Marine Air Conditioning

[sigbear]

Has anyone had AC/Heat installed on their 309? I am considering having it done in the Fall. I haven't gotten quotes yet but have been told to expect about $6000 which seems high to me. I would also have a generator installed.

This self contained unit is $1600, I don't know anything about the quality of this unit.

http://www.marinaire.com/Marine_air_conditioner_p/msba16k2.htm?gclid=CKykyruHs7ECFbRa7AodgEwA0w

Sigbear

 

[jsalley]

I installed a 16k BTU Mermaid AC unit last year. Catalina now recommends 16k for the 309, and my experience has been positive so far. I did the entire install myself, and it took about 4 days working alone. I would be happy to give you whatever details you need, from sources of the numerous parts needed to tips on running ducts, installing plumbing and electrical runs, etc. You don't need a permanently installed genset - my system runs fine on a portable Honda EU200i generator (the 309 really isn't I big enough for the weight and space of a permanent genset). There was an article on installation of an AC system on a 309 in the Catalina Mainsheet magazine's tech section a couple of years ago.

 

[sigbear]

Hi John, you're a lot smarter than I am. There is no way I could install such a unit myself,so, I will begin the quote process in September. I am going to have Hull# 168 hauled out and cradled this fall for a hull inspection, painted in the spring and possibly A/C installed. Any idea what a fair price would be to have the Marine Air unit installed?

Don

 

[jsalley]

Don
I'm gonna guess $4000, but there's a huge number of variables, including make and size of unit, AC only or reverse cycle, type of pump, new or existing thru-hull, number and location of outlets, wood or plastic grills, electronic or conventional controls, etc. I would highly recommend that you consider the Mermaid over Marine Air - longer and better warranty, lower current draw (runs off the Honda!), overall quality. Also, I'd not go smaller than 16k BTU, given the cabin volume that needs cooling. This is also Catalina's recommendation.

 

[sigbear]

I wish you were right John ($4000), I got 2 estimates, 1 was 8-9K the other $6500 but would be billed for actual rather than the $6500 estimate. I am still searching, neither of these estimates would work for me.

Don

 

[Ken13579]

I had mine installed in 07 on Hull #22, and wrote the article for Mainsheet. I could send you the pics and install notes as I remember them, but I don't think I have the article itself. Cost was about $6K for a 16K Cruisair, installed by a local mechanic in Michigan City, IN, recommended by my Catalina dealer. The install was done with the boat in the water, but he came up to our winter storage yard in the early spring and drilled the intake and outflow holes, and installed the shutoff and anti-siphon valves with the boat on the hard. The only big issue we had was that, even though Catalina made the 309 with an AC install in mind, one of their engineers put the holding tank discharge pipe right through the middle of the channel behind the galley cupboard that is supposed to be open for the AC ductwork up to the V-berth. That design was changed after about hull #30, but that didn't help me much. I will look for the notes I made and pics and try to post them again. Bottom line is that we have been delighted by our AC and there have been no problems up to this year when we couldn't get cooling water flow to the unit. Turns out the strainer needed total clean-out and there was air in the pump intake line that needed to be bled.

 

[Ken13579]

Some more comments re the AC install:
1. The unit is installed on the platform in the port lazarette. The units have an air intake and filter built in, which on mine was about 12x12. We positioned the unit so the filter was against the wall, then cut a square hole in the wall and installed the filter box from the aft cabin side of the wall. Very slick setup.
2. We ran a 5" duct to the galley wall, just to the right of the trash door. The duct runs along the bottom of the inside wall in the lazarette, under the platform for the waste basket, then up the front wall to the register, where a Tee/Reducer takes a 3" line to go to the forward cabin and a 5" output which goes right to the register inlet. Note: We found that we really needed a register with an adjustable shut-off, but couldn't find one for a 5" duct anywhere. I finally got a friend on the dock who is a Purch. Mngr for an RV company in Elkhart to find me one from the RV suppliers. She came up with several, but only one had a barrel that exactly fit the hole in the wall and the output of the tee in the ductwork. Since at least one of the others was a better design, I would recommend getting an RV Dealer parts guy to go thru his catalog, order you the one you want, and then size the hole and the tee to match it when you install. We also teed a 4" duct to the aft cabin back wall. That teed off right at the discharge of the AC unit.
5. Our Cruisair is reverse cycle, which does a great job ofr heating the boat in colder weather in the Spring and Fall.

 

[sigbear]

jsalley & kenreed

I found a guy at my marina who is going to install the AC/Heat unit in my Catalina 309 #168, this guy is very knowledgeable and has installed several units including his own boat. I would appreciate any notes and recommendations that you haven't already provided. jsalley, did you also install the unit under the port side lazarette? would you do any thing different?

Feel free to PM me if you like.

Don

 

[jsalley]

Mine is also in the port cockpit locker on the lower (most forward) platform. My installation is similar to Ken's although I used 6" insulated ducting from the AC unit to the aft cabin air outlet, 6" from the unit to a 6-6-4 Y splitter under the trash can platform and 6" to an outlet on the galley wall outboard of the trash can flap, and 4" uninsulated ducting from the splitter to the forward cabin through the channel on the port side of the cabin at the edge of the headliner. Assuming you run the forward cabin duct along this route, be sure to have your installer cut off the ends of all of the protruding hull-deck joint screws, or the boat's motion will eventually puncture the duct. He may also need to cut out a section of each bulkhead the duct passes through (there are 4) to enlarge the openings enough to easily pass the duct. I mounted my thermostat/control panel on the side of the electrial panel above the chart table, facing forward; this puts it out of direct sunlight and away from any A/C air outlets. I have a few interior pictures showing the outlets, and one of the A/C unit in the locker that are attached. I'll try to snap a few more of the controls and the separate AC breaker panel when I'm on the boat tomorrow.

