Keel Retention 322

Jul 15, 2014
73
Oday 322 Freeport, Bahamas
My new to me 322 is based in The Bahamas and I regularly sail across the Gulfstream and further afield. The seas are often boisterous and the winds brisk.
I went from a full keel boat with an hourglass hull to the 322 with a relatively flat bottom. The 322 slams when coming off a wave (as do flat bottom boats) and 3500 pounds of kinetic energy (both up and down) is transferred from the keel to the attachment area in the keel sump.
I will not be hauling the 322 until next summer and at that time I will strengthen the keel sump with several additional layers of glass as well as a new cross hull beam. In the meantime I want to create a new keel "retention" system that I am installing next week and your input would be welcomed and appreciated. The retention system is simply to keep the keel from falling off. It's to "sort of" keep the keel dangling and stopping an immediate capsize while I have a few minutes to deploy the liferaft and EPIRB. I'm not an engineer.

Here is the system:
I bought a 16,000 pound nylon towing strap - 4 inches wide. I have melted a 1 inch hole into it - I clamped a 1 inch washer on top and underneath using 2 vice-grips to keep them in place. That worked well. I bought 3 new 1 inch nuts and a 3/4 inch nut as well as washers.
I am going to take the strap and attach it to the front keel bolt (studs stick up 2 inches beyond the nuts) and then run it over the cross beam and onto the second keel bolt. I am making a second cross beam and will go over that to the the third 1 inch keel bolt then a third cross beam and onto the aft keel bolt.

Do you think it stands a chance of keeping the keel "near" the boat for a few minutes?
 
Jan 7, 2011
4,727
Oday 322 East Chicago, IN
Geez, I was just getting over my concerns about the hull/keel joint on my new-to-me O322. ?

Is adding a big flat plate over the stud bolts (instead of the washers... Or under the washers) as a way to spread the load over a wider area of the stub keel of any value?

I will be anxious to get the boat hauled at the end of October and see what the keel joint looks like. I had it hauled and inspected before I bought her, but had a rough crossing on Lake Michigan bringing her home....lots of "slamming" of the hull.

Greg
 
Jul 15, 2014
73
Oday 322 Freeport, Bahamas
I considered having a 1/4 inch SS plate made to spread the load but the concern I'm trying to address is the rather thin layup in the keel sump.
I bought the 322 knowing about this potential issue. Raymond Hunt designed a wonderful boat in the 322. She has so many redeeming features that building up the keel sump was a mod I accepted. She was designed as a coastal boat but I intend to sail her far from shore. That keel design was a new concept and the engineering Hunt did is probably OK but we're now sailing boats that are almost 30-years old and have certainly run aground more than once and this strains the keel sump.
I posted this because I assumed some of you had built up the sump and I was looking for input. I didn't ask this to cause undo concern it's just that as a single-hander that likes to go places (instead of sailing from my dock right back to my dock) it's the main item I don't want to be worried about.
My last three boats were heavier designs with encapsulated keels. A NorSea 27, the best small offshore boat ever. A Countess 37 and a Bayfield, both built like trucks.
Other than the sump area, the 322 hull displays superb build qualities and I LOVE the boat and her sailing ability.
 
Apr 4, 2013
115
O'day 240 NY, NY (City Island)
Thanks a million for posting this and telling us about your new boat.

FWIW, here’s my thoughts. The strap might keep the keel with the boat for a few minutes, but I don’t know if it would keep the boat upright. The problem is (at least, what it looks like to me), if the sump failed and the keel was otherwise unattached to the hull with the sole exception of the strap, the keel would stay with the boat, but it would be connected through a hinged joint, rather than a solid cantilever connection. Hinged joints to not allow any moment load to be transferred, so the keel would not be able to produce any (or very little) righting moment to keep the boat upright. Actually, you may get a little righting moment as the boat heels way over, but not sure that would be effective in any seas large enough to dislodge the keel in the first place.

