Main Salon Upgrades & repairs Advice

[SloopDogg]

Hello all,
I have a 1985 Tartan 40 and I'm on my 3rd off season. Each year she gets a big project.
Year 1, she saw all new waste and vent plumbing (following Peggie Hall's suggestions) and a new Fresh head Toilet. A Deep, Deep cleaning, A completer bottom job, new Awlgrip Hull (Unfortunately, this did not go well and I'm now in my 3rd off season of trying to fix the 1st yard's horrible work and follow up service!), a rebuild of the centerboard, a new chartplotter and radar combo and a new, larger offset binnacle guard to hide all the wires. I also rerouted a bunch of wire out of the bilge!

Year 2, she saw all new Lewmar Ocean series hatches, 6 in all, (if anyone ever says installing new hatches is easy, never listen to their advice again!) I think Mainesail would be proud! All old holes clean and filled and all new holes plugged and counter sunk, installed with MaineSail's Butyl and through bolted. This was probably 8 weeks of 2-say weekends! Cleaning off the old silicone probably ate up 3 weekends!! She also got a good deal of the interior teak refinished with Watco Danish finish and all the opening ports re-bedded with butyl to stop them from leaking.

Year 3, this year, she is getting a new sole in the main salon. This boat has obviously been plagued with severe leaks for years. The sole had been patched in some places, replaced in the galley and was still rotting around the mast. This got real bad, real fast! Well, in ripping out the old sole, which was made up of a 1/2 inch plywood subfloor, screwed to the structure and a 1/2 inch teak & holly plywood glued down to the subfloor with epoxy, I realized that the 30 something year old, aluminum water tanks were leaking. So, Now I decided to take those out too. I also figured, while I'm at it, I'll take the settees apart and clean everything up and put everything back together fresh!

So, this leads me to the first question; My wife is always saying how dark it is down below with all the teak and comparing that to the euro production boats, which she loves, aesthetically. I'm now thinking I'd like to replace the settee fronts with a white Formica laminated marine plywood. My stumbling block at this point is, how do i cover the screws? With teak laminated plywood we use teak bungs. I have seen a system that uses PVC caps. I'm considering this but Would like to know if I should be doing something else?
https://www.popularwoodworking.com/projects/aw-extra-111413-working-with-melamine

2nd question; Should I adhere the new T&H plywood to the subfloor the same way, with epoxy? or, is there a better option I should go with?

3rd question; The Port settee is a U shape and return toward the center-line. the fronts that make up the seat rest on the sub-floor and the T&H layer is cut around that box out. this adds support the fronts from both sides. I'm considering just running the new T&H all the way to the bulkheads and resting the seat fronts on top of the teak and holly. This makes the patterning really simple. both pieces would be pretty near perfect, right angle rectangles. My only reluctance is that the seat fronts would not be locked in as tight. This doesn't seem like that a bid a deal to me but, I'd like some confirmation.

4th Question; I can't seem to find a source for the seat corners. Can anyone help with that?

 

[dlochner]

Generally, it is a good idea to follow the original structure. If something was epoxied down, epoxy down the replacement, if something is tabbed to the hull, tab the new piece to the hull.

The internal parts to the boat, either the fiberglass pan and liner in modern boats or the stick built furniture in boats like Tartan and Sabre are structural and functional. The front of the settee is an important structural part as well as part of the settee. Under sail the hull is subject to a lot of stresses, the cabin sole, the bulkheads, the settee parts help to keep the hull in the designed shape.

Likewise, when replacing parts, replace them with materials of similar structural strength. It might be easier to replace settee fronts with a laminated piece of chipboard, but it would not have the same strength. Replace those sections with marine ply or cabinet grade plywood. Good cabinet grade plywood has more layers and is knot free or only has very small knots, very similar to marine grade plywood.

Laminated plywood is probably not a the best option. Moisture can cause the laminate to separate from the underlying plywood. Instead, invest in a good paint and proper surface preparation. It may have to be painted from time to time, but that is a lot easier than replacing laminate.

 

[CloudDiver]

Rule # 1) Don't listen to your wife.
Rule #2) If you don't agree with Rule # 1, don't get married.
Rule #3) If you ignore Rule#2 and get married anyway, while you lament your decision and think the lives of those who decide to stay single is so much better; just know that... it absolutely is.

 

[FastOlson]

Before you cover or replace any nice teak panels, you might consider lightening them and then varnishing.
We made the interior of our boat a LOT lighter and more pleasant this way. We love the golden look of natural teak without the factory oil and stain.
This link is from a 2012 blog entry.
http://www.ericsonyachts.org/infoexchange/entry.php?107-Another-Fall-Another-Bulkhead
And, you can see quite a difference in color and brightness in this blog entry where one door panel was done before the surrounding bulkhead was done.
http://www.ericsonyachts.org/infoexchange/entry.php?100-Vent-Method-for-Cabin-Doors

 

[Will Gilmore]

I'd like to replace the settee fronts with a white Formica laminated marine plywood. My stumbling block at this point is, how do i cover the screws?

