Minnesota!

[LakeShark]

Just wondering how many other Minnesota C22 sailors we have out there. I figured since it's cold and the lakes are frozen with snow on them that a few of us might be out there dreaming about warmer days. So if your in the frozen north where are you (north central South east or west) and where is your favorite lake to sail on. We are after all the land of 10,000 lakes.

 

[cb32863]

We have a number of C22's at Wayzata Yacht Club. A few "regular" and a pretty good number of Capri's. You ever consider racing? Where you at?

 

[LakeShark]

I am located in the south eastern corner of the state (one of the only counties with no lake). Typically I sail on Pepin and I have contemplated trying my hand at racing this year with the wife and kids as crew. Not to be competitive but just to have fun with other sailors and further introduce my kids to the sport. There is a small group on the WI side of the lake that has open races with a very reasonable entry fee. As a family man on a limited income regular membership to a yacht club is just out of my grasp at this stage in life. I am mostly looking for other C22 sailors to hang out with and sail along side in more a casual friend / club type format. Hey perhaps you should consider starting a C22 fleet in Wayzata if you already have an active racing scene.

 

[cb32863]

We currently have 9 different fleets with most of the Capri's in PHRF-II, non-spinnaker. If a fleet wants to go one design they want them to fly the spinnaker. Fun racing is an awesome way to get your kids in to it. Having fun with a little friendly competition. Haven't been to Pepin yet myself but know someone with a Catalina 25 there. Might see ya out there!

 

[Leeward Rail]

I'm not sure how many C22s are in the Manitoba, NW Ontario, or North Dakota, in addition to your Minnesota boats, but I think it would be fantastic to have as many as possible, participate in the LOWISA on Lake of the Woods.

 

[Jackdaw]

With what; 15000 of them made over 20 years, there are lots of them around ranging in price from +$10K to free. So you see them everywhere, and I know of at least two on every single metro lake.

30+ years ago I owned a C22 and kept it on Lake Waconia, even though I lived in Arden Hills. The cost at the marina was reasonable, people friendly, and the lake is a very decent place to sail.

 

[Leeward Rail]

Yet there are no active fleets in region 7 of the C22 National Association.

People don't like being in clubs ?
Don't have the time required for clubs ?
The C22 NSA appears to mainly focus on racing, which many people could care less about ?
Not sure what's up with that.

Is Minnesota, similar to Manitoba, where there was a huge number of sailboats in use in the 70/80's, with active clubs all over, and a slow decline in interest ?

 

[Jackdaw]

Well part of the issue is all the lakes. It scatters boats all over, with 1/2/3 at each lake. In places with fewer lakes, boats tend to have congigrate.

Fleets work better when lots of boats are one lake.

Racing in MN tends to focus on fast planing scows, or One Designs like J22 and J24, where the first fleet for each were in MN.

Plus the C22 race without spinnakers, which seems silly to most racers.

 

[EditorC22NSA]

I'm not sure how many C22s are in the Manitoba, NW Ontario, or North Dakota, in addition to your Minnesota boats, but I think it would be fantastic to have as many as possible, participate in the LOWISA on Lake of the Woods.

There are at least a half dozen Catalina 22s owners who are also members of the C22NSA from MN and another half dozen from WI. Like many other One Design Classes, the popularity of a Class is often geographically based. The Catalina 22 is a popular Class in the Southeast, Florida, Texas, California and Washington/Oregon. In your part of the country, other Classes were well established decades ago and people have gravitated to what was/is popular in your area. Your LOWISA sounds like a fun regatta...wish it were closer. It is 15 hours away from my home in Indianapolis, and at least 20-25 hours away from locations where a large number of Catalina 22 races are located. Plus, I think the LOWISA requires use of a spinnaker, and the Catalina 22 class races Genoa, and Spinnaker to a lesser extent. By using a Genoa with a 12 foot whisker pole, and being a masthead configuration, the spinnaker doesn't provide that much of an incremental advantage...but that could vary based on length of W/L courses. If you're serious about trying to attract Catalina 22s to the LOWISA, there might be possibility for the Club to host a future Catalina 22 National Championship Regatta as a way to showcase the Class and attract area Catalina 22 owners to racing. That's another entire discussion thread on its own. Good luck!

