's no surprise that the owner is a scumbag. Is it obvious at this point that nothing an owner says is reliable? Were you a bit naive? Un-informed?

My first boat was a fantastic little 16 foot Grumman. That I paid too much for. The boat was for sale by a dealer, and when I asked him how much, he said he was "taking bids". That threw me a little, but I asked him what the high bid was so far, and he said $1,200.00. I said "okay, I'll give you $1,300". And, I had my new boat. Great little boat, but 40 years later I'm still kicking myself....a little.

I was lucky enough to have gotten a really good boat that was 100%. But, I was naive and uninformed.

Suggest you get rid of this loser in the best way possible. The trailer's worth something. Is there a motor on it that's worth something? The boat is worth a negative amount. The good news is, if you get rid of it now, you're unlikely to lose more that the $400.00 you've already lost.

I'd like to see you be successful in your desire to sail. A boat like that is a barrier to your goal. Sharing your experience here, was your best move thus far. I can't overstate the value of internet forums and other internet resources for a new sailor.

If you decide not to be a "diehard" (they tend to die), and you get rid of your albatross, it's likely that you could hook up with an experienced sailor in your area who could help you with a purchase. They can help you weed out the real losers.

Have a survey done on your next purchase. Some might scoff at the idea of surveying a 22 footer, but you've proven that an in-experienced sailor will certainly benefit. A surveyor's fee will be based on the size of the boat. The deficiency in your boat would have been found quickly....inspect keel and keel attachment....oh my!

Best of luck to you.

 

[Chief RA]

Make a keel of cement and encase it in fiberglass fabric and epoxy. Dig a mold in the ground, line with plastic sheeting, put in rebar and pour cement. Finish shape dried keel with sidewinder grinder and then epoxy over it. Just an idea that could work. Chief

 

[MrBill_FLL]

there are threads here where people have welded steel (or iron?) and encased it in epoxy. (+ ospho/barrier coat)

IIRC, the weight of original was ~550#


I would worry about what else is wrong, broken or missing. if you look around I think you find a nice example goes for ~$3000-3500. (or less).

its not too difficult spending 10k on a 3k boat...

 

[Kings Gambit]

I figured I should buy a cheap sailboat that I will make all my newbie mistakes on. So .... I found a MacGregor Venture 22 - with a trailer - for $400.

You've gotten off cheap on the scale of costly newbie boat-buyers "mistakes." If you're going to buy a boat--any boat-- you have to research the purchase, etc., and thoroughly inspect the boat. The V22 has a swing keel; I assume you're aware. Maybe the guy has it somewhere in the shed or garage but more likely it fell off somewhere along the way and that's why the boat's been sitting so long and the owner has "lost interest."

 

[Justin_NSA]

Was this on Craigslist? Tell the seller to buy it back or you are going to post an ad saying not to buy from this dirtbag. If anything, you'll feel better.

I agree with getting rid of it now! It's a boat. Anything related to "marine" is expensive. Cut your losses and find something nicer.

 

[BudGates]

On the other hand, V-22s are quite popular and there are a lot of them around. It wouldn't surprise me if you could find one with a good keel that may have other things wrong with it. You could probably build one good boat out of two sub standard boats.

 

[MrBill_FLL]

^1+

find another V22 and build 1 boat.

 

[schweisshund]

You've gotten off cheap on the scale of costly newbie boat-buyers "mistakes." If you're going to buy a boat--any boat-- you have to research the purchase, etc., and thoroughly inspect the boat. The V22 has a swing keel; I assume you're aware. Maybe the guy has it somewhere in the shed or garage but more likely it fell off somewhere along the way and that's why the boat's been sitting so long and the owner has "lost interest."

^ This is what happened. I have been corresponding with the owner by email. I asked him three separate times if it had a keel. I also asked him if there was any structural damage to the boat. He said that nothing was broken and everything came with it.

So, I asked him if maybe he had it removed when he got it painted, and it is still at his house somewhere?

