New Catalina had soft grounding on inside breakwater sandy shoaling and came to a complete hault while traveling 5 knots. The dealer said everything should be fine as it was a sandy bottom and the keel is built to take those kind of forces. Should I have a surveyor look at it. I could offer to pay for a haul out at the yard to look at the bottom. What problems if any should I look for? What experience have others had of a similar nature. My wife was steering but with out advice or direction from the broker in a difficult harbor sitution. If there are problems than what? We have paid our deposits and they have sold our trade in, but the deal has not been concluded yet. Shouldn't the dealer be responsible for putting the boat right if needed?
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Boat Dealer should be responsible
for making everything right. They are supposed to know what is going on during a sea trial. You shouldn't feel obligated to pay for haul-out or anything. Regards, Ted
for making everything right. They are supposed to know what is going on during a sea trial. You shouldn't feel obligated to pay for haul-out or anything. Regards, Ted
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Mike
Pilot error
Sounds to me like even though your wife was piloting the boat, you are blaming the broker. If you were a car salesman, and a person who had just purchased a car from you and traded in their old car went on a test drive with you in the car hit a utility pole, would you be at fault?
Sounds to me like even though your wife was piloting the boat, you are blaming the broker. If you were a car salesman, and a person who had just purchased a car from you and traded in their old car went on a test drive with you in the car hit a utility pole, would you be at fault?
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Kevin
Different take.
I went on a trial run as part of a survey a few months ago. I was at the helm of the boat as we headed in. It was a marina that I had not sailed out of before. I told the broker's salesman, "Here, you come and take it from here." for exactly the reason of what happened to you. I know that this is the era of "no personal responsibility", but if your wife was not comfortable with the situation, did she ask help of the broker or anyone else on board to indicte that she did not know where to go, or did she just stay at the helm as though she knew what she was doing? Did she make the decision to stay at the helm? Could she have said to anyone, "I am not familiar with this area, would someone who is please take if from here?" Did she, or you, have that option, and decided not to take it?
I went on a trial run as part of a survey a few months ago. I was at the helm of the boat as we headed in. It was a marina that I had not sailed out of before. I told the broker's salesman, "Here, you come and take it from here." for exactly the reason of what happened to you. I know that this is the era of "no personal responsibility", but if your wife was not comfortable with the situation, did she ask help of the broker or anyone else on board to indicte that she did not know where to go, or did she just stay at the helm as though she knew what she was doing? Did she make the decision to stay at the helm? Could she have said to anyone, "I am not familiar with this area, would someone who is please take if from here?" Did she, or you, have that option, and decided not to take it?
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Kevin
Sam, let me clarify.
My response was not meant as an attack or criticism of you, just some questions you could ask yourself to see the situation from a different perspective. After all, if I were on a boat, with someone else at the helm and we were coming into a harbor and the person at the helm did not say anything to anyone about not knowing which way to go, but just kept silent, then I would have to assume that that person knew where they were going. After all, you would expect them to ask for help if they felt like they needed it. Could there have been a little bit of thought in the minds of others, "Well, the lady must know what she is doing, and I am not going to insult her by implying that she does not, and asking her is she needs help."?
My response was not meant as an attack or criticism of you, just some questions you could ask yourself to see the situation from a different perspective. After all, if I were on a boat, with someone else at the helm and we were coming into a harbor and the person at the helm did not say anything to anyone about not knowing which way to go, but just kept silent, then I would have to assume that that person knew where they were going. After all, you would expect them to ask for help if they felt like they needed it. Could there have been a little bit of thought in the minds of others, "Well, the lady must know what she is doing, and I am not going to insult her by implying that she does not, and asking her is she needs help."?
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Garry @ S/V TASHTEGO
Survey
Every offer to purchase should contain the phrase, "subject to survey results acceptable to the buyer." If you had that clause in your purchase agreement you could haul the boat and have your (not the dealer's) surveyor inspect the boat for all aspects including damage during the sea trials. Sea trials should be a part of the survey in any case. New Boat, old boat, makes no difference. By the way I'm not a surveyor. Note also that, until the sale is final, it's not your boat. It still belongs to the dealer.
