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Need to open up the top of the jib but the car is all the way back?

Discussion in 'Sail Trim with Don Guillette' started by danstanford, Aug 7, 2017. Add this thread to a FAQ

  1. danstanford

    danstanford

    Joined Aug 2, 2010
    206 posts, 29 likes
    Beneteau 323
    CA Cobourg
    115% foresail with pretty good shape but it medium to light winds I cannot get both sets of telltales to fly together. Moving the jib car way back from that indicated in the owner's manual for medium breezes helps but I can still only trim to one set, upper or lower. Best performance seems to be with the lower telltales streaming well and the uppers pointed up though I can trim to the uppers and the lowers then dance all over the place.
    Trimmed to the lowers, the trailing edge of the job is almost against the shrouds though I have an inboard jib track right against the coach roof. I considered using a block on the toerail but it seems that would really hurt my pointing ability and when racing I need to move through all the points of sail.
    Barber hauler?
     


  2. Don Guillette

    Don Guillette

    Joined May 17, 2004
    1,883 posts, 52 likes
    Other Catalina 30
    US Tucson, AZ
    danstanford: I assume you're sailing closehauled. When sailing closehauled you want to to use the inboard track (on all other points of sail use the outside track) or a baberhauler. I had a track on the cabin top of my C30 but I never could figure out a way to get by the safety lines to utilize that track so I just used a barberhauler, which I rigged up to work of the lazy winch. All the telltales are important but the most important telltales for the jib are the middle ones -- the most important one on the main is the top one. The 115 is not a very big jib and the smaller the jib the tougher it is adjust.
     


  3. Jackdaw

    Jackdaw

    Joined Nov 8, 2010
    8,426 posts, 1,858 likes
    Beneteau First 36.7 & 260
    US Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
    Because the 323 has outboard shrouds the track are well inward and fine. It's easily one of the racier oceanis models; with a figaro based hull and a modern nonoverlapping fractional rig.

    So first some questions.

    Is this the OEM sail, or a new one that is not Neil Pryde?

    How high is the tack from the deck?

    Are you watching both inside and outside telltails? Ideally you have three sets. High med low.

    Ideally you should steer closehauled to your lower ones, and your trimmers job is to get/keep them all flying. You are generally correct, if the top inner us standing up the top is overtrimmed and some twist is needed. Car back 1-2 inches, and then retrim.

    Let me know about the questions.

    My initial guess is that you clew is too high and makes it impossible to get far enough back to create the nessessary angle.
     


    Last edited: Aug 7, 2017
  4. Davidasailor26

    Davidasailor26

    Joined May 17, 2004
    1,065 posts, 162 likes
    Beneteau Oceanis 37 LE
    US Havre de Grace
    Jackdaw, can you clarify this for me? I assumed that "standing up" meant just about to flutter, and that inner meant windward. But If the top windward telltale were fluttering wouldn't that mean the top is luffing and undetrimmed? What do I have wrong?
     


  5. Jackdaw

    Jackdaw

    Joined Nov 8, 2010
    8,426 posts, 1,858 likes
    Beneteau First 36.7 & 260
    US Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
    Sure. An inner telltail standing or cocked 'up' is overtrimmed to almost the
    point of stalling. If you were driving and saw that (pinching) on your lower driving telltails you would turn down to widen the angle.

    On the uppers, the different higher faster breeze is creating a wider AOA (remember that more breeze pushes AWA wider) and that can be fixed with adding twist.
     


  6. danstanford

    danstanford

    Joined Aug 2, 2010
    206 posts, 29 likes
    Beneteau 323
    CA Cobourg
    Thanks a bunch for the feedback, we are just racing in the whitesail fleet but really enjoying the challenges of squeezing the last bit out of a boat I am really enjoying. She is very easy to sail and seemingly hard to get too wrong but I know that she really wakes up when I get all her telltales flying!

    Dan
     


  7. Jackdaw

    Jackdaw

    Joined Nov 8, 2010
    8,426 posts, 1,858 likes
    Beneteau First 36.7 & 260
    US Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
    Great, then these might help. The DW number are meaningless without a spinnaker, but the upwind targets can be a big help!

    http://www.finot.com/bateaux/batproduction/beneteau/oceanis323/polaires/polaires323.htm
     


  8. danstanford

    danstanford

    Joined Aug 2, 2010
    206 posts, 29 likes
    Beneteau 323
    CA Cobourg
    I am printing a copy and taking it to the boat for us to work on. Sadly my wind instrument is one of those Raymarine pretend things with just a tab on one of the cups to determine wind direction, I have yet to see it agree with the windex at the top of my mast!
    To confirm, the wind angles shown are apparent and the wind speeds true?
    Thanks again,
    Dan
     


  9. Jackdaw

    Jackdaw

    Joined Nov 8, 2010
    8,426 posts, 1,858 likes
    Beneteau First 36.7 & 260
    US Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
    All are TRUE

    and yes the rotovectas suck!
     


  10. Joe

    Joe

    Joined Jun 1, 2004
    6,342 posts, 284 likes
    Catalina 27
    US Mission Bay, San Diego
    Instead of driving the boat to it's tightest AWA, thinking that it means you're pointing higher.... watch your compass course and boat speed. Studying the polars will help your determine which angle and speed will give you best VMG.... and that's important.
    If you keep track of your compass courses sailing close hauled, you can determine your True Wind Direction... and thus, angle... by averaging the port and starboard tack readings. It also helps you determine wind shifts...
    To me a tactical compass and a good set of tell tales are way more important than a windex at the masthead.
    Knowing your boat's true wind abilities will help you make intelligent tactical decisions.
     


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