Leaky Keel Bolts-Catalina 30

[Aaron B]

Hi there,

I've been noticing some slight leaks coming up from my keel bolts on my 1977 Catalina 30. Just to paint the picture, I'd say there is maybe an ounce of water per month leaking through. Obviously this isn't good for the keel bolts themselves, and I was wondering what needs to be done. I've done a little bit of research thusfar, and my keel seems to be all fiberglassed, with no plywood beneath. I drilled about a 1 inch hole to verify. Should I remove and replace my current keel bolts with new ones coated with an epoxy?

Thanks in advance!

Aaron

 

[rbmcintire]

Aaron, I was wondering exactly where you did the core sample. I assume it was a 1" diameter, or was it to 1" depth? Some guys with late 70's boats could respond, but my '84 had the plywood in the bilge and at the compression post support just forward of the bilge. At both areas on mine, the plywood was soaked, but as I exposed more and more of my bolts, the cleaner they got. No evidence of "crevice corrosion" for me to justify paying to drop the keel. That course of action is pretty serious, and as is replacing keelbolts. An ounce of water in a month is not very much at all, but not to be ignored. I think in my case, the issue was caught in time and the water in-flow was not stagnant enough to cause corrosion. Your bolts look OK? Have you visually inspected the hull exterior (had it hauled or have snorkeled on it)? My "smile" was 3/16" open for a length of about 20". I ended up grinding out that fiberglass keel stub/ lead keel joint and sealing it with G-Flex epoxy thickened with milled glass. I did a 4" band of 18 oz. biaxial -+45deg fiberglass tape over the joint as well. Sealing it from the outside and drying out the inside was my strategy.

Rob

 

[Aaron B]

Hi Rob,

Thanks for your insight. I drilled a hole further forward, just aft of the forward-most keel bolt, and there is definitely water underneath. I drilled another inch deep, and it seems as though the wood may be rotted. The compression post itself seems solid.
I do check underneath once a month or so on Scuba, I do my own hull cleaning. There was a crack in the fiberglass on the Starboard side of the keel, about as far forward as you can get. That was a result of an unfortunate beaching incident, I never did hear who was at the helm for that one.

I haven't looked at the keel bolts themselves, is it OK to take them out one at a time and check? I'm assuming yes, but I don't want to find out the hard way!
FYI it looks as though the original keel bolts are in place and amazing rusted, but there are also a much more recent set installed, which seemingly are in good shape.
Thanks again,

Aaron

 

[rbmcintire]

Interesting, two sets of keel bolts? I assume the originals with nuts on studs and a second set of lag screws installed from the top down? Put up some pictures if you can. I would think neither of these guys are likin' the wet plywood.

 

[jrowan]

Aaron, I would read all the previous links on the site discussing keel bolt & Catalina smile crack problems. They are two different issues, but are intrinsically linked. The water is seeping into the keel bolts from the C 30 smile. A haulout is necessary to grind out the crack & use epoxy resin to repair & seal it. But if the plywood core under the bolts is rotted, the crack will return, as the keel can flex under the hull, because of compression fatigue. Movement can occur where the rotted plywood allows a gap for flexing. I would replace the original ferrous, mild steel keel bolts with the new hi-grade stainless type. They are less subject to corrosion. But removal & retapping new threads is a tough job. How can U tell whre the water is coming from? My bilge is always wet from the dripping shaft seal, etc. I usually have about 1/2" of moisture in the bilge. Check your compression post base hard for rot too.

 

[Team118]

I had to comment too.

I have a 1977 like yours. Beneath the fiberglass shell in the bilge is plywood and under that is the fiberglass hull. The keel is below that and is attached by the keel bolts.

If you had a grounding this would cause pressure on the keel causing the top of the keel to move forward and downward at the same time and the bottom of the keel to move backwards and upward at the same time.

Meaning there would be damage on the fore of the keel AND the aft of the keel where it attaches to the hull. The wet plywood would act like a 'rubber' bushing giving the keel give.

Water coming from the 'catalina smile' up the keel bolts into the bilge is a bad thing. If this is the case, you need to haul out and like JRowan said clean out the crack and reseal it. You would also need to tighten the keel bolts.

In addition you might want to look at Catalina's fix for the wooden stub in the bilge. I believe there is a recent post with pictures. If your keel bolts are ok under the first layer of fiberglass in the bilge it might be worth doing. It's alot of work, grinding, chiseling, etc.

Check this website from ClewedIn http://clewedin.com/blog/catalina-30-restoration-floor-keel-bolts

I'm also betting the water is coming from your shaft and other areas like your mast or from the rear seeping down towards the bilge.

Good luck
Chris

 

[Aaron B]

Hey guys,

Thanks for all of the insight. I realized I missed an answer to one of your questions Rob. I drilled a one inch deep hole forward with a 5/8 drill bit, not a hole saw. There is water underneath.
I will definitely need a haulout as well. My "new" re-inforced keel bolts (so I thought) are actually 2" lag bolts that are doing nothing. Apparently a previous owner thought that was good enough.

Chris, thanks for the insight on the results of the grounding. Mine actually was grounded with the Starboard side in the sand, laying sideways (60mph winds will do that!) Anyways, I'd imagine my keel was bent sideways in the same manner as you described, rather than fore and aft.

Haulout it is. I know this is a big job, how long did it take you guys to do comparable work?

