Need help with "Last Hurrah" boat - 411/393 issues?

[bugbitten]

I've just turned 70 and am shopping for a boat I can sail on the Chesapeake, but, more importantly, I want to be able to sail it from the Hampton Roads, VA, area to the Bahamas and perhaps further into the Caribbean. I'm hoping to avoid the ICW as much as possible. I mostly solo sail, but will have a seasoned crew for any offshore work. I like both the 393s and the 411s, particularly as they are roughly in my price range. I want a boat that's relatively simple to sail, so I'm sticking with a furling main. I'm leaning toward a two-cabin 411 as the better solution, but would be happy with either boat, so I'm focusing on just getting the best example I can find. I'm looking primarily for forum input on any issues I should be on the lookout for. Some input, too, on engine choices would be helpful. I lean toward "bigger is better" and like Yanmars, but a lot of the 411s come with engines rated around 40HP. Does anyone feel that's underpowered?
I've owned a 30 foot S2 for the last eight years, so this will be a big step up. I've done a ton of DIY upgrades to that, so I'm pretty good at spotting trouble areas generally, but have no Beneteau-specific knowledge, other than maybe updated thru-hulls are a good idea.
Thanks.
John

 

[Benny17441]

There is a maxim that says get a boat and equipment that is adequate for 80% of your intended sailing. For the other 20% just make do, rent what needed, borrow, unload or fabricate. A 40' boat is just too big for a Bay solo sailer. Size alone does not make for an offshore passage maker and a 40' production boat may need just as much improvements as a 30 footer. My ideal boat for what you describe would be in the 32' to 34' size. With the extra budget I would nicely upgrade the navigation and communication electronics, the rigging, pumps and safety equipment.

 

[bugbitten]

I'm actually toying with keeping the S2 in case the 40 foot Beneteau isn't fun soloing on the Bay. My primary intention with this new boat is to be able to do some offshore, a few months at a time, with three or four folks aboard (including myself) and my dog. I want something roomy, something that'll hold a lot of gear, with a scoop transom to offload the dog easily, and I want it to be reasonably comfortable in decent seas. A friend just bought a Caliber 33, which made me consider their 35, which is the same boat with the scoop stern, but I think, when there are other folks aboard, having two cabins and two heads would be a major plus. Given my age, I'd also like a boat I could turn around and sell relatively easily in a few years. I think a 40 foot Beneteau would probably fill the bill.

 

[John Nantz]

John - your idea of a bigger boat is along the lines of what we've been though. Got our H35 years ago after a big move up from a 16ft day sailer. Had the option to get a (used but like new) Jenneau 41 back then but it was over our budget, as was the (new) 35, but anyway .... We still have the H35 because, bang-for-the-buck it has been the best, and the incremental cost for the larger boat can't be justified based on usage.

Furling main: One of the things that bothers me with the larger boats is the inability to reef the main easily. We have a full-batten main and it is easy to reef it via slab reefing and being able to wrap my arm around the boom to avoid being knocked over. All the larger 40+ boats seem to have their booms up too heigh in order to be able to do that, and the other problem is most of them have a furling main (read: furler problems, flapping leach, and smaller sail area for the height of the mast). While there are a lot of proponents for a furling main, I am old school with this view.

Sugar scoop transom: That can be a mixed bag. Bringing the inflatable up to the stern for going from one boat to the dingy is not necessarily easy How dose one keep the dingy up close to the stern without it moving away when going from one to the other? Are there handholds on the stern to grab ahold of? In some ways a more vertical walk-through stern might be better. Our boat was one of the early adopters of the walk-through transom and has a boarding ladder so this is an area I've dealt with a lot and my significant other isn't a gymnast so keeping the Avon up close to the ladder is important and I've come up with some work-arounds over the years. With 40ºF-somethng water one doesn't really want to get their feet wet if it can be helped.