Hope that helps… and open to opinions and analysis to the contrary. I’m very interested in your efforts to upgrade the sump of your 322. The 322 is on my target list someday, and anything I could learn from your experience to improve this great boat would be extremely valuable and helpful.
 
Jan 27, 2008
3,045
ODay 35 Beaufort, NC
Thanks a million for posting this and telling us about your new boat. FWIW, here’s my thoughts. The strap might keep the keel with the boat for a few minutes, but I don’t know if it would keep the boat upright. The problem is (at least, what it looks like to me), if the sump failed and the keel was otherwise unattached to the hull with the sole exception of the strap, the keel would stay with the boat, but it would be connected through a hinged joint, rather than a solid cantilever connection. Hinged joints to not allow any moment load to be transferred, so the keel would not be able to produce any (or very little) righting moment to keep the boat upright. Actually, you may get a little righting moment as the boat heels way over, but not sure that would be effective in any seas large enough to dislodge the keel in the first place. Hope that helps… and open to opinions and analysis to the contrary. I’m very interested in your efforts to upgrade the sump of your 322. The 322 is on my target list someday, and anything I could learn from your experience to improve this great boat would be extremely valuable and helpful.
my 35 has large rectangular plates under each keel bolt nut. This seems like a good alternative to just washers. If you are worried you should drop the keel and validate the integrity of the keel bolts. Then if good rebed the keel and build up the sump if you feel it is needed. You should consult a naval architect to make sure what you plan makes sense. Anyone else would not be qualified to take on the liability of giving you bad advice related to structural modifications to your hull.
 
Jul 15, 2014
73
Oday 322 Freeport, Bahamas
I realize that the keel will turn into a pendulum but it would be close to the center of the hull bottom and I'd rather she laid on her side than went right over.
If I was sailing in near shore waters (what the boat was designed for), I wouldn't spend the time to consider these mods. However, this is a fine boat and the keel attachment is the main weakness I see that keeps her from being a great boat that can take you anywhere (in the right weather season).
I will over the next few weeks, check the fasteners of the deck to hull joint and look for ways to better fasten the "pretend" bulkheads. I came across the Gulfstream on a nasty day and had to re-tighten the Phillips screws when I got back to the Bahamas.

I dug, crawled, opened and explored every inch of this boat. The hull layup is excellent and the fact that there is no core, makes this hull a joy to own. The few leaks the boat had were all cured in a day using flowable silicone (a silicone with a honey like viscosity).

If the boat has a weakness, I'm a bit over 6ft and the chart table seating is made for smaller people and the settee bottoms are made for individuals with short thighs. But I can live with both of those as every boat has compromises. The only near perfect boat I ever owned was a NorSea 27 but it's one imperfection - I was too big for it, caused me to move on.
 
Jul 15, 2014
73
Oday 322 Freeport, Bahamas
my 35 has large rectangular plates under each keel bolt nut. This seems like a good alternative to just washers. If you are worried you should drop the keel and validate the integrity of the keel bolts. Then if good rebed the keel and build up the sump if you feel it is needed. You should consult a naval architect to make sure what you plan makes sense. Anyone else would not be qualified to take on the liability of giving you bad advice related to structural modifications to your hull.
The 322 already has SS plates (probably 3 in by 3 in) under the keel nuts. This issue isn't limited to the 322 and I have looked at what owners of other makes of boats have done to strengthen the keel area. I'd love to hire a naval architect however, the boat is 28-years old and has limited value. I will be dropping the keel next summer when I strengthen the layup. I'm not overly concerned about the keel studs. She was a fresh water northern boat until 2012 and was hauled every winter.

I'm doing this not because I expect a keel drop (or I wouldn't have purchased her) but as a "brain relaxant" so when I'm offshore, I'm not "unrelaxed" when she slams off a wave.

This 322 is in superb condition. I dove the keel and see no impact or other damage. I scrubbed the keel to sump joint and it's fine and the sump area is dry. With just a few mods, she'll be OK for a sail to Bermuda or the Leeward Islands. Keep in mind that my starting point is to the east of the Gulfstream so often the worse is already behind me.

