Keep the jib to maintain stability in higher winds?

Apr 16, 2017
841
Federation NCC-1701 Riverside
On a broad or deep reach, if you are fighting the helm to stay below a beam reach, the mainsail it trimmed too tight or you have too much mainsail area. There will be a lot of pressure on the helm, I would suggest you need to ease the main so you can steer your course, especially on a fractional rig with a big mainsail and a small jib, or a cat-rigged dinghy.
Nice find Judy. I dont dispute anything so far. Im trying to rebuild the scenerio and the copied post says it right here...the 140 sailor probably had more mainsail than he should have. There was too much helm pressure and not enough headsail to balance. Its counter intuitive , but downwind you want to sheet mainsheet in hard to get balance back. Just as in jybing, pull it in first, then let it back out. The mainsheet exposure needs to be reduced.

The 140 isnt broaching with a spinnaker, hes rotating (rounding up) too fast to compensate with ballast.

Im totally gonna ask the opti trainers if i can tag along on a windy day and do everything i can to screw up with just the main and then compare with the headsail. Ill be singlehanding so it should be easy to mess up.
 
Jun 25, 2004
1,108
Corsair F24 Mk1 003 San Francisco Bay, CA
The 170 is not stable at all. If i sit on the corner of the cuddy cabin by the jib sheet cam and lean back, its over in about 2-3 seconds. Thats not hyperbole.
I am not surprised that an adult can capsize a 170 by sitting in front of the mast, on a very narrow part of the beam, and pulling it over with all his weight. It's fairly easy to capsize a centerboarder when standing or sitting on the bow. In fact, that's how instructors teach students to capsize a centerboarder dinghy, so that they can teach how to do a recovery.


But nobody does that the real world. I don't know anybody who sails a dinghy sitting in front of the mast, with the stern lifting out of the water.

A good centerboard sailing coach will tell her students to keep their weight aft when sailing deep down wind to increase the hull's form stability and to reduce drag (and to keep the rudder in the water).

So here's the physics explaining why it's easier to capsize a centerboard boat if you put all your weight on the bow. Again, it's all about how the center of bouyancy forms a couple with the center of gravity. That's what creates the righting moment.

Someone sitting on the foredeck of a 170, where the beam is about 4 feet, can capsize the boat easily, because that's the narrowest part, and by weighting the bow, the aft end of the boat will lift up. In effect, you've reduced the effective beam of the boat from 7 feet to 4 feet.

By lifting the stern out of the water partially, and keeping only the narrow bow in the water, you have reduced the righting shortened the distance between the center of bouyancy and the center of gravity. You have also reduced the magnitude of the upward force acting at the center of bouyancy.

It would be a lot harder to do if you were standing at the beam, which is 7 feet wide. Common sense and and all instructors should tell you to keep your weight aft in the cockpit, a bit aft of the the maximum beam when sailing deep angles, especially in overpowering conditions.

If you put your weight forward, in a light weight boat where the crew can easily weight more than the boat, you are increasing the chances of broaching.

Judy

From the perspective of designing an experiment about boat handling, if you perform the experiment outside of normal operating parameters, the observations are not germane to situations within normal operating parameters. In this experiment, the results supported a hypothesis that and adult man can flip an H170 by putting all his weight on the side in front of the mast. It doesn't support the hypothesis that an H170 is "not stable at all".
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Likes: Will Gilmore
Jun 25, 2004
1,108
Corsair F24 Mk1 003 San Francisco Bay, CA
In my opinion, the H170 has a lot of stability compared to most centerboard boats that weigh 500-600 pounds empty. It's not as stable as a keel boat, but it has a bigger max righting moment than a comparable daysailor like the Oday Daysailor, with a beam of only 6.25 feet and rounder bilges. The righting moment is comparable to the competitors in similar weight and LOA, such as the Catalina 16.5

The H170 is an easy to sail, family oriented boat. But it won't save your butt in high winds the way a keelboat weighing thousands of pounds will. Nevertheless, capsizing can and does happen. The good news is that a boat like the H17o0 is easy to right.