 

[EditorC22NSA]

Well part of the issue is all the lakes. It scatters boats all over, with 1/2/3 at each lake. In places with fewer lakes, boats tend to have congigrate.

Fleets work better when lots of boats are one lake.

Racing in MN tends to focus on fast planing scows, or One Designs like J22 and J24, where the first fleet for each were in MN.

Plus the C22 race without spinnakers, which seems silly to most racers.

Jackdaw...why don't you bring your Catalina 22 to a future Catalina 22 sanctioned event, and you will see we have just as much fun racing without a spinnaker. Actually, Catalina 22s do race spinnakers...it's in the Class Rules, and we also have a Catalina 22 Spinnaker Championship. The Catalina 22 Class promotes family participation. A non-spinnaker event encourages family inclusion rather than non-inclusion.

 

[Jackdaw]

There are at least a half dozen Catalina 22s owners who are also members of the C22NSA from MN and another half dozen from WI. Like many other One Design Classes, the popularity of a Class is often geographically based. The Catalina 22 is a popular Class in the Southeast, Florida, Texas, California and Washington/Oregon. In your part of the country, other Classes were well established decades ago and people have gravitated to what was/is popular in your area. Your LOWISA sounds like a fun regatta...wish it were closer. It is 15 hours away from my home in Indianapolis, and at least 20-25 hours away from locations where a large number of Catalina 22 races are located. Plus, I think the LOWISA requires use of a spinnaker, and the Catalina 22 class races Genoa, and Spinnaker to a lesser extent. By using a Genoa with a 12 foot whisker pole, and being a masthead configuration, the spinnaker doesn't provide that much of an incremental advantage...but that could vary based on length of W/L courses. If you're serious about trying to attract Catalina 22s to the LOWISA, there might be possibility for the Club to host a future Catalina 22 National Championship Regatta as a way to showcase the Class and attract area Catalina 22 owners to racing. That's another entire discussion thread on its own. Good luck!

I agree with most of this, but not the part of about the difference between a pooled out 150 and a spinnaker. The area of a spin is at least twice the area of a genoa, and the ability to present the LUFF to the wind, as opposed to the leach, makes it much more efficient.

I do totally get the inclusiveness part. At WYC our PHRF-2 (non spin) is twice the size of the spin fleet, due mostly because a non-spin boat can always sail with just a crew of two.

One BlueJ sail with a crew of 4, 5 if its breezy. The right 3 on lighter days. Half of my job as skipper is crew Managment and development.

 

[EditorC22NSA]

I agree with most of this, but not the part of about the difference between a pooled out 150 and a spinnaker. The area of a spin is at least twice the area of a genoa, and the ability to present the LUFF to the wind, as opposed to the leach, makes it much more efficient.

I do totally get the inclusiveness part. At WYC our PHRF-2 (non spin) is twice the size of the spin fleet, due mostly because a non-spin boat can always sail with just a crew of two.

Yes...I agree, spinnaker offers more sail area...and certainly more speed. But the benefit of not making it as "standard" has helped to keep the Class more accessible to the C22NSA membership. And nowadays, participation is key. Thanks!

 

[Jackdaw]

Jackdaw...why don't you bring your Catalina 22 to a future Catalina 22 sanctioned event, and you will see we have just as much fun racing without a spinnaker. Actually, Catalina 22s do race spinnakers...it's in the Class Rules, and we also have a Catalina 22 Spinnaker Championship. The Catalina 22 Class promotes family participation. A non-spinnaker event encourages family inclusion rather than non-inclusion.

Thanks for the offer, but I sold my C22 some 25 years ago! Loved that little sucker.

I know that there is a C22 spin class, but IIRC the National Championship is non-spin, and only a fraction of the boats sail in the separate spin race.