PLEASE keep your thoughts and comments coming. I appreciate them. The 322 is a fabulous boat and I intend her to be my last (I'm 67).
Ciao,
Gary
 
Jan 27, 2008
3,045
ODay 35 Beaufort, NC
The 322 already has SS plates (probably 3 in by 3 in) under the keel nuts. This issue isn't limited to the 322 and I have looked at what owners of other makes of boats have done to strengthen the keel area. I'd love to hire a naval architect however, the boat is 28-years old and has limited value. I will be dropping the keel next summer when I strengthen the layup. I'm not overly concerned about the keel studs. She was a fresh water northern boat until 2012 and was hauled every winter. I'm doing this not because I expect a keel drop (or I wouldn't have purchased her) but as a "brain relaxant" so when I'm offshore, I'm not "unrelaxed" when she slams off a wave. This 322 is in superb condition. I dove the keel and see no impact or other damage. I scrubbed the keel to sump joint and it's fine and the sump area is dry. With just a few mods, she'll be OK for a sail to Bermuda or the Leeward Islands. Keep in mind that my starting point is to the east of the Gulfstream so often the worse is already behind me. PLEASE keep your thoughts and comments coming. I appreciate them. The 322 is a fabulous boat and I intend her to be my last (I'm 67). Ciao, Gary
if your keel rips the sump out of the boat or if the studs fail you will have so much water so fast that retention of the keel will be your last worry. The boat will sink while you are trying to figure out what happened . Get a good life raft and a ditch bag and provisions. Just my opinion fwiw.
 
Jul 15, 2014
73
Oday 322 Freeport, Bahamas
if your keel rips the sump out of the boat or if the studs fail you will have so much water so fast that retention of the keel will be your last worry. The boat will sink while you are trying to figure out what happened . Get a good life raft and a ditch bag and provisions. Just my opinion fwiw.
Thanks for your input. I have a good life-raft and ditch bag with EPIRB, water-maker, waterproof VHF, handheld aircraft radio, etc.
If this calamity occurred and I doubt it will, I expect the boat to float 5 to 8 minutes. I just don't want her to go turtle as I leave the ship.
The retention strap idea is just to keep the boat on her feet for a few minutes. The additional layup will be to strengthen the keel sump.
Since the boats are now close to 30-years old is there a guess as to what percentage of owners have removed the keel to check the studs?
 
May 17, 2004
5,032
Beneteau Oceanis 37 Havre de Grace
if your keel rips the sump out of the boat or if the studs fail you will have so much water so fast that retention of the keel will be your last worry. The boat will sink while you are trying to figure out what happened . Get a good life raft and a ditch bag and provisions. Just my opinion fwiw.
Not what happened to the Cheeky Rafiki when it lost its keel. Without the weight of the ballast the boat continued to float for a significant amount of time (possibly indefinitely). The downside is that the boat apparently went turtle before the crew could deploy the life raft. The OP's plan to keep the keel attached, if successful, *might* provide more time before complete inversion, or it might just keep the ballast attached to the now water filled hull and drag it down.
 
Jul 15, 2014
73
Oday 322 Freeport, Bahamas
Not what happened to the Cheeky Rafiki when it lost its keel. Without the weight of the ballast the boat continued to float for a significant amount of time (possibly indefinitely). The downside is that the boat apparently went turtle before the crew could deploy the life raft. The OP's plan to keep the keel attached, if successful, *might* provide more time before complete inversion, or it might just keep the ballast attached to the now water filled hull and drag it down.
First a GIANT THANK YOU to the Ontario 322 owner that mailed me a complete Owners Manual.

David, Good input and instantly going turtle like Cheeki Rafiki is exactly what I want to avoid. I'm only looking for 5 minutes and thoughts and ideas are what I seek. The retention concept is just a stop gap until next summer when I drop the keel and strengthen the keel sump. Maybe by that time I'll have such confidence that I can skip the work.
 