I would recommend that a novice avoid sailing in winds over 8- 0 mph, and, even in light winds you should reef the mainsail. -- and either take some sailing lessons from an instructor or a friend, or watch a lot of beginner instruction videos. I would also recommend that beginners learn how to capsize and recover the boat, as demonstrated in the video below.

Please note that the instructor says (at 1:15 or so) that to capsize the boat, you have to hold onto the mast all the way down, almost until the masthead hits the water, or else the boat will self-right without any crew in the boat. That's a comparatively stable boat, IMO.

I personally think that unballasted centerboards are the perfect boat to learn how to sail, particularly if its as easy to recover as a Hunter 170. It will teach you a lot more about sailing than starting out on a keelboat.


Judy
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Likes: Will Gilmore
Apr 16, 2017
841
Federation NCC-1701 Riverside
I agree with that assesment that normally there isnt a person sitting on the cuddy corner. At the dock, and docking thats another story. It pretty cool being able to unsnap the cover and walk around the front to adjust something or get ready to capture a dock. It can get dicy up there while squiming around the mast.

Im usually trying strike a balance fore and aft. My guests usually are given headsail sheet duty, and generally they arent sure when to move until its too late. The 170 is tender enough that we have to pick who is definately going to have to change benches during a tack and who is reserve and who moves torso back and forth over the centerboard. We dont want the reserve switching sides unless needed. The guest have the least experince and are sitting in the most leverage area, and usually the least fit for sailing.

Seriously, its a tender boat. Im thinking of buying some used lead shot and making a 150-175lb centerboard. That would make a huge difference.
 
Jun 8, 2004
10,062
-na -NA Anywhere USA
@DrJudyB is correct about the 170 having more stability.
As a dealer who sold many brands of daysailors to include Hunter, Catalina, precision and others knowing the boats to include catamarans, leaning over to one side holding onto a shroud, all of them went over. Just like a canoe, when boarding step as much into the center to keep the boat from tilting over. I use to practice riding up maneuvers
 
Jun 25, 2004
1,108
Corsair F24 Mk1 003 San Francisco Bay, CA
Im thinking of buying some used lead shot and making a 150-175lb centerboard. That would make a huge difference.
You'll will almost certainly need to re-engineer the centerboard trunk if you add 100 or 150 pounds to the 25-50 (?) pound centerboard. You might need to replace the mast and the standing rigging too, due to the loads the rig will carry because of the higher righting moments generated by the keel. The mast wasn't spec'd to handle the higher forces, and it might buckle. Chain plates may not be adequately anchored for higher loads. The hull might flex under higher loads, makign it difficlut to keep the rig tuned.

In short, it might be better to buy a different boat than to modify this one. Certainly, it lower the market value if you start changing the basic structure of the boat without professional advice.

And nothing is more critical to the engineering than the righting moment of a boat. Virtually everything else on the boat is engineered to handle the loads generated by the righting moment with a high margin of safety.

Or, you could attach some lead ballast in the bottom of the cockpit. And then reduce max crew weight accordingly.

Or, you could sail without going beyond the limits of the boat. Either don't go sailing with guests who aren't able to switch sides or reef the sails when you have guests who aren't able to switch sides.

Honestly, aside from the weird plastic that cracks too easily, I think the H170 is a great family daysailor for sheltered inland waters. For its price and weight, it's a great boat. A lot of inland sailing schools have fleets of them.

But you don't have to take my word for it, Here's a review by Bob Perry, renowned naval architect.

http://sailingmagazine.net/article-461-hunter-170.html

Hunter 170
1999 November 10

By ROBERT H. PERRY

When I first set out to test sail the Hunter 170, I have to admit I wasn't quite sure what to expect. My previous experience with Hunters had been on larger boats during extended cruises, albeit very comfortable ones, and not just a quick afternoon spin on Biscayne Bay. I was interested to see the Hunter approach in the context of a daysailer, as the boat is billed as a no-nonsense, affordable family boat. I was pleasantly surprised during my first encounter with the new 170.