Every offer to purchase should contain the phrase, "subject to survey results acceptable to the buyer." If you had that clause in your purchase agreement you could haul the boat and have your (not the dealer's) surveyor inspect the boat for all aspects including damage during the sea trials. Sea trials should be a part of the survey in any case. New Boat, old boat, makes no difference. By the way I'm not a surveyor. Note also that, until the sale is final, it's not your boat. It still belongs to the dealer.
Who was the captain
I think if we checked real close, the broker here would be considered the captain and I think the captain is always responsible for his/her boat -- regardless of who is at the helm. Fair winds -- Paul
I think if we checked real close, the broker here would be considered the captain and I think the captain is always responsible for his/her boat -- regardless of who is at the helm. Fair winds -- Paul
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Kevin
Wonderful advice.
Sam, you are getting some wonderful advice here, and when this is all said and done, and you actually have your boat, always remember this, that YOU will be the captain and that "the captain is always responsible for his/her boat -- regardless of who is at the helm." If someone is on your boat and slips and falls on a wet spot (imagine that, a wet spot on a sailboat!) you are subject to being sued by that person because, "the captain is always responsible for his/her boat -- regardless of who is at the helm.". And if you allow someone to take the helm, and he or she does anything that causes damage to your boat or another or even physical injury to anyone, that, "the captain is always responsible for his/her boat -- regardless of who is at the helm." You should never expect for anyone to make right with you anything they do on your boat because, "the captain is always responsible for his/her boat -- regardless of who is at the helm." Happy sailing!
Sam, you are getting some wonderful advice here, and when this is all said and done, and you actually have your boat, always remember this, that YOU will be the captain and that "the captain is always responsible for his/her boat -- regardless of who is at the helm." If someone is on your boat and slips and falls on a wet spot (imagine that, a wet spot on a sailboat!) you are subject to being sued by that person because, "the captain is always responsible for his/her boat -- regardless of who is at the helm.". And if you allow someone to take the helm, and he or she does anything that causes damage to your boat or another or even physical injury to anyone, that, "the captain is always responsible for his/her boat -- regardless of who is at the helm." You should never expect for anyone to make right with you anything they do on your boat because, "the captain is always responsible for his/her boat -- regardless of who is at the helm." Happy sailing!
Who's In Charge?
I agree with the previous posters who state that it's the marina's boat, the marina's Captain, thus the marina's responsiblilty...makes no difference who's at the controls. As the Army would say, "the Captain is resposible for everything that happens or fails to happen." This is in no way similar to a test drive in a car. As for the survey, I would want the boat pulled (or a diver) to check the keel/hull. Too much money to 'hope' all is well under there.
I agree with the previous posters who state that it's the marina's boat, the marina's Captain, thus the marina's responsiblilty...makes no difference who's at the controls. As the Army would say, "the Captain is resposible for everything that happens or fails to happen." This is in no way similar to a test drive in a car. As for the survey, I would want the boat pulled (or a diver) to check the keel/hull. Too much money to 'hope' all is well under there.
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Kevin
Oh boy!
Having seen the error in my thinking from the subsequent posters, I have come to realize that certainly you or your wife must have suffered some sort of physical injury from this sudden grounding. I suspect that you both have suffered some sort of whiplash, and must be experiencing severe pain in your necks, for which you should immediately file suit against the "captain" since he was in charge of the boat. If you play your cards as laid out to you by some of these posters, you may well get the boat for free! Hey, my neck is hurting, just thinking about this sudden grounding. Please give me the name of the captain, so that I can file suit against him. Perhaps we could all go in on a class action, I am sure that some of the other guys would be in favor of that! We may all get free boats out of this event, wouldn't that be great!
Having seen the error in my thinking from the subsequent posters, I have come to realize that certainly you or your wife must have suffered some sort of physical injury from this sudden grounding. I suspect that you both have suffered some sort of whiplash, and must be experiencing severe pain in your necks, for which you should immediately file suit against the "captain" since he was in charge of the boat. If you play your cards as laid out to you by some of these posters, you may well get the boat for free! Hey, my neck is hurting, just thinking about this sudden grounding. Please give me the name of the captain, so that I can file suit against him. Perhaps we could all go in on a class action, I am sure that some of the other guys would be in favor of that! We may all get free boats out of this event, wouldn't that be great!