Jul 15, 2014
73
Oday 322 Freeport, Bahamas
ORIGINAL KEEL SUMP DRAWING from O'Day

Yesterday I received the Owners Manual for the 322. In the manual there is an engineering drawing dated Jan 8, 1987 of the keel / hull joint for the 302 and 322.
My boat was built in Oct 86 and is different from the drawing - the drawing is by a person or company noted as DFM.

It shows the lower section of the keel sump as being about 5/8 inch thick and also shows 2 rows of keel bolts. My boat has one row 3 x 1 inch and 1 x 3/4 inch. I will also measure the thickness of my layup this coming week. But from pictures I've seen of keel sump damage on other boats doubt that it's 5/8 inch thick.

Maybe there was a design change on boats built after Jan 87. If anyone wants a copy of the drawing (I don't know how to post it here) contact me
bahamasailing at Gm^#L dot com
 
Apr 4, 2013
115
O'day 240 NY, NY (City Island)
I'd be very interested to see that drawing, Gary. I'll email you. Also looking forward to what you learn about the sump layup thickness.

Thanks,

Greg
 

Pat

.
Jun 7, 2004
1,250
Oday 272LE Ninnescah Yacht Club, Wichita, Ks.
This is the same drawing that is in my 272 manual. I have one row of keel bolts. I have always wondered this: who designed the keel sump.?...I seriously doubt O'Day had an engineer on their staff in Fall River (but I could be wrong). Could this design and thickness layup have been designed by C. Raymond Hunt? And if the thicknesses & design are adequate as shown, were the boats actually built with an adherence to the original design intent ? On our 272 everything has been fine since we bought the boat
new in 1987, although I do look it over each fall when pulling it out for the winter...Pat
 
Jul 15, 2014
73
Oday 322 Freeport, Bahamas
This is the same drawing that is in my 272 manual. I have one row of keel bolts. I have always wondered this: who designed the keel sump.?...I seriously doubt O'Day had an engineer on their staff in Fall River (but I could be wrong). Could this design and thickness layup have been designed by C. Raymond Hunt? And if the thicknesses & design are adequate as shown, were the boats actually built with an adherence to the original design intent ? On our 272 everything has been fine since we bought the boat
new in 1987, although I do look it over each fall when pulling it out for the winter...Pat
GregL who posted earlier in this thread, sent me a link (off group) to a boat that had the bottom of keel sump strengthened using G-10

G-10 FR-4 is a thermosetting industrial fibre glass composite laminate consisting of a continuous filament glass cloth material with an epoxy resin binder. This product has characteristics of ultra high strength, low moisture absorption and chemical resistance. These properties are maintained under humid or moist conditions.

I can do this job without hauling the boat. This material is workable with carbide cutting tools and belt sander to shape. I'll make 3 templates covering the entire bottom of the keel sump and then buy the material. I will use 3/4 inch thickness shaped to match the bottom of the keel sump. I'll bed it into 5200. I'll do the center two bolts, then the front and then the aft.
 
Sep 23, 2009
1,475
O'Day 34-At Last Rock Hall, Md
Would be nice to hear a NA's opinion. I am amazed that only 5/8 of glass is holding our keels on. The rest of my hull is only 1/2". Are any other boats made like this? All I've seen to date have keel bolts thru floor members tied to the hull.
Some feel that these boats are only designed for coastal cruising but the severe pitching and rolling in the power boat wakes around Annapolis I feel puts more stress on the rig than most offshore sailing.
 