I spent years working in cabinet shops in Boston, Winston-Salem, Sarasota, and Palm Beach. Formica is easy to work with and the contract cement used is waterproof. If you have to screw a part down thru the exposed surface, glue the laminate on in place. Cut the laminate a tiny bit oversized and clean it up with a file.
There are a bunch of videos online about working with laminates like Formica.
I am a big fan of the look of wood but I also like to work with other materials too. I like the look of 2 or more mediums together as well.
You wouldn't even need to replace your fronts of their wood is not rotting or otherwise damaged just glue the laminate on over it. Be careful around the fiberglass as acetone is the solvent you use to clean up the contact cement with. Heat will peel it back up and heat will help bend the Formica around the corners.
By the was, always listen to your wife. If she's your wife and not your prospective wife then CloudDiver's rules don't apply.
- Will (Dragonfly)

 

[SloopDogg]

Hi Guys, Thanks for the replies.
As Far as following my wife's suggestions, I learned that she does know better about appealing to a woman's senses. This is my third boat overhaul and we sold both of our previous boats to women, for asking, in short periods of time. The proof is in the pudding as far as I'm concerned. We've looked at dozens upon dozens of boats over the years and an old, dank, smelly boat has zero appeal to anyone. So thanks for the advice but, I'll be sticking with my partner and listening to whatever she has to say and considering it in my decision making. Her ideas pay dividends! LOL

As for the laminate, and all the plywood for that matter, I will be sourcing either Tartan themselves or Boulter Plywood, here in Massachusetts. They offer a marine plywood laminated on both sides. I figure between that and sealing the edges with epoxy, strength will not be an issue. The existing panels have seen some decay where the meet the sole due to leaking water tanks.

I did think of laminating afterward but then thought, the shop laminated would be preferable in quality. I'm not crazy about paint, especially over teak. The oily nature if the wood makes that a difficult process.

I'm still on the fence about the seat part of the settee. The real front will be installed as in the factory, It is just the added seats that make up the U shape that will be on top of the new teak. I've also considered routing a groove to compensate.

 

[Will Gilmore]

I'll be sticking with my partner and listening to whatever she has to say and considering it in my decision making. Her ideas pay dividends! LOL

Sounds like you have wisdom and experience.
I'm sure your and her ideas will work perfectly. Keep in mind, you can bend laminate around those curved corner blocks. It's not the easiest thing to do but if you want the corners to match the face panels, it's something to consider.
Please, post the results. I'm very interested.
-Will (Dragonfly)

 

[TomY]

Your wife is so right. Too many boats are dark below. Great ideas above, but what about adding light from above as well?

You have new hatches, are those deck hatches and or ports? Did they help?

If you have dorade boxes with cowl vents (some Tartan 40's do), you could add (if it isn't done already) plexi to the tops of the dorade boxes. When I built new dorade boxes, I used Lexan for the tops of the boxes.

These added light in the head and passageway to the vee berth, the only places that that needed some daylight. Below, they now provide a nice beam of daylight through the stand pipe hole into the overhead.

We have a third dorade box over the forepeak. The forepeak was a black hole until this was added. Instead of plexi, I mounted a 4" clear deck plate(same effect). I use the deck plate to stow the anchor chain deck wash. It adds another beam of daylight into a dark spot. Deck prisms used to be common in old boats to achieve the same effect.

 

[SloopDogg]

I like that dorade idea! Yea the 6 hatches I spoke of are all deck hatches. she also has 10 opening ports! So she does get some natural light in. I do like the idea of some different textures and colors down below. I think the Blue Jacket did some nice things with white surfaces. Also, the Moody 40 aft cockpit did some nice white and cherry work down below. I'm pretty excited about this project and I'll be documenting it as I go.

 

[Will Gilmore]

I would like to double thumbs-up TomY's last post. Beautiful boat, great mods.
- Will (Dragonfly)

 

[SloopDogg]

Ok, I'm back!! I have some more comments and questions.

I've got all the pieces cut, having used the old pieces as templates and I'm finally in the process of coating everything and prepping for installation.

I'm deciding to use bronze silicon screws to screw down the sub floor as it seems a better choice given the moisture and SS having crevice corrosion issues in such a moist environment. I'm also planning to use them to screw the rest of the settees back together as well just because. I got the flat, square head type. If I'm doing through a 1 inch x 1 inch rails for backing and screwing the 1/2 inch plywood, should I be using 1 1/2 inch screws? also, going through the 1/2 inch sub floor into the fiberglass stringers, should I use just 1 inch screws or should I go longer. I don't really see any benefit to having so much screw exposed on the underside but, I don't want to under cut anything. I feel that the pointed end sticking out of the wood could just be a problem for doing things in those hard to reach areas later on. Weather pulling wire or hoses or anything really.