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Kevin
You are correct Paul,
To many in our society today, personal responsibility, and being accountable for your actions have been replaced by a sentiment of, "Gee, I screwed up there, surely there must be someone else that I can blame this on!"
To many in our society today, personal responsibility, and being accountable for your actions have been replaced by a sentiment of, "Gee, I screwed up there, surely there must be someone else that I can blame this on!"
Safty Afloat
HI Kevin, This could turn out to me a very interesting discussion. In reading Chapman's on Safety Afloat I see: "The primary responsibility of a skipper is the safety of his vessel and the people aboard. This applies to all sizes of boats, on all waters and at all times." Other subjects in this chaper are Leadership -"each skipper must know himself, his abilities, and his limitations; he must know his job ... and he must know his crew and his boat..." Foresight - "A first class skipper doesn't wait for an emergency to arise; he has already formulated solutions to any emergency he may face." Vigilance - "The skipper must see intelligently all that comes within his vision, outside and inside the boat." and Common Sense - "The successful skipper has a sense of proportion and the fitness of things." When I turn the wheel over to someone it is almost always to someone with less experience than I have. If they run aground I accept the fact that I could probably have avoided that if I had been paying more attention -- I accept part of the blame. You are correct that way too many people are looking for someone to blame for everything and a quick way to make an extra buck -- or lots of bucks. Fairwinds -- Paul
HI Kevin, This could turn out to me a very interesting discussion. In reading Chapman's on Safety Afloat I see: "The primary responsibility of a skipper is the safety of his vessel and the people aboard. This applies to all sizes of boats, on all waters and at all times." Other subjects in this chaper are Leadership -"each skipper must know himself, his abilities, and his limitations; he must know his job ... and he must know his crew and his boat..." Foresight - "A first class skipper doesn't wait for an emergency to arise; he has already formulated solutions to any emergency he may face." Vigilance - "The skipper must see intelligently all that comes within his vision, outside and inside the boat." and Common Sense - "The successful skipper has a sense of proportion and the fitness of things." When I turn the wheel over to someone it is almost always to someone with less experience than I have. If they run aground I accept the fact that I could probably have avoided that if I had been paying more attention -- I accept part of the blame. You are correct that way too many people are looking for someone to blame for everything and a quick way to make an extra buck -- or lots of bucks. Fairwinds -- Paul
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Mark
It's the broker's boat.
I have completed two sea trials, the latest with the late Charlie Segal of Catalina Yacht Anchorage in MDR. A sea trial is your first chance to feel the boat - usually in unfamilar waters. Its the brokers boat and he is Captian of the vessel. When you left the dock - who was in control? The broker usually takes the boat out and gives you the helm once he knows his boat is safe. I'm curious of two things 1) where was the Captain when this happen and 2) was your grounding in local SoCal area. I sail out of Long Beach and would be interested in knowing where this happen. The broker will have access to free in-and-outs at the yard they do their business with. They should lift the boat and let you or your surveyor look at it for no charge.
I have completed two sea trials, the latest with the late Charlie Segal of Catalina Yacht Anchorage in MDR. A sea trial is your first chance to feel the boat - usually in unfamilar waters. Its the brokers boat and he is Captian of the vessel. When you left the dock - who was in control? The broker usually takes the boat out and gives you the helm once he knows his boat is safe. I'm curious of two things 1) where was the Captain when this happen and 2) was your grounding in local SoCal area. I sail out of Long Beach and would be interested in knowing where this happen. The broker will have access to free in-and-outs at the yard they do their business with. They should lift the boat and let you or your surveyor look at it for no charge.
