Need help, 87 H23 with Francespar mast

[BradH23]

So I recently bought an 87 H23. I've owned 3 other sailboats and I have never encountered the following: my mast has some major rake the likes I have never seen. The uppers won't go taunt at all. They have 4" of play and the turnbuckles are maxed. They register a 12 on a loos gauge. The lowers are currently at around 10 percent at about 3/4 of the turnbuckles. So they could go tighter. And the forestay is currently at about 15 percent/500 lbs on a loose gauge, but probably could go tighter. The backstay is at about 4 percent. But nothing increases the tension on the uppers. What's going on here? I was going to order new standing rigging from Jean but i don't know why my uppers won't tune and why the upper part of the mast is a banana. Thanks for all responses

 

[P100D]

Is the Forestay connected correctly in the anchor well? No extensions or such added? That does seem to be a lot of bend. Once properly tensioned should lessen. Has the mast been shortened due to a "raising accident" causing all the rigging to be off. Just 2 things that pop into my head. I have the same mast and can measure some things if you would like for comparison. Just let me know what you want. I replaced all my rigging last winter. Pretty cheap to do surprisingly.

 

[BradH23]

Thanks for replying. Yes the forestay is rigged properly and connected down in the anchor well. The most puzzling part is how most of the rigging will go into normal range but the upper shrouds are as Loose as can be. I've read through probably 50 different post and did see where some people had upper mast bend very similar to mine but did not have any type of upper shroud problem. This is just a huge mystery to me. It doesn't make sense that all the other rigging will tighten but the uppers won't get anything near within normal range. I don't know if the mast has been shorten, but if it was shorten that much I would presume the lowers would be slack too. If you ever have time to measure from your mast foot to the bottom of the mast winch bracket we can compare to see. Thanks again.

 

[P100D]

I will measure that Friday for you.

 

[P100D]

I may have my rigging measurements still somewhere but I'll have to look for that

 

[BradH23]

I'm hoping someone will figure out the mystery of why the shrouds are too long but if no one does, what is everybody's opinion on me shortening them and using a Sta-lock stud, just so I can figure out what a good length is for a replacement?

 

[isaksp00]

Can you get any background from the previous owner?

 

[BradH23]

I asked him. He wasn't very helpful. I don't think he realized that they were so loose. He only had the boat for less than a year. Before him, the owner was in Florida. I'm in SC.

 

[pateco]

Either the forestay is too long or too loose. From this picture you can see that The whole mast is tilted backwards along with having the extra bend.

I would loosen the lowers and the back stay. Straighten the mast with the forestay, and then re-tune.

 

[BradH23]

I was thinking the same. I was reading today that someone had their forestay at 900. I wasn't sure how tight I should go. It's currently at 500 or 600 if I recall correctly.

 

[isaksp00]

Maybe take a photo of how the forestay is attached at the bow.

 

[BradH23]

Maybe take a photo of how the forestay is attached at the bow.

It's attached like the diagram.

 

[isaksp00]

How much room do you have in the forestay turnbuckle to adjust? Assuming you have a hanked on jib and not a furler. Can that turnbuckle be tightened and are there any extensions or tangs there? It looks like if you tightened the forestay (shortened it) it might reduce the mast rake which might allow the uppers to get tight.

 

[BradH23]

I can't remember, but I think I may be over half or up to 3/4. It's storming here daily so the first clear evening, I'm going to see if that does anything to the uppers. Thx

 

[isaksp00]

When you get to the boat put a weight of some sort on the main halyard to make sort of a plumb bob. Lower it to just above the boom and measure how far away from mast it is, with the boat level (floating). I forgot what it is supposed to be - maybe 4 or 5 inches? See if specified in the manual in the downloads here. If it is a lot more than that you likely have an issue with the forestay. Backstay shouldn't be tight when you do this. I actually don't make my backstay too tight at all, I think that in the 23 with swept spreaders it is the side stays that support the mast and not so much the backstay.

 

[BradH23]

When you get to the boat put a weight of some sort on the main halyard to make sort of a plumb bob. Lower it to just above the boom and measure how far away from mast it is, with the boat level (floating). I forgot what it is supposed to be - maybe 4 or 5 inches? See if specified in the manual in the downloads here. If it is a lot more than that you likely have an issue with the forestay. Backstay shouldn't be tight when you do this. I actually don't make my backstay too tight at all, I think that in the 23 with swept spreaders it is the side stays that support the mast and not so much the backstay.

I've done that and it is probably (by sightjng) 14 to 18 inches. I've read on here where other have had similar crazy mast bend.

 

[isaksp00]

Unless you have the sidestays or backstay tensioned, that would be rake not bend. When Crazy Dave is back, he is the expert, and also jackdaw seems to know all the specs for these boats. But that seems way too much, so mast is raked back too far (I'd say).
I raise my mast and leave the stays a bit loose, and tighten the forestay (I happen to have a furler, but it acts as a turnbuckle so it is the same principle) until the halyard is maybe 4 or 5 inches back. Well, I just do it by "feel" now and seeing how far in the furler drum has been turned, but the rake would be about the same. The forestay adjustment alone (others not tight) should let you get the mast less raked, if not, something seems to be wrong with forestay (maybe a prev owner ordered a replacement and it is too long?).
If you can get it more vertical, then adjust your uppers so the mast is centered sideways by using a long tape measure pulled up with the main halyard, measuring to (say) the chain plates on either side to ensure it is the same length thus centered. You have a Loos; I don't but I just tighten them so it "feels tight" and when I pull on it the shroud moves maybe an inch at most, keeping it centered. I don't pay too much attention to bend, but the tautness of the uppers should push the spreaders forward and cause the mast to bend (curve) a bit. If you got the forestay right then you should be able to adjust the uppers like that. If that works, then tighten the lowers and put your head right up against the rear side of the mast base and sight up the track - it is pretty easy to see when it is straight or the center is pulled to one side. Use the lowers to get it straight; I can't give advice on Loos tension as I don't have one. I then tighten the backstay, but even when mine is turned all the way tight it isn't really taut.
Others may have a different approach and maybe someone can identify how far out the main halyard should actually be when raked properly. I'd guess you would have really strong weather helm if it is tilted back that far.

 

[Jackdaw]

I’ll give this some more thought when I can read the entire thread, I’m reading this on my phone on the boat right now.

But there would have to be a ridiculous amount of rake (if that was the cause) for the turn buckles not to adjust into range. Take a look at your vertical shrouds now - are they indeed vertical (meeting are they running straight up or angle backor angle in?)

It’s a longshot but spreaders can also affect this. If they are too short, or angled way up or way down. They should be angled slightly up, and the spreader tip should be exactly the same distance from the mast as the shroud base at the chain plate

 

[BradH23]

So here is the update. I went this morning and loosen the back stay back out to only ¼ of the stud in the turnbuckle. Then maxed the forestay, then the uppers. My uppers did tighten about 6 more on a loos gauge to about 4 percent, but still not tight enough. I took before and after pictures and there no difference in the rake and mast bend. I don't get it. Now, there is a backstay adjuster that I thought of taking off.

 

[P100D]

I will be at ours tomorrow for that measurement