 

[Aaron B]

One last thing: Maybe a bit silly, but what will prevent the keel from falling off in the yard when I begin this work? If I am going to remove the plywood, grind, etc, will I end up with a keel on the ground?
Thanks!
Aaron

 

[BillyK]

One last thing: Maybe a bit silly, but what will prevent the keel from falling off in the yard when I begin this work? If I am going to remove the plywood, grind, etc, will I end up with a keel on the ground?
Thanks!
Aaron

She should be set on her Keel... as to not have it dangling in the air.. its really the only way to be on the hard unless she stays in the lift monster and is held up by the straps..

 

[rbmcintire]

Hey Aaron, that's tough news to hear. I had to pull the engine to access all the bolts and it took 3 months of weekends to clear out the plywood and repair the outside of the hull and inside the bilge. It is tough, and you have to learn to love the pain and the knowledge it brings. And I still have yet to finish the mast post support. Anything I can do for myself and not pay yard labor rates helps me afford the boat.

Like Billy said, it'll be blocked up on the ground and not be going anywhere. Do a little bit more excavation around the original bolts to get the deeper picture. If the rust turns out to be more than just surface discoloration, I would have a hard time trusting them and would seek a professional opinion on replacing the keelbolts. Dropping the keel (lifting the boat off the keel, actually) could be a next step. I didn't have the corrosion, so your results and actions may have to vary from mine. Let us know what you see. A fantastic cutting tool for the laminate and plywood in the bilge is a 4" diamond blade on a portable hand grinder. I wish I'd found it sooner. It's also the tool to clean out the keel joint. A Dremel tool with various cutting bits and a couple of wood chisels will also be needed. Important: protect the bolts from accidental damage from chiseling/grinding, etc. Good Luck.

 

[Team118]

McIntire has the low down. It'll be a long haul (pardon the pun) but certainly worth it in the end.

The link I posted is great to get an general idea of how far you have to go down and there is a post in the Catalina 30 forum recently with pictures using G-10 (i think) fiber board. A great idea and I think a better solution than ClewedIn's...

The nice thing is you're in San Diego and can do this now and not really miss anything. Up here in Rochester, NY I would tackle this in November or begin in February or March...

Go get 'em!

 

[Aaron B]

Thanks for the info again. I called the boat yard and a flat rate of $900 for three days on the hard plus a bottom paint job was quoted, with all subsequent days at $100 per day. There's really no way I can get this done in three days from what you guys are saying, so what may be my options? Is it possible to install a new set of bolts, haul out, replace the floor in the bilge that is accessible, then do more next year?

Is this a reasonable plan?

 

[Twice Around]

Find a cheaper marina...that is outrageous!

 

[Old Skool Neil]

Aaron,
King Harbor in Redondo Beach charges $750 for a haul, pressure wash and a single coat of bottom paint. As long as they're doing work on the boat, lay days are free. My last haul there I replaced 2 thru-hulls, replaced 2 other valves, repaired various dings/blemishes in the topsides, sanded and painted the topsides (2 coats), sanded and painted the bottom (also 2 coats). The yard applied their coat of paint (the third) after I was done. Total yard bill was $815, including a surcharge for bringing in my own bottom paint for the first 2 coats.

Their lay day charge, not applicable in my case, is $3/foot/day, pretty close to what you were quoted. Note that yards in Los Angeles Harbor quoted me $1300 - $1400 for the haul and bottom paint alone!

 

[jrowan]

$900 overall for a haul out & bottom job isn't too bad - $750 - 800 even a beter deal.
In Virginia I paid about $300 for the haul / wash/ & block, then about $8.00 per day for the amost 2 months (about $500) it took to do a bottom job & overall refit. I scraped, sanded, epoxied & bottom painted my own hull - I didn't even want to ask how much the yard would charge to do it! My advice is do as much as u can stand & afford in terms of maintenance while on the hard. Don't forget to check your packing @ shaft seal & your thru-hull valves. It's worth for the peace of mind when it's all done. Cheers.

 

[rbmcintire]

Aaron, I had no idea S.D. marinas charged that much for a short haul. I certainly can appreciate only being able to do what you can do. What does the yard charge for long-term storage on the hard and what would they charge to do the complete job? Is a Mexican yard an option? The kind of time window you're talking about will require a tremendous amount of pre-planning, pre-staging of materials and some extra contractors to work around the clock. Maybe blasphemy on this forum, perhaps, but is the boat worth it? I'm serious. Evaluating upgrading the seven lag screws you can get at easily, is a viable intermidiate plan. Grind out and seal the hull crack during the short haul. After G-Flex epoxy w/ milled glass, prime the repair area with Interprotect 2000. The plywood? I dunno, it really takes time to do and I'd say you have to pull the engine. The supplemental "sister" bolts are supposed to be 10" long. Here's some info from a Catalina 27 website that has factory drawings for the bilge/keel work. Buena suerte, amigo.

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.blumhorst.com/catalina27/images/keel_factory_drawings/keel_bolt_replacement_windowed_from_catalina.gif&imgrefurl=http://www.blumhorst.com/catalina27/images/keel_factory_drawings/&h=691&w=827&sz=18&tbnid=406b7lH26WLBNM:&tbnh=120&tbnw=144&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dkeel%2Bbolts%26tbm%3Disch%26tbo%3Du&zoom=1&q=keel+bolts&usg=__TgllhK5pEhnIQr97ExN5v-zDjzk=&sa=X&ei=7T76TdvWFI-y0AHn_uiYAw&ved=0CDYQ9QEwAg