Regarding the seawater pump - if your boat has the PSS prop shaft seal vent line connected to a throughhull with a seacock, you can remove the vent line from the seacock and replace it with a long tube that vents to air well above the waterline (I routed mine onto the forward bulkhead of the cockpit locker). This frees up that thruhull and seacock for the A/C pump with no need to put a new hole in the bottom of the boat, since the water vent is entirely unnecessary on a sailboat that doesn't exceed 12 knots according to PYI.

Let me know if you or your installer need anything specific.

 

[onecoolair]

Unprotected a/c unit location not good!

Mine is also in the port cockpit locker on the lower (most forward) platform. My installation is similar to Ken's although I used 6" insulated ducting from the AC unit to the aft cabin air outlet, 6" from the unit to a 6-6-4 Y splitter under the trash can platform and 6" to an outlet on the galley wall outboard of the trash can flap, and 4" uninsulated ducting from the splitter to the forward cabin through the channel on the port side of the cabin at the edge of the headliner. Assuming you run the forward cabin duct along this route, be sure to have your installer cut off the ends of all of the protruding hull-deck joint screws, or the boat's motion will eventually puncture the duct. He may also need to cut out a section of each bulkhead the duct passes through (there are 4) to enlarge the openings enough to easily pass the duct. I mounted my thermostat/control panel on the side of the electrial panel above the chart table, facing forward; this puts it out of direct sunlight and away from any A/C air outlets. I have a few interior pictures showing the outlets, and one of the A/C unit in the locker that are attached. I'll try to snap a few more of the controls and the separate AC breaker panel when I'm on the boat tomorrow.

Regarding the seawater pump - if your boat has the PSS prop shaft seal vent line connected to a throughhull with a seacock, you can remove the vent line from the seacock and replace it with a long tube that vents to air well above the waterline (I routed mine onto the forward bulkhead of the cockpit locker). This frees up that thruhull and seacock for the A/C pump with no need to put a new hole in the bottom of the boat, since the water vent is entirely unnecessary on a sailboat that doesn't exceed 12 knots according to PYI.

Let me know if you or your installer need anything specific.

Does anyone not see a problem here??:naughty: I count about 1/2 dozen reasons this is not good right off!

 

[jsalley]

I hesitated to put this picture up, but it was the only one I could find. It was taken just after the unit was installed at the end of the day, with stuff obviously just thrown in the locker. It doesn't look like that ordinarily. BTW, this is the factory specified location for the A/C unit.

 

[onecoolair]

I hope I was'nt being to critical but it looked like more of a safety issuies then anything else.
And felt I had to say something.
At the very least I would and I hope you are planning on doing so would be to build a shelf and some sort of vented protective barrier around the sides. Also it would be best if units compressor was mount in a location that can benefit from the cooling of the boats interior. I have discovered that if I place a fan that blows directly on the compressor I can pick up about an extra 5 to 8 degress of cooling out of the a/c vents. I have a 20amp GFI outlet next to each location of my a/c units. Where I can plug a fan into along with a/c unit it self. This outlet becomes active from a dedicated breaker for each a/c unit at the nav station "B" side panel. Breaker is only on when I am running that particular a/c unit. Fan can continue to run between a/c cycles. Which helps keep compressor as cool as possible in this Texas heat. BTW..Just your standard 15 dollar fan from Wal-mart makes for a big difference. I found a couple of 120volt much quieter computer fans last year that take up less space , I just not have gotten around to putting them in place yet. Then I will use the Wal-mart fans some place else.
Something else you may want try is.
I also use a venturi to suck the concendation out of the drain pan. The venturi is mounted above the water line and screwed to the discharge seacock. Also keep and eye on your marsh pump I had one that was on one of my a/c units go bad once the copper cooling coils corroded out and caused it to short out and fail. So I replaced it with another type pump like the one that has been running near continuiously for 10 years, with not one complant in all this time. A little gaint. Of which I am extremely please with. I hate to brag, but it will suck the chrome off a Buick! Go with the most powerful pump you can afford. Reason the faster and more powerful the flow then the less muck will be able to build up in the plumbing of your a/c unit.

 

[jsalley]

Here's the control panel for the A/C:

 

[sigbear]

Thanks for all the pics and info John, you did a real nice clean job.

 

[Ken13579]

John, you just heard me slapping my forehead with a big "Duh". The idea to take the water intake for the AC from the PSS prop shaft vent line is really excellent, and I never even considered it. Would probably have saved several hundred $. I may be down in your area next summer...would love to stop in and chat. My sister and bil have a restored Allied Luders 32 in Kinsale and we get down there every couple of years.

Ken

 

[jsalley]

Drop me a line when you come down. I pull a few shifts at the little hospital in Kilmarnock, not far from Kinsale. My boat's in Deltaville, not too far away on the other side of the Rappahannock.

 

[onecoolair]

John, you just heard me slapping my forehead with a big "Duh". The idea to take the water intake for the AC from the PSS prop shaft vent line is really excellent, and I never even considered it. Would probably have saved several hundred $. I may be down in your area next summer...would love to stop in and chat. My sister and bil have a restored Allied Luders 32 in Kinsale and we get down there every couple of years.

Ken

I disconnected my head pickup line a long time ago. To use for an a/c pickup. I use fresh water from the shower to flush my head. I am now thinking of doing same for vanity sink drain and just letting the shower sump handle it. Shower sump is right there next to through hole so it an easy do....And then tee the two thru hulls together and put a valve on each side of tee for bi-passing and since they are right next to each other. This way if one suddenly plugs the other through hole can act as alternate and allow the unit to keep runing till I can clear the plug up.