The Hunter 170 is a joint venture between Hunter Marine and JY sailboats, which combines simplicity and comfort with toughness and performance. The boat and rigging are set up to be as simple as possible, allowing the owner to rig the boat and go sailing very quickly. The mast is light and can be put up by one person, although it's easier with two. The jib is set up on a roller-furling system with the sheets led back to swivel blocks in the cockpit. The mainsail is simple as well, with only one line necessary for the outhaul and a main halyard that is easily accessible on the mast from the cockpit. I was told that reef points for the sail are an option, but our test boat came with only two settings for the main-either all the way up, or all the way down. The mainsheet is placed conveniently near the helmsperson to trim while driving, but the block swivels so it can be trimmed just as easily by the crew. This simplicity results in a clean and uncluttered cockpit, making movement about the boat very easy.

The standard version of the Hunter 170 has a centerboard that draws 4 feet, 6 inches when fully lowered. It is built with a counterweight so it doesn't require a 270-pound linebacker or a maze of blocks to pull it back up. Combined with the swing-up rudder, landing on the beach or parking on a sandbar is a breeze. With the centerboard up the boat draws only 6 inches. An added bonus is the open transom, which allows for easy access when swimming or boarding. Another option is a 2.5-horsepower outboard, but we decided to go on our test with sails alone. With a blue sky, and about 15 knots of breeze, it couldn't have been a more perfect day for sailing. When I met up with Eric Macklin of Hunter Yachts at the Miami Yacht Club to take the boat for a spin, Macklin had the boat on the trailer waiting in line with the mast already up at boat ramp, and within minutes of our arrival, we had the boat floating at the dock.

Macklin gave me a verbal tour of the boat, and as I got myself acclimated, we sailed out into the bay. The boat comes with a canvas-covered storage area in the bow and sheet bags mounted at the mast. This is an excellent place to keep gear, life jackets, coolers, or other stuff out of the way. As I leaned forward to take the dockline off the bow, I found the one thing that I didn't like about the boat: It was a long reach from the cockpit to the forward cleats, and the canvas cover doesn't support a person's weight when leaning forward. This minor awkwardness aside, the canvas can easily be removed by unsnapping it if you need to reach forward, which is what I did.

The Hunter 170 turned quickly through the wind, and I found that, although a stable boat, it is still sensitive to weight placement, and in a breeze, you definitely need to be on the high side.

After the third tack, Macklin said, "Uh, you don't have to duck. That's one of the best things about the set-up." Of course, he was right and I had to laugh at myself. Years of sailing Lightnings had taken its toll-I was unconsciously ducking my head through each tack, even though the boom was a good three feet above it. In addition to the generous headroom, the clean layout of the cockpit can easily accommodate six people. The contoured benches were also very comfortable as we sat back to enjoy the view of Miami from the bay.

Upwind in the puffs, the wind was strong enough that we had to play the sails to keep the boat under control. Had we not been pushing the boat hard, we probably would have rolled up the jib and sailed under main alone, since with the fractional rig, the main alone provides plenty of power in breezier situations. With the boat heeled, I found that Hunter had the foresight to incorporate a toerail down the center of the cockpit floor. Sailing hard upwind with my feet now firmly planted, I noticed that the boat did not have a heavy weather helm even when it was fully heeled over. I was able to turn the boat up and down with the flick of the arm.

We cracked off slightly onto a reach, and the boat took off. The wide beam provided plenty of stability. Our test boat did not come with the optional asymmetrical spinnaker, but this is an option I would recommend for the sailor looking for lots of fun off-the-wind. We tested the roller-furling jib, and I found that, as with everything else on this boat, it was very easy to use. The line used to roll up the sail is led back to the cockpit and conveniently located next to the cleat for the jib sheet on the starboard side. Macklin suggested that the jib is easier to roll up when sailing dead downwind. The technique also made for a tidier-looking furling jib.

The 170 is built using Hunter's Advanced Composite Process, known as ACP, which makes the boat light, durable, and virtually unsinkable. The technique begins with a weather-resistant polymer on the outside and a knitted fiberglass fabric on the inside. A urethane foam is then injected in between and the resulting sandwich heated and vacuum formed, making it extremely strong and solid. The process is actually environmentally friendly, since the plastic used in the construction is recyclable. In fact, scraps from the building process are recycled on-site at the factory.

The exterior plastic is scuff-resistant, which makes the boat easy to clean and maintain. According to Hunter Marine, since the layers are bonded together and not laminated, delamination isn't even a possibility.