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Kevin
Paul
Perhaps I have not made myself clear. I do not dispute the legality of the issue. I agree that until the final sale it is the broker's boat, and that ulitmately the broker could be held responsible for anything that goes wrong, and should be bonded and insured for such events. The point that I made originally, is that I was in a similar circumstance only recently, and had the presence of mind to speak up and turn the boat over to the representative of the broker, for exactly the same reasons as what happened here. Sure, I could have stayed at the helm (what salesman wants to piss off a customer who he is trying to sell something to?), and if I had grounded the boat, or run into something, I could have most likely have walked away without paying a cent. What I was talking about is more a matter of ethics and common sense, rather than strict legalities. I am a person who tries to live my life by what I think is fair, instead of how I can use legal technicalities to my advantage. When I screw up, which happens from time to time, I feel that I should bite the bullet, rather than to search around for some legal technicality that allows me to put it all on someone else, but that's just me. If this had happened to me, I would have offered to pay for a haul out to take a look at the keel and see what the broker said. Chances are he would have said that there would be no charge. In any event, I would not have a problem paying for the haul out for what I have to believe was my own mistake. End of story.
Perhaps I have not made myself clear. I do not dispute the legality of the issue. I agree that until the final sale it is the broker's boat, and that ulitmately the broker could be held responsible for anything that goes wrong, and should be bonded and insured for such events. The point that I made originally, is that I was in a similar circumstance only recently, and had the presence of mind to speak up and turn the boat over to the representative of the broker, for exactly the same reasons as what happened here. Sure, I could have stayed at the helm (what salesman wants to piss off a customer who he is trying to sell something to?), and if I had grounded the boat, or run into something, I could have most likely have walked away without paying a cent. What I was talking about is more a matter of ethics and common sense, rather than strict legalities. I am a person who tries to live my life by what I think is fair, instead of how I can use legal technicalities to my advantage. When I screw up, which happens from time to time, I feel that I should bite the bullet, rather than to search around for some legal technicality that allows me to put it all on someone else, but that's just me. If this had happened to me, I would have offered to pay for a haul out to take a look at the keel and see what the broker said. Chances are he would have said that there would be no charge. In any event, I would not have a problem paying for the haul out for what I have to believe was my own mistake. End of story.
Agreement
Kevin, I think we have agreed all along. Looking forward to future exchanges. Fair Winds, Paul
Kevin, I think we have agreed all along. Looking forward to future exchanges. Fair Winds, Paul
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Sam from Long Beach
Feedback from the accident sailors
Hey Everybody, thanks for your input. I agree with the people who aptly said that the captain was the broker and that he was responsible for turning over the helm to somebody who never sailed out of Marina Del Rey. He was not watching where an inexperinced customer was steering the boat in a heavily silted up inlet. To be nice guys we paid for a haul out and look. Good news, the bottom was not damaged at all, just a little paint about two feet square on the forward edge of the keel. The broker didn't offer to pay for this. If there was anything serious it would have been on him or else. I appreciated the support of people who indicated that. It griped me that some sailors thought we were trying to have an accident to find some one else to blame. Thats just weird thinking. I am glad this story has a happy ending, as I was thinking I would have a fight with a broker who told me when I didn't want to drive it out, " I am 100% responsible for the boat", but then didn't even offer to pay under $200 to have a look see. Again thanks for really thoughtful insights.
Hey Everybody, thanks for your input. I agree with the people who aptly said that the captain was the broker and that he was responsible for turning over the helm to somebody who never sailed out of Marina Del Rey. He was not watching where an inexperinced customer was steering the boat in a heavily silted up inlet. To be nice guys we paid for a haul out and look. Good news, the bottom was not damaged at all, just a little paint about two feet square on the forward edge of the keel. The broker didn't offer to pay for this. If there was anything serious it would have been on him or else. I appreciated the support of people who indicated that. It griped me that some sailors thought we were trying to have an accident to find some one else to blame. Thats just weird thinking. I am glad this story has a happy ending, as I was thinking I would have a fight with a broker who told me when I didn't want to drive it out, " I am 100% responsible for the boat", but then didn't even offer to pay under $200 to have a look see. Again thanks for really thoughtful insights.
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Kevin
What?