Jul 15, 2014
73
Oday 322 Freeport, Bahamas
Would be nice to hear a NA's opinion. I am amazed that only 5/8 of glass is holding our keels on. The rest of my hull is only 1/2". Are any other boats made like this? All I've seen to date have keel bolts thru floor members tied to the hull.
Some feel that these boats are only designed for coastal cruising but the severe pitching and rolling in the power boat wakes around Annapolis I feel puts more stress on the rig than most offshore sailing.
This type of keel mount is used by many high volume builders who know that the vast majority of boats are simply used as dockside condos. The built quality of the O'Day is much higher than I expected. The thickness of the hull itself seems OK as I've not witnessed any oil-canning in some pretty heavy seas. This is a fine boat and I'm only doing the strengthening of the keel sump for offshore use. The first thing I'll do on Monday is actually confirm that the bottom of the keel sump is actually 5/8 in thick. If it is, that will give me more confidence.

I know that the term "offshore" doesn't mean much after you had the crap kicked out you on the Chesapeake or Great Lakes. It's really more of a term of, are you close enough to port to get there if news of bad weather comes or can you limp to port.

This 322 has done 5,000 miles over the past three years and been to the Dominican Republic so I don't think there is much to worry about - I just decided to strengthen the only part of the boat that gave me any concern. With the G-10 system that GergL found it looks like a straight forward uncomplicated job.
 
Jan 27, 2008
3,045
ODay 35 Beaufort, NC
This type of keel mount is used by many high volume builders who know that the vast majority of boats are simply used as dockside condos. The built quality of the O'Day is much higher than I expected. The thickness of the hull itself seems OK as I've not witnessed any oil-canning in some pretty heavy seas. This is a fine boat and I'm only doing the strengthening of the keel sump for offshore use. The first thing I'll do on Monday is actually confirm that the bottom of the keel sump is actually 5/8 in thick. If it is, that will give me more confidence. I know that the term "offshore" doesn't mean much after you had the crap kicked out you on the Chesapeake or Great Lakes. It's really more of a term of, are you close enough to port to get there if news of bad weather comes or can you limp to port. This 322 has done 5,000 miles over the past three years and been to the Dominican Republic so I don't think there is much to worry about - I just decided to strengthen the only part of the boat that gave me any concern. With the G-10 system that GergL found it looks like a straight forward uncomplicated job.
im struggling to understand your solution. Just adding G10 thickness in the sump won't increase the cross section for shear of the sump unless it is glassed in and bonded to the sides of the sump. The other failure mode of tension failure on the sides of the sump won't be improved either unless the cross section is increased. Am I correct you are worried the nuts and washers will shear through the material versus the whole bottom ripping out? In that case the G10 will be a good addition but will be acting as backing plates under the nuts. Seems like you should use glass fibers and epoxy and bond the G10 in the sump versus 5200. 5200 won't give much shear strength along the sides of the sump. MaineSail has photos of a 302 sump failure where a keel fell off. The failure mode was the bottom of the sump ripped out. Search on that to see the pictures and plan a fix around that failure mode.
 
Jul 15, 2014
73
Oday 322 Freeport, Bahamas
im struggling to understand your solution. Just adding G10 thickness in the sump won't increase the cross section for shear of the sump unless it is glassed in and bonded to the sides of the sump. The other failure mode of tension failure on the sides of the sump won't be improved either unless the cross section is increased. Am I correct you are worried the nuts and washers will shear through the material versus the whole bottom ripping out? In that case the G10 will be a good addition but will be acting as backing plates under the nuts. Seems like you should use glass fibers and epoxy and bond the G10 in the sump versus 5200. 5200 won't give much shear strength along the sides of the sump. MaineSail has photos of a 302 sump failure where a keel fell off. The failure mode was the bottom of the sump ripped out. Search on that to see the pictures and plan a fix around that failure mode.
YES, you are correct. Every failure I've run across has been the keel bolts shearing through the bottom of the keel sump. I've see no keel sump side failures. So your assumption is exactly what I want to do. Just consider the G-10 as a way to spread the bolt load over the entire bottom surface of the keel sump instead on (what I have) three 3x3 plates and one very small plate on the aft bolt.

I will also add 2 more cross members and still attach the tow strap that I mentioned in the very first post in this thread.

I want to thank all the group members for their input. Without this thread I wouldn't have heard about G-10 from GregL. I'm back on the boat tomorrow to plan the project.