J-flag when C22 racing. Is this a thing?

[Jackdaw]

Saw this report on the 2017 C22 Nationals. Never heard of a J-Flag, which seemingly requires boats to sail Genoa only in heavy air. Did they mean to say jib and not genoa? I assume (if true) that means no mainsail, and not prohibiting use of a jib. I could not find the SIs. Is this a thing?

Tuesday’s conditions were the windiest with winds from 19 knots to gusting over 25 knots. This prompted the race committee to put up the J Flag that requires boats to sail with genoas only. The winds settled down the next few days with an average of 14 knots to 22 knots, with the last day down to 8 to 12 knots.

https://www.sail1design.com/2017-catalina-22-nationals-regatta-report-results/

 

[EditorC22NSA]

Was not stated in the initial SI, but probably via Notice to Competitor's (via race board) as an update to the SI's following the first day of racing and in anticipation of wind forecast for the following days. Yes...required use of the smaller 110% jib sail. Skippers could still use mainsail. Probably a very good call by the RC.

 

[Jackdaw]

Was not stated in the initial SI, but probably via Notice to Competitor's (via race board) as an update to the SI's following the first day of racing and in anticipation of wind forecast for the following days. Yes...required use of the smaller 110% jib sail. Skippers could still use mainsail. Probably a very good call by the RC.

Make more sense!

That's interesting that they would do that at a National Regatta. I know a lot of J24 fleets will do that at club races, if the boats agree. but for nationals you'd expect to let the teams make up their own minds!

 

[EditorC22NSA]

Make more sense!

That's interesting that they would do that at a National Regatta. I know a lot of J24 fleets will do that at club races, if the boats agree. but for nationals you'd expect to let the teams make up their own minds!

It is all about what the participating competitors want. Compared to J24, the C22 is "under keeled" in 25 mph wind.

 

[Brian M H23]

"20 boats competed in the Genoa Gold Fleet, 12 boats in the Genoa Silver Fleet, and boats from both of those fleets made up the 12 boat Spinnaker Fleet."

This says to me that of the 32 entries, only 12 were interested in flying spinnaker to begin with. Makes the decision easier?

 

[Hayden Watson]

I would think that meant that they could not set spinnakers but any measured jib would be ok. A genoa is still a jib isn't it. Just a really big one.

 

[EditorC22NSA]

I would think that meant that they could not set spinnakers but any measured jib would be ok. A genoa is still a jib isn't it. Just a really big one.

Not per the Catalina 22 Class Rules that clearly defines a jib vs. genoa.

 

[Jackdaw]

"20 boats competed in the Genoa Gold Fleet, 12 boats in the Genoa Silver Fleet, and boats from both of those fleets made up the 12 boat Spinnaker Fleet."

This says to me that of the 32 entries, only 12 were interested in flying spinnaker to begin with. Makes the decision easier?

In the C22 world, the national championship is a non-spin regatta. Weird but true. There is a spin race but it’s a non-event championship wise.

 

[Jackdaw]

Not per the Catalina 22 Class Rules that clearly defines a jib vs. genoa.

Indeed. Most rating rules clearly define the difference between a jib and a Genoa (overlap), and even more to the point, most OD classes describe exact sizes each sail can be.

 

[Jackdaw]

It is all about what the participating competitors want. Compared to J24, the C22 is "under keeled" in 25 mph wind.

Um a j24 in 25 knots is a wild beast. But even then, headsail choice is a tactical choice for the team. Crew weight, skill, anticipation of of the wind might do, all factor in what the boat will do.

 

[EditorC22NSA]

In the C22 world, the national championship is a non-spin regatta. Weird but true. There is a spin race but it’s a non-event championship wise.

Actually, the winner of the Spinnaker races at the Catalina 22 National Regatta is recognized as Spinnaker National Champion. It is the choice of the Class, its Board, the Organizers and its active members on how they want to manage the event.
It works...there are very few sailboat classes, and even fewer keelboat classes, that can claim they have held over 45 consecutive national championship regattas...one every year since 1973 with no misses.

 

[Jackdaw]

Actually, the winner of the Spinnaker races at the Catalina 22 National Regatta is recognized as Spinnaker National Champion. It is the choice of the Class, its Board, the Organizers and its active members on how they want to manage the event.
It works...there are very few sailboat classes, and even fewer keelboat classes, that can claim they have held over 45 consecutive national championship regattas...one every year since 1973 with no misses.

I agree. It’s an impressive run.

From your NOR
This will be the Regatta to determine the 2017 Catalina 22 National Champion. The winner of the Gold Fleet will be the National Champion. Trophies will also be awarded to the top 5 finishers in the Gold, Silver and Spinnaker Fleets.

 

[EditorC22NSA]

I agree. It’s an impressive run.

From your NOR
This will be the Regatta to determine the 2017 Catalina 22 National Champion. The winner of the Gold Fleet will be the National Champion. Trophies will also be awarded to the top 5 finishers in the Gold, Silver and Spinnaker Fleets.