Double cabin and head layout: That would be a plus for personal privacy so the 40-footer would be good in that department. Ditto for storage; however, charter-type boats tend not to be laid out for that. We take a lot of "stuff" along on our boat, never been able to change that and part of that is my own fault. Tools, spares, you name it, we've got it. I have yet to raise the boot stripe though.

Anchor system: Going short-handed or with newbies, this would be one to sort out.
Would the smaller boat, with less draft, be easier to duck into the ICW in the event one needs to?
Watermaker?
Analogy: We used to live in a very rural area with forests and lots of wildlife. Nearly every coworker drove a 4X4 pickup and I bought a 2-wheel drive pickup. Got lots of comments about the 2WD and one of the guys came to my support saying "A 4WD just gets you more stuck." In some ways, that rational might be applicable to a bigger boat.

Great bucket-list idea and don't wait too long! The saying goes, "You'll regret more the things you didn't do than the one's you did." Also, another one I like where we did contract administration is "A good letter today is better than a perfect letter tomorrow" and that could apply to doing bucket-list items, too, by just changing a few words.

 

[bugbitten]

These thoughts are all much appreciated. Beneteau makes a center cockpit boat with more of the sort of transom you're talking about, I think. I've yet to see one in person, but I should check them out.
I know the mast furling main is a major compromise, but I think my being able to stay in the cockpit as much as possible is worth the trade off. I use slab reefing on the S2, and lazy jacks, and I really have to be up and at the mast more than I'd like. I'd much rather a boom furler, but good luck finding those on a boat that meets my other requirements. I've got a very experienced sailing pal who has a Hunter about your size. They opted for the in-mast furling and swear it's the best decision they ever made. They use the boat more often, in a wider range of conditions, than they had before with a typical reefing set up.
As always, it's a question of trade offs. If I get a couple of good seasons in the Caribbean with this, I'll feel it's worth it. I know I'll be rattling around much of the time, but when folks do come visit, everyone will be reasonably comfy.
Oh, I did look at a Hunter 386, (and a 410, for that matter). It's a nice boat, but the companionway stairs would be just about impossible for my pitbull to use. The stairs in the B411 are just about ideal. Again, trade offs, but fairly small things can be a big deal, I think, when you're on board for months at a time.

 

[NYSail]

My wife and I just moved up from the boat of our dreams; a Pearson 36-2.. completely re-fit the boat over 10 years and had a few other items we were going to put into it however we found ourselves really loving to cruise more than just weekends so the problem we ran into was tankage. We searched for a new boat and ended up with a 2005 Beneteau 423. The tankage on this boat is fantastic and is more than double in every respect over our Pearson. So while the smaller boat was beautifully equipped very comfortable room for my wife and I it just could not compare with the bigger boat. Also I find that our new boat is easily single-handed. With a modern auto pilot in mast furling, an electric winch, bow thruster, it’s very easy to take care of things alone...... though I do much rather have my wife with me....

Good luck!
Greg

 

[bugbitten]

Thanks, Greg. I've been told that the 411 and 423 share the same hull. I've been impressed with their PHRFs! We cruisers never race, until we see another sail coming up behind us.
I actually put a Lewmar bow thruster in my S2 myself, and have researched putting them in Beneteaus. Having that forward head seems to make it problematic on many models, although I've seen them on 423s and 393s. I figure that's something I can sort out once I'm back Stateside. I'm actually thinking about pulling out all the stops and putting in a Dutch hydraulic thruster. It's pricey, but requires no tunnel, and adding a stern thruster is only about a buck or so, since you use the same pump.
I like the tankage on these 40' Beneteaus, although I wouldn't mind carrying a bit more fuel.
John

 

[NYSail]

In regards to the fuel, I plan to eventually get a water maker the convert the aft water tank (50 gallons) into a fuel tank doubling the fuel on the boat.