All racing is fun. Some forms just more fun than others. Boats are much faster going downwind with kites, and it adds elements of technique and strategy that does not exist in JAM (jib and main) racing. Given my personal choice, I'll always to that.

 

[Jackdaw]

Yes...I agree, spinnaker offers more sail area...and certainly more speed. But the benefit of not making it as "standard" has helped to keep the Class more accessible to the C22NSA membership. And nowadays, participation is key. Thanks!

That's very clear. The C22NSA clearly has the right formula for the boat and a lot of its owners. C22 people tend to buy the boat first, and then some look at how they might race it. Thats opposite to the way most racers do it; where they look at the local scene and boats and get what's locally hot.

 

[Justin_NSA]

We are after all the land of 10,000 lakes.

I have always been curious if anyone ever actually counted them.

 

[LakeShark]

Wow fellas i was just looking for a few new friends to sail with. Generally everyone I know with a boat in MN has either a Pontoon or a fishing boat of some sort. Well since I started this I thought I should add a few comments. lets go in reverse order.

I have always been curious if anyone ever actually counted them.

Quoted from the DNR (I assume they should know how many lakes there are)
"Although nicknames the "Land of 10,000 Lakes, the state has 11,842 lakes that are 10 acres or larger according to Minnesota's Department of Natural Resources. Depending on the definition used to measure a lake, the number can go up, due to including lakes that are smaller than 10 acres."

Although I will say that in Minnesota we often use the term lake loosely as many of the lakes are too shallow for sailing in.

That's very clear. The C22NSA clearly has the right formula for the boat and a lot of its owners. C22 people tend to buy the boat first, and then some look at how they might race it. Thats opposite to the way most racers do it; where they look at the local scene and boats and get what's locally hot.

Jackdraw I agree that racing is fun no matter what type of boat your in and that having a large kite billowing out in front of the boat is great fun. That being said some of us have younger crews (mine age 7-11) who are rather inexperienced at putting up such a sail or taking it down. I have only flown one a few times for fun and once in a race long ago when I was in High school. I enjoy the fact that the association has a class for the more novice racer. It makes me feel as though I could be more competitive even if its just a feeling.

On the topic of racing I have a question that I have never found a great answer to. With the goal of most races being participation why are the costs so high for entering. Most yacht clubs charge $100 + for the entry fee (non member) for even a single day of racing. For the novice like myself I am not interested in earning points, having my name on a trophy, or some cash prize rather I am just looking for a good time where win or loose I make a few new sailing contacts. Why not lower the entry fee to $20 or so knowing that your place will not count in the standings for the series. I understand the high cost for multi day races like the LOWISA or the Leach Lake Regatta but for a local club race on a Saturday afternoon? Perhaps its just the cheep side of me talking.

Finally,

Well part of the issue is all the lakes. It scatters boats all over, with 1/2/3 at each lake. In places with fewer lakes, boats tend to have congigrate.

Fleets work better when lots of boats are one lake.

Racing in MN tends to focus on fast planing scows, or One Designs like J22 and J24, where the first fleet for each were in MN.

Plus the C22 race without spinnakers, which seems silly to most racers.

This is what really gets me. You are correct that we are spread out all over and that there are a number of boats on each lake so why isn't there any casual boating clubs out there particularly since most of us in the north have trailers for our boats. I used to sail with Hobie Fleet 444 for a time on Pepin and it was great. Just a bunch of Cats on the lake having a good time with the occasional BBQ. It was a great time that did not cost too much and built awareness of sailing and supported camaraderie and friendships.

I started this post to attempt to do the same for the Catalina. I may try my hand at racing at some point this year, though the LOWISA is out because of scheduling issues, but I am interested in just finding a good group of like minded trailer sailors out there to hang out with. You know a group of people with similar interests that want to get together on one of the more than 10,000 lakes for a day sail and if an impromptu race breaks out great but not required and nothing is won or lost but a smile.