The foam core is also very light so that the boat weighs only 480 pounds. For the skeptics out there, Hunter stands behind the product and puts its money where its marketing is-the hull has a five-year warranty.

The 170's solid construction and straightforward layout make it ideal not only for beginners, but also for more experienced sailors who want a fast, simple boat to take out just for fun. Hunter has taken great steps to ensure that the 170 has a wide appeal by balancing durability and performance for a high fun factor. As is the case with so many of it boats, the company seems to have found the right combination.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Likes: Will Gilmore
Apr 16, 2017
841
Federation NCC-1701 Riverside
I must have read that review a dozen times. Ive had the 170 for three years now startinf the forth season right now. Its a "good enough boat". The centerboard is about 75 lbs. Its held on with four lag bolts to the bottom hull. Should be plenty strong. Its not connected to the mast. I lust over a couple RS daysailers. Looking for used toys though.

If there was a VX One minuturized to 16 ft long with a 22 foot mast, with low performance parts...mmmm mmm honey child.

If Hunter built the 170 with a heavier centerboard and a real retractable bow sprite. Some mount points for higher quality gear, this would be THE family daysailer. Now RS Sailboats are filling in that gap.
 
Jun 25, 2004
1,108
Corsair F24 Mk1 003 San Francisco Bay, CA
The centerboard is about 75 lbs. Its held on with four lag bolts to the bottom hull. Should be plenty strong. Its not connected to the mast.
That is simply wrong, from a structural point of view. The mast and centerboard are connected to each other via the hull and shrouds, which transmit the forces generated by wind and gravity.

:banghead:
 
Apr 16, 2017
841
Federation NCC-1701 Riverside
That is simply wrong, from a structural point of view. The mast and centerboard are connected to each other via the hull and shrouds, which transmit the forces generated by wind and gravity.

:banghead:
That load of bs exceeds the osha safe lifting recommendations.

The 170 can support almost 1000 lbs of crew.

You think the mast will snap off when we all change sides from one bench to another in a tack? We are connected to the hull same as a centerboard providing righting. Is it possible that fewer people and an extra 50 lbs heavier centerboard might be less stressful than a 1/2 ton of railmeat?

Or are you saying the hull is flimsy. Im confused cause a couple post ago you provided koolaid from hunter that that acp hull would never delaminate. :)

Whats your angle.
 

Attachments

Sep 5, 2018
214
Hunter 170 Northfield, NJ
So here is a question I have wondered.
So the 170 is rated for 6 persons but the 18 is rated for 4 persons....why?
I would think it would be the other way around.
 
Apr 16, 2017
841
Federation NCC-1701 Riverside
So here is a question I have wondered.
So the 170 is rated for 6 persons but the 18 is rated for 4 persons....why?
I would think it would be the other way around.
The 6 person 170 is rated overseas, 18 is marketed exclusivly id the US. ;)
 
Mar 26, 2011
3,414
Corsair F-24 MK I Deale, MD
The OP has an unballasted CB boat. This has resulted in quite a few misconceptions. I'm also going to guess this was a broach/capsize and not during a beat.

*Some boats are quite unstable regarding broach/capsize with one sail. The Laser is a classic case. You actually lean it to windward on a run to avoid broaching.

* Raising the CB DOES help in most boats avoid broaching. It helps a lot with only one sail up. The CB is NOT providing ballast, it is providing lateral plain.
  • Most 2-sail boats love to round up with only one sail. Whether they are more stable is arguable and depends on the boat (I've see both). Without question, a reefed main and jib is more stable off the wind.
  • The capsize lever arm is reduced when the CLR is raised. But the improvement is minor, depending on the boat.
  • If the boat starts to heel, it is more likely to skid sidesways with the CB raised, reducing pressure and reducing the tendency to round up.
  • The CLR moves aft several feet when the board is partially raised . This is VERY important, because it reduces the imbalance and reduces the tendency of the boat to round up. MOST CB boats should lift the CB half way off the wind, not because it reduces wetted friction (tiny factor) but because it improves handling. Many boats have a tendency to round up and broach when the bow is pressed down, because the bow adds lateral resistance forward and acts like a rudder.
For example, if sailing my F-24 with main only I will ALWAYS lift the CB half to improve balance. You actually loose very little area, because during the first part of the swing, the board is moving backwards. Second, off the wind or main only, you don't need as much area (less side force).