 

[Paul Mermelstein]

John:
I am in my late sixties and have owned a B393 for 13 years. I sail it all over the Chesapeake Bay and Delaware Bay and was just down in your area a couple of weeks ago. I have two cabins and two heads, furling main and genoa, and the larger Yanmar 55 HP engine. Also put in a Gori folding prop. The boat is very easy to handle from the cockpit. The small loss of main sail area (compared to full batten classic main) is not an issue, especially since the B393 (and 411) are powered more from the genny, which is much larger than the main. Reefing is not an issue, since both sails are furling. It is a very comfortable boat and sails very well. I can easily do 7 kts on a beam reach and have done more occasionally. The draft is about 5.5' and the mast is less than 55' above H2O so bridges on the ICW are not a problem if you need to take it. I think your focus on these two Beneteaus is appropriate for your needs.

 

[bugbitten]

In regards to the fuel, I plan to eventually get a water maker the convert the aft water tank (50 gallons) into a fuel tank doubling the fuel on the boat.

Thanks, Greg. I think your plan makes a ton of sense and I may touch base with you if I get to that point.
John

 

[bugbitten]

John:
I am in my late sixties and have owned a B393 for 13 years. I sail it all over the Chesapeake Bay and Delaware Bay and was just down in your area a couple of weeks ago. I have two cabins and two heads, furling main and genoa, and the larger Yanmar 55 HP engine. Also put in a Gori folding prop. The boat is very easy to handle from the cockpit. The small loss of main sail area (compared to full batten classic main) is not an issue, especially since the B393 (and 411) are powered more from the genny, which is much larger than the main. Reefing is not an issue, since both sails are furling. It is a very comfortable boat and sails very well. I can easily do 7 kts on a beam reach and have done more occasionally. The draft is about 5.5' and the mast is less than 55' above H2O so bridges on the ICW are not a problem if you need to take it. I think your focus on these two Beneteaus is appropriate for your needs.

Thanks, Paul. I think I'll be very happy with either a 393 or 411, and I appreciate your reinforcing that. The bigger engine has a lot of appeal, and they seem to be found more often on the 393s. I drag a sailing buddy along with me to kick keels whenever I can. We were both very impressed with a 393 we looked at last week. I like to look at boats, period, and I try to see as many as I can when seriously shopping. Usually one will then just jump out as the best of the lot. Unfortunately, my buyer's broker has been so busy, it's pulling teeth getting visits scheduled. He doesn't like it when I contact the other broker directly! Let me know if you're down this way (or down to Deltaville, I'm there a lot with my pal) and need a creaky addition to your crew.

John

 

[bugbitten]

I looked at two 411s this week. I had a very knowledgable Beneteau broker with me and he had some words of wisdom I'd like to double-check with forum members. He said that Beneteau changed the formula for gelcoat in 2001 and part of 2002, and that the boats built then have a lot more gelcoat issues as a result. The two 411s were just a few miles apart. The 2000 had very good gelcoat, while the 2001 had lots of cracking, especially around the stanchions. This was obviously too small a sample to prove anything, but do folks feel his opinion on this is correct?
The other problem area he said to watch for was the skylights on the 393 (and, I think, on the 423). He said they tend to leak eventually and the only real solution is to replace them, a fairly pricey proposition. Does this sound right?
Regardless, I still have the hots for these boats, especially the 411.
Thanks.
John

 

[Bob S]

He's right on the skylights although mine hasn't leaked. We're in our third season. Not sure if the original owner had to deal with it. I have a 2003 and haven't seen any gelcoat issues other than minor chips from 16 years of use. There is a Yahoo 393 group you might want to join. lots of info there. Not sure on the 411. I moved up from a Catalina 30 to the 393. I think the boat handle quite well. I also have the 54hp Yanmar. At first I was a bit intimidated but found it easier to handle than my 30.
Good luck, it's fun kicking the tires but does take a lot of time.

 

[bugbitten]

Thanks, Bob. You or someone else on the forum had recommended the Yahoo 393 group. I checked it out, but it seemed like you needed to own a 393 to be a member, and you couldn't see much of anything otherwise. I may try it again.

John