So How about it anyone out there who sails in MN that is interested in the same thing? No set schedules, requirements etc... just a group of sailors who want to have a good time.

 

[shemandr]

I'll bite on the participation question: $100/race is a bit rich even around here. More typically its $60, but it depends on if the fee includes an after race party. Trophies have to be paid for - and nice trophies engender participation.
For our club races the entry fee is $20 and that is up from $10 it used to be. It was raised to encourage people to join our club which is something like $60. If you are a member, the 5 races we run are free. There is no registration necessary. You just show up. But if you cross the line sometime around the start you are counted as having started the race. So you can't drop out to avoid paying the $20, if you're not doing well. If you start, that race counts for series scoring.
Besides joining our association you need to get a PHRF certificate. That's another $20. I really think they should lower that because there is little cost involved. Even with the pizza and beer for the meetings (Which they more than earn.)
I think the biggest barrier to more participation is us. Egos. No one wants to find out they stink. And, many skippers struggle, some for years. They are challenged by the expense of running a competitive campaign, finding and retaining crew, preparation of the boat (Haul crap off and on), clean the bottom etc. And yet in PHRF racing the rating assumes, or demands that your boat be prepared with a high degree of competitive effort. In the famous words of the late John Lockwood, "If the same three guys always get the trophies, pretty soon they will be the only ones coming out for the race."
This relates back to the fleet handicapper. If the same boats are always winning they need to be adjusted so that it is more competitive. This can be a hard thing to do. And some say - they are the best sailors, why shouldn't they win? Yes, it's true they are often the best sailors. But in Golf there are handicaps that recognize that golfers have differing abilities but they still need to be able to compete on an equal footing - or they won't play. We have instituted a "Golf Handicap" system of PHRF penalties for the winning boats. I wish I could say it is a runaway success. I think it's helpful for participation but it hasn't grown the fleet by 30%. There are still a goodly number of boats which sail Wed PM, when we have no scoring, who stay in their slips for the scored races. My best explanation is that they simply don't want to come out a mix it up when a score will be kept.

 

[Leeward Rail]

For the novice like myself I am not interested in earning points, having my name on a trophy, or some cash prize rather I am just looking for a good time where win or loose I make a few new sailing contacts.

....why isn't there any casual boating clubs out there particularly since most of us in the north have trailers for our boats. I used to sail with Hobie Fleet 444 for a time on Pepin and it was great. Just a bunch of Cats on the lake having a good time with the occasional BBQ. It was a great time that did not cost too much and built awareness of sailing and supported camaraderie and friendships.

This is exactly what got me into sailing, and eventually racing, back in the early 80's
A bunch of Sol Cats, Hobies, etc. racing all over the area. Small clubs would host and we'd tow the boats all over the place.
Alas, that has died out on our side of the border. We have a bunch of clubs that have keel boats for both serious and informal beer can racing, many of which are sailors who grew up with those races decades ago. I don't know of any "informal" racing for mixed dinghies + beach cats etc. locally.
I have no idea how the local clubs expect to attract younger members who don't know someone with a keelboat, or simply are willing to take a risk and buy one.

I started this post to attempt to do the same for the Catalina. I may try my hand at racing at some point this year, though the LOWISA is out because of scheduling issues, but I am interested in just finding a good group of like minded trailer sailors out there to hang out with. You know a group of people with similar interests that want to get together on one of the more than 10,000 lakes for a day sail and if an impromptu race breaks out great but not required and nothing is won or lost but a smile.

I plan on sailing in the Lowisa with our C22, but I could care less about my racing result. (I could care less about sailboat racing in general now) Like many, I see it simply as a great way to spend a week sailing on Lake of the Woods, with BBQs, campfires, etc. on shore.
Some people still do it in open daysailors (gear is hauled in a support boat if needed), some people in keelboats... While it's technically a race... it was meant, from day one, over 50 years ago, as a way to promote the Lake and thereby help the businesses on it.