Even multihulls, like the f-24 will round up when hard pressed. Partially lfting the CB reduces this tendency.

They are not overthinking this. Sailing is complicated.
 
Apr 16, 2017
841
Federation NCC-1701 Riverside
So here is a question I have wondered.
So the 170 is rated for 6 persons but the 18 is rated for 4 persons....why?
I would think it would be the other way around.
The 18 is almost twice as heavy since they went back to fiberglass reinforced plastic. Similar overall displacement means there is less bouyancy.
 
Apr 16, 2017
841
Federation NCC-1701 Riverside
Here are a couple more pictures for discussion. The perspectives are as projections of wind.

These picture offer a better idea of sail balance versus those horrible "ce" pictures in typical sailboat study material.

Downwind: the wing on wing configuration. The main is on starboard, self tacking jib on port. The coverage on either side of mast is close to even. This is balanced enough. If the jib were missing there would be tremendous force on main rotating the bow to port. Without the jib heavy use of rudder is required, and rudder response would be chaotic.

Next picture is a broad reach. Note the presentation to the wind is the same. That is to say, the main and jib project the same here as in dead down wind, however this is a safer and faster sail direction (no jybing) and (lifting versus dragging sail). In addition the keel would also have some lifting versus equal flow on each side. Without a jib the balance is clearly in favor of the main and rotation leading to rudder drag and rudder chaos. Even if the jib was poorly trimmed it would still help balance the rudder.

On a tack upwind notice how the main shrinks dramatically as it transitions to a lifting surface versus a drag and the jib stays about the same to shrinking. It doesnt have to be trimmed great either. If it is trimmed well it will balance the main in addition to boosting the lift of the main. If the jib was missing all the forces would be on port rotating to starboard requiring heavy rudder control.

In irons both sails thin out to almost nothing when wind projects on them. A flogging headsail will easily be more exposed than the main and it wont be long before the bow picks a direction.

Its not a furled jib or unfurled jib that causes capsizing, its unbalanced helm leading to chaos, chaos leading to capsize.
 

Attachments

  • Like
Likes: Will Gilmore
Sep 5, 2018
214
Hunter 170 Northfield, NJ
Very frustrating all this talk. Having basically no experience it is a lot to take in and it is likely I will not get out on the water until next year in the spring. I need to sit down and take notes and run it all through my brain.

I want to get out on the water and feel what you are talking about. Still need to glue down some more plastic and temps may not be on my side. One step at a time.
 
Jun 8, 2004
10,062
-na -NA Anywhere USA
@Shorefun
As for the 170, try putting six people or even six adults in the cockpit and either way the backend of the boat will be sitting to far down in the water plus you would be uncomfortable. So four is enough for sure.

I agree with you there is too much said confusing others as well in this thread due to several folks who contacted me

As for Macklin from Hunter, I taught that boy a thing or two. I was amazed he argued with me on how to sell sailboats because I ended up telling him a few things. Funny though as I was the top small boat dealer in the country for Beneteau, Catalina and Hunter all at the same time for small boats
 
Last edited:
Apr 16, 2017
841
Federation NCC-1701 Riverside
Very frustrating all this talk. Having basically no experience it is a lot to take in and it is likely I will not get out on the water until next year in the spring.
This is mostly noise. Judy Dave and I are saying the same thing but for some reason its not coming across well.

The 170 is super easy to sail it just has some design flaws that frustrate anyone with common sense, and its design makes it hard to modify. You can cut a tanker ship in half and make it longer no problem..adding hiking straps to a 170 is almost beyond reasonable feasability.

Get an RC sailboat and you can go out anytime. Youll learn physics old schooler boaters will never think of. Make your own RC boats and sails. You'll dominate the seas.

When you get on the water with a real boat, work on situational awareness and scaling the forces. Work on the adjustments and controls that you can change on the big boat thst you had to leave fixed on the RC.

Sorry you have to wait. My season is ramping up :)