He replied stating I bought it "as-is" and that I told him it didn't have a keel (???). I never told him it didn't have a keel. I have copies of his ad, and all our email correspondence. I also did not sign the bill of sale. Legally though, I did leave his property with it and paid him cash - but only after being told nothing was wrong with it and that it was structurally sound.

So, he has proven to me that he is a liar. I will be returning this flower pot back to his property next week and filing a police report if he continues not to be amicable.

 

[schweisshund]

^1+

find another V22 and build 1 boat.

I already did

The seller wants $800 and he removed the toilet.

The boat I have has nothing inside of it.
What I am going to do is NOT buy another boat though. I might decide to make the concrete keel as suggested. If I damage anything, it should be on a $400 boat.

Then, after I know what I am doing, I can damage a $10,000 boat

 

[Doc_holiday]

On my first boat the PO was nice enough to put carpet in. (Covered a full tube of caulk trying to keep the hull from leaking at the keel trunk). Worked great until he was gone and I was pulling out of the slip.

Scrap it, chalk it up and find a good boat worth working on.

 

[schweisshund]

Any idea where it can be scrapped? I want to keep the trailer. There are some good deals on sailboats with no trailer.

 

[Alan Gomes]

^ This is what happened. I have been corresponding with the owner by email. I asked him three separate times if it had a keel. I also asked him if there was any structural damage to the boat. He said that nothing was broken and everything came with it.

So, I asked him if maybe he had it removed when he got it painted, and it is still at his house somewhere?

He replied stating I bought it "as-is" and that I told him it didn't have a keel (???). I never told him it didn't have a keel. I have copies of his ad, and all our email correspondence. I also did not sign the bill of sale. Legally though, I did leave his property with it and paid him cash - but only after being told nothing was wrong with it and that it was structurally sound.

So, he has proven to me that he is a liar. I will be returning this flower pot back to his property next week and filing a police report if he continues not to be amicable.

Have you considered small claims court?

 

[schweisshund]

Have you considered small claims court?

Absolutely ... May even get a judgement that considers the time I spent and gas making the trip (it was a 3 and a half hour trip one way). The filing fee is $46

 

[schweisshund]

I am going to visit a local magistrate judge and ask what to do. If I file here, if possible, there might be a statute against theft by deception. I don't know what Alabama laws have in regards to that and if I have to file there.

The seller has made it very clear in our email coorespondences that he knew there was no keel prior to selling it. Yet, he never disclosed this even when I asked him. The only "damning" statement I have in writing is his statement which said nothing was broken or missing that everything was there and it was structurally sound.

 

[dale4643]

My man I feel for you, that guy was is a dirtbag and I would consider at least small claims court and maybe the court would be compassionate that it was sold to you and sailing without a keel is a 100% recipe for disaster that could lead to a fatality or serious injury. Heck I don't know sounds good to me. And I think his "damning statement" is sure proof that it was deception. But good luck in civil court and then getting money from him....I'm sure it is probably not his first rodeo with screwing people.

Follow some of the advice on here.....strip the damn thing and haul the rest of it to the junk yard. You can get a few hundred out of the trailer if its in descent shape. I periodically see people on these sites begging for a mast...that may be a few hundred...they pay for shipping...then you may be able to nickel and dime out some other stuff...lights, standing rigging maybe, hardware etc. Although the concrete keel sounds easy it would not be cost efficient in the long run. If it ever got water inside it and froze it would crack, will be expensive to properly seal up ....and it's not very dense so I doubt if you have enough room up there for 500+ pounds of concrete keel. A new owner with a small family sailing in a lake better make sure that keel is solid, especially if you hit something (I did the first few times).

Buying a motor, constructing a keel , making cushions, finding a galley (or making one), probably new windows, getting out all of that mold and mildew out and ALL THE OTHER SUPRISES YOUR GOING TO FIND IS GOING TO EAT YOUR LUNCH with $$$ and valuable sailing time! I bought my 85 Mac22 3 years ago for $1700, totally sail ready, great 4hp motor, original sails and cushions, porta potty and I have still probably put another $1000 in it on odds and ends for my "wants" ....not to mention HUNDREDS OF HOURS OF WORK. Take your time and find that right one...they are out there reach out a little further if you have to, it might be worth the drive.