For those of us who just want to go sailing, the C22 NSA, has some great "cruises", on the Great lakes, or the Gulf Coast etc., but through no fault of the C22 NSA, for midwesterners, they involve days of towing to get there.
That's fine for people if it fits their schedule, but it would be awesome to find C22 owners within a weekend's distance.

It looks like my reply ended up hijacking the thread, which was definitely not my intention.
I too would love to find some C22 cruising types where I could haul the boat to their lake, and experience a new location and camaraderie with fellow trailer sailors. Racing to the anchorage, dock for lunch, or the navigation mark is optional.

 

[Jackdaw]

Very interesting discussion!
Some thoughts.

First, nowadays, due to limits on free time, most boats of all types tend to race on one lake, and maybe once or twice a year travel to an 'away regatta' if they are trailerable. Its just too hard to move boats. Too much time. So you only travel for big races. Most stay at clubs/marina for fast access.

Quality racing costs
If you want a quality race, its going to cost. People, boats, gas, etc etc.
A good rule of thumb is to figure it should cost what you'd expect to pay for a round of golf, based on your ability. If that seems to much, then you're simply looking for the wrong thing.

At WYC a membership cost a boat owner $400. But that includes 50 races, so 8 bucks a shot. And that includes national-level quality race managment, with a committee boat, a mark boat, a salaried PRO and 4 race officers. And all the beer you can drink after each race. Its a good deal.

The Cat22s at WYC all sail in the non-spin class. Its a fun group. One does pretty well, the others not so much. They have fun, but they would get hammered if they came up to the spin class. Its just impossible to get serous good racers into that group, so they never get better.

 

[LakeShark]

For those of us who just want to go sailing, the C22 NSA, has some great "cruises", on the Great lakes, or the Gulf Coast etc., but through no fault of the C22 NSA, for midwesterners, they involve days of towing to get there.
That's fine for people if it fits their schedule, but it would be awesome to find C22 owners within a weekend's distance.

It looks like my reply ended up hijacking the thread, which was definitely not my intention.
I too would love to find some C22 cruising types where I could haul the boat to their lake, and experience a new location and camaraderie with fellow trailer sailors. Racing to the anchorage, dock for lunch, or the navigation mark is optional.

Leeward you hit the nail on the head there. It would be great to find just a group of guys within a few hours drive that could get together for the afternoon. I would be far more willing to make the drive for an overnight on Mille lacs, Superior, Wayzata, etc... if I knew there would be a few others out there. No worries on Hijacking the thread or anything I think this has started an interesting conversation.

Jackdraw
I appreciate what yacht clubs like WYC do for the sport and you club in particular has a stellar reputation in the twin cities. However WYC like many clubs LCYC, SCYC etc.. seem to be cost prohibitive for the new comer like myself. The $400 for membership does not include the $400 one time fee for the first year and while even at $800 for the first year at 50 races it is still only $16 a race; for the weekend warrior like myself that is more times than my boat will even hit the water in a year. I am doing great if I get out 6-8 times in a year due to other obligations during the summer. I understand that racing costs and that there is tremendous value in what WYC and others do however it just becomes cost prohibitive. Even a novice golfer in our area would be hard pressed to make 50 rounds a year I would think.

In my online search there has only been 1 club that offers affordable racing for the entry level guy like myself. That is on Pepin at the LPYC who offers Saturday racing at an average cost of $20 for the non member. While it would be great to get out more I must be realistic with my schedule. Most of the time I just want to get out with some friends and have a casual sail racing to the Pickle factory for Lunch or have a rigging / derigging contest as we setup or put the boats away for the day. Its just fun. WYC does provide a great time for those that live in the immediate area and can have their boat on the water for the season but in a state with as many lakes as ours and as diverse as ours why limit yourself and exclude trailer sailors?

Just for fun if you get the chance to ask the club what is the cost for 2017 if a trailer guy wants to come out for the day? Including launching, parking, BBQ afterward etc... If I find no other options perhaps it would be worth it to join the C22 for an afternoon this summer if schedule allows.