I'd like some advice on attaching the solid teak edging to the 1/2 inch teak and holly plywood at the bilge opening. My plan is to epoxy it and then hold it there with finish nails while it cures and to add some shear resistance. I can't seem to find bronze finish nails and stainless has the same issue. I can find bronze boat nails but they have a much bigger head and would be harder to sink. Of course they'll never be seen with the bilge boards in place but I'm afraid of them maybe scratching the finish off the bilge boards if they stick out in the least.

Should a pre-drill the nail holes in the teak edging? I'm afraid of splitting it.

I think I have a pretty good grasp on the rest of the project

 

[CloudDiver]

You really shouldn't need to nail down the teak edging if you are using epoxy. If you must use a fastener, use a small bronze screw like a #6. Yes, drill pilot holes to avoid splitting BUT, if epoxy is the plan just try lead weights to hold the trim down while curing. You don't need a ton of clamping pressure on non-structural jobs. 4 or 5 pound Scuba-diving belt weights should do the trick.

 

[SloopDogg]

Well, I feel it is a little structural in that, it is an edge that will be walked on. Being that the these edges are right down the center of the main cabin and trim the bilge opening. And there qre actually some nails in it from the factory.

P.S. The bilge does not look like that anymore! That was one disgusting smelly bilge when i bought this boat. She's nice and clean now!

 

[dlochner]

My Sabre has a similar issue with the bilge boards. Some of the trim pieces have cracked and broken and several have fallen off. The set up is a little different in that the the plywood and the trim support the board.

My plan is to clean things up, use gorilla glue or epoxy to attach the trim and use us SS 18 ga brads in a pneumatic brad nailer. I'm not that concerned with crevice corrosion as the board will be varnished on top and bottom and I don't anticipate submerging the boards in water or being damp enough long enough to cause crevice corrosion.

 

[SloopDogg]

Hi Dave! Yea, whatever they did at the factory was good as, none of the edge pieces came loose as you can see in the pics. I'm probably going to go with stainless something or other... I don't own a brad nailer so I'll be sending them in with a hammer it seems!

 

[Will Gilmore]

The factor use of brads was most likely for efficient assembly while the glue set. Gorilla glue or epoxy should be stronger than the wood. You could even hold it all together with several wraps of packing tape. If you haven't read my hatch board post, you might find out interesting and applicable. I cut a slot with a tablesaw into the end grain (no glueing strength in end grain joints) and put a spline in to keep the rail (edge banding) aligned while I used packing tape to hold it tight until the gorilla glue set.
I also think, that if you are using gorilla glue, be sure to use water on the glue surfaces. It activates the glue better and shows the glue where to go, like flux in a way.
When holding a 1/2" panel to a one inch frame, 1 1/4" is plenty (1 1/4" screws are standard for working with 3/4" plywood) unless thru bolts are called for, then use thru bolts. If strength of bond is in question and you don't want a nut to protrude, think about a T-nut.

That project of yours is coming along nicely. I'm impressed. Keep posting. Thank you.

- Will (Dragonfly)

 

[SloopDogg]

Will, Thanks!
OK so, I've decided to just clamp the edge pieces based on the advice here. I've got everything set up and ready to epoxy. My only question now is how much working time will I have with the epoxy. I'm thinking I won't need more than about 5 minutes to apply epoxy to both surfaces and then align and clamp. I'm sure I'll have that at least. I did get some slow cure hardener for when I glue the T&H down to the sub floor. I figure I might need some more time to apply to 2 surfaces of 8 sq. ft. each and then get them in place and weighted down. I could use that but, I doubt it is necessary for the edging.

Also, I'm wondering if I should coat the faces of plywood before installing or should I glue the two layers of plywood with the just the one coat each. As I'm thinking about it. I believe I should not coat the bottom of the T&H and Top of the Sub floor until I'm ready to glue them together. Or is better to allow a coat of epoxy to penetrate a bit and cure. then. glue the two pieces together?

 

[dlochner]

Epoxy working and cure times are temperature dependent. Once you mix the epoxy, put in a flat pan, that will allow the heat generated from curing to dissipate and give you a longer working time. If it is really warm out, place the pan into another pan with ice to cool the epoxy.

Coat the plywood with unthickened epoxy. Use thickened epoxy to bond the pieces together. So long as the initial coat of epoxy has not cured, fresh epoxy will chemically bond with it. See the West System website for lots of good advice on working with epoxy. https://www.westsystem.com

 

[SloopDogg]

Well, things are moving along. Slower than I'd like but I'm pretty pleased with the results so far. Here are the new sole parts with 2 coats of epoxy. Next is to start the varnishing. I'm planning on 3 coats of clear and 2 coats of matt.

 

[SloopDogg]

Ok this is 2 coats of clear epoxy and 5 coats of clear gloss varnish from epiphanes. I think the next will be 2 coats of MAtt

I reused most of the bilge boards. I replaced the one with the hole for the table because I took it out. I decided to refinish it as an experiment and to use if and when I put the table in. I'm quite surprised with the result. It was pretty bad.