Sam, I was not going to reply to this thread any longer, but that comment our yours "It griped me that some sailors thought we were trying to have an accident to find some one else to blame" just rubbed me the wrong way. I assume that you were talking about my posts, and yet I said no such thing as you imply. Who, in their replies said that you "were trying to have an accident to find someone else to blame"? I did not see such a thing said, and I challenge you to show where it was said. Secondly, unless I am mistaken, you were on the boat yourself, and you, along with your wife allowed this "inexperienced" person to take the helm, and yet you put the "blame" on the captain, as though you were both unable to speak or react in any way. What happened, did someone put tape over your mouths and tie you down so that you were unable to express to the captain that he should bring the boat in, since your wife had not steered a boat into that marina before? "I agree with the people who aptly said that the captain was the broker and that he was responsible for turning over the helm to somebody who never sailed out of Marina Del Rey. He was not watching where an inexperinced customer was steering the boat in a heavily silted up inlet." Yep, that's where I said that you were looking for "someone else to blame". If you knew that your wife had never piloted a boat out of Marina Del Rey, why did YOU allow her to do it without speaking up, and why did she stay at the helm? Not your fault, or your wife's, surely it was all the fault of the captain. I believe that you did the right thing in the end, and am not trying to get into a fight with you. If you had not mis-stated my comments, I would have let it rest, but to go to the length that I implied that you "were trying to have an accident" just does not sit well with me, and I have to respond to that statement. I am glad for everyone involved that it all worked out well. Fair winds to you.
Sam, I was not going to reply to this thread any longer, but that comment our yours "It griped me that some sailors thought we were trying to have an accident to find some one else to blame" just rubbed me the wrong way. I assume that you were talking about my posts, and yet I said no such thing as you imply. Who, in their replies said that you "were trying to have an accident to find someone else to blame"? I did not see such a thing said, and I challenge you to show where it was said. Secondly, unless I am mistaken, you were on the boat yourself, and you, along with your wife allowed this "inexperienced" person to take the helm, and yet you put the "blame" on the captain, as though you were both unable to speak or react in any way. What happened, did someone put tape over your mouths and tie you down so that you were unable to express to the captain that he should bring the boat in, since your wife had not steered a boat into that marina before? "I agree with the people who aptly said that the captain was the broker and that he was responsible for turning over the helm to somebody who never sailed out of Marina Del Rey. He was not watching where an inexperinced customer was steering the boat in a heavily silted up inlet." Yep, that's where I said that you were looking for "someone else to blame". If you knew that your wife had never piloted a boat out of Marina Del Rey, why did YOU allow her to do it without speaking up, and why did she stay at the helm? Not your fault, or your wife's, surely it was all the fault of the captain. I believe that you did the right thing in the end, and am not trying to get into a fight with you. If you had not mis-stated my comments, I would have let it rest, but to go to the length that I implied that you "were trying to have an accident" just does not sit well with me, and I have to respond to that statement. I am glad for everyone involved that it all worked out well. Fair winds to you.
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Sam
Reply to Kevin
Hi Kevin, I was reacting to comment number nine where jokes about getting compensation for whip lash were made. Thanks for you good wishes, I sure you meant well.
Hi Kevin, I was reacting to comment number nine where jokes about getting compensation for whip lash were made. Thanks for you good wishes, I sure you meant well.
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Kevin
Sam
Actually, that comment was not directed towards you. The very fact that you came on here and sought out opinions showed that you were not just out to stick it on someone else. You chose the exact course that I would have chosen in your position. I am sorry, I just have a thing about people screwing up and trying to blame someone else, maybe it comes from the businesss that I am in, and that is what some of the other replies were saying. As I said, I am glad for everyone involved that it all come out well. I sincerely hope that you enjoy your new boat to the fullest.
Actually, that comment was not directed towards you. The very fact that you came on here and sought out opinions showed that you were not just out to stick it on someone else. You chose the exact course that I would have chosen in your position. I am sorry, I just have a thing about people screwing up and trying to blame someone else, maybe it comes from the businesss that I am in, and that is what some of the other replies were saying. As I said, I am glad for everyone involved that it all come out well. I sincerely hope that you enjoy your new boat to the fullest.
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