 

[schweisshund]

My man I feel for you, that guy was is a dirtbag and I would consider at least small claims court and maybe the court would be compassionate that it was sold to you and sailing without a keel is a 100% recipe for disaster that could lead to a fatality or serious injury. Heck I don't know sounds good to me. And I think his "damning statement" is sure proof that it was deception. But good luck in civil court and then getting money from him....I'm sure it is probably not his first rodeo with screwing people.

Follow some of the advice on here.....strip the damn thing and haul the rest of it to the junk yard. You can get a few hundred out of the trailer if its in descent shape. I periodically see people on these sites begging for a mast...that may be a few hundred...they pay for shipping...then you may be able to nickel and dime out some other stuff...lights, standing rigging maybe, hardware etc. Although the concrete keel sounds easy it would not be cost efficient in the long run. If it ever got water inside it and froze it would crack, will be expensive to properly seal up ....and it's not very dense so I doubt if you have enough room up there for 500+ pounds of concrete keel. A new owner with a small family sailing in a lake better make sure that keel is solid, especially if you hit something (I did the first few times).

Buying a motor, constructing a keel , making cushions, finding a galley (or making one), probably new windows, getting out all of that mold and mildew out and ALL THE OTHER SUPRISES YOUR GOING TO FIND IS GOING TO EAT YOUR LUNCH with $$$ and valuable sailing time! I bought my 85 Mac22 3 years ago for $1700, totally sail ready, great 4hp motor, original sails and cushions, porta potty and I have still probably put another $1000 in it on odds and ends for my "wants" ....not to mention HUNDREDS OF HOURS OF WORK. Take your time and find that right one...they are out there reach out a little further if you have to, it might be worth the drive.

Yes, I have thought about this too. I have all the sails, cushions, floatation devices, rigs, wooden railings, rudder and hollowed out hull with a pop up. It is nasty in there. The windows are good. I could very well just keep the trailer and an eye out for another sail ready Macgregor - then I would have extra sails, mast etc.

But, there comes a time when a perfect stranger thinks they can take a dump on you and tell you they did you a favor. I am usually a very nice person, except when that happens. I have offered to drive this all the way back to his property with everything returned for a full refund. He mentioned how he was kicking himself for selling it for $400 instead of "a lot more". I told him that the other buyers he mentioned were interested in it could have this if they wanted. I just want my $400 back (it isn't about the money). He doesn't want this back for some reason or other - as much as he said he hated selling it, one would think he would love to have it back.

Strange ....

The statement you said about not disclosing that to a new sailor leading to a fatality is what this is about. I have been looking over Alabama Code and came to find that what was done is a crime. I can press charges.

Section 13A-8-1 - Definitions generally.

The following definitions are applicable in this article unless the context otherwise requires:
(1) DECEPTION occurs when a person knowingly:
a. Creates or confirms another's impression which is false and which the defendant does not believe to be true; or
b. Fails to correct a false impression which the defendant previously has created or confirmed; or
c. Fails to correct a false impression when the defendant is under a duty to do so; or
d. Prevents another from acquiring information pertinent to the disposition of the property involved; or
e. Sells or otherwise transfers or encumbers property, failing to disclose a lien, adverse claim, or other legal impediment to the enjoyment of the property when the defendant is under a duty to do so, whether that impediment is or is not valid, or is not a matter of official record; or
f. Promises performance which the defendant does not intend to perform or knows will not be performed. Failure to perform, standing alone, however, is not proof that the defendant did not intend to perform.
The term "deception" does not, however, include falsity as to matters having no pecuniary significance, or puffing by statements unlikely to deceive ordinary persons. "Puffing" means an exaggerated commendation of wares or services.