Thanks for pointing out the reference in the 2017 NOR. As the Class Editor, I am the person who does the final edits of the NORs before posting, then I also post them. I did get a chuckle from your reference to "top 5 finishes" since that's not even how it is stated in the NOR. The 2017 NOR actually states "prizes will be awarded to the top three (3) boats in each fleet with five or more boats."

I understand your point...if it is not in the NOR, it probably does not matter. In the Catalina 22 Class, it does matter. If you ask the author of the 80 page Catalina 22 History Book, he will refer you to page 63 where it lists all the Catalina 22 Spinnaker Fleet Champions since 1981, when the spinnaker was approved for use at the National Championship Regatta. Since I am also the author of the Catalina 22 History Book...I can vouch for that.

Glad to have the dialogue with you. Sometimes the information shared on this SBO Forum about the Catalina 22 is incorrect when non-Catalina 22 owners chime-in. I usually don't care. However, when it is about work that I perform the for C22 Class, then I like to make sure correct information is communicated.

I respect your view that the winner of the spinnaker fleet at the C22 nationals is not THE "National Champion". However, the C22 Class does recognize the winner of the spinnaker fleet as the spinnaker national champion. The fact that it is not in the NOR does not diminish the recognition. The NOR does clarify that the winner of the Gold Fleet the C22 National Champion because you can only have one per year, and to avoid confusion with three racing fleets, and that's how the Class has decided it wants to manage the event.
Thanks.

 

[Jackdaw]

Thanks for pointing out the reference in the 2017 NOR. As the Class Editor, I am the person who does the final edits of the NORs before posting, then I also post them. I did get a chuckle from your reference to "top 5 finishes" since that's not even how it is stated in the NOR. The 2017 NOR actually states "prizes will be awarded to the top three (3) boats in each fleet with five or more boats."

I understand your point...if it is not in the NOR, it probably does not matter. In the Catalina 22 Class, it does matter. If you ask the author of the 80 page Catalina 22 History Book, he will refer you to page 63 where it lists all the Catalina 22 Spinnaker Fleet Champions since 1981, when the spinnaker was approved for use at the National Championship Regatta. Since I am also the author of the Catalina 22 History Book...I can vouch for that.

Glad to have the dialogue with you. Sometimes the information shared on this SBO Forum about the Catalina 22 is incorrect when non-Catalina 22 owners chime-in. I usually don't care. However, when it is about work that I perform the for C22 Class, then I like to make sure correct information is communicated.

I respect your view that the winner of the spinnaker fleet at the C22 nationals is not THE "National Champion". However, the C22 Class does recognize the winner of the spinnaker fleet as the spinnaker national champion. The fact that it is not in the NOR does not diminish the recognition. The NOR does clarify that the winner of the Gold Fleet the C22 National Champion because you can only have one per year, and to avoid confusion with three racing fleets, and that's how the Class has decided it wants to manage the event.
Thanks.

Agree good discussions, and as a former c22 owner and PHRF fleet captain at my club, I like to keep on top of the rules that other fleets (or of ODs that sail in those fleets) are doing. I also coach racing, and make a point to know the local rules where I’m visiting cold.

I agree that words matter. I coped that text from front page of 2017 NA championship website. The actual NOR is even more clear.

3 CLASSES
There will be two classes, plus a Spinnaker fleet:
Genoa Gold Fleet - Open to all skippers eligible to sail the Regatta. The winner will be the 2017 National Champion
Genoa Silver Fleet - Limited to skippers who have not received a first place trophy in any Catalina 22 state,
regional or national regatta.
Spinnaker Fleet - Must also be registered in either Gold or Silver Fleet.

The section 13 PRIZES that you quoted does not mention the National champion.

http://www.regattanetwork.com/clubmgmt/regatta_uploads/13665/2017_C22_Nationals_NOR.pdf

It’s understandable why there is one national champion. What if the gold winner does not sail in spin? What if she gets beat? Needlessly complex.

I’m a rules guy. I read the RSS, SIs, and NORs as a hobby. I’ve learned that there is a reason for why everything is written the way it is. It’s clear the the c22 organizing committee remains focused on being accommodating as possible to get boats on the line. That’s an admirable goal and it’s working. It can just create interesting situations like now the NAs are run, with a spinnaker capable keel boat running both spin and non-spin, with the non-spin winner being the national champ. I don’t know of any other boat that does that.

 

[EditorC22NSA]

I absolutely respect where you are coming from. I am also a US Sailing Certified Club Race Officer, and have been our local sailing club's Score Keeper since 2011. Thus, I am fascinated with the RRS, how they're presented, and their interpretation, as a side-hobby. I am also the PHRF Czar at our club, and have been recently working on changing PHRF numbers for cruising boats to balance the fleet and encourage greater participation. All this requires an appreciation and respect of the Racing Rules of Sailing. I enjoyed the chat...let's do it again soon!

 

[Jackdaw]

I am also the PHRF Czar at our club, and have been recently working on changing PHRF numbers for cruising boats to balance the fleet and encourage greater participation. All this requires an appreciation and respect of the Racing Rules of Sailing. I enjoyed the chat...let's do it again soon!

That's interesting. Are you modifying the actual ratings of boats (golf handicap style), or somethings else? We have two PHRF fleets at WYC, the non-spin is about twice the size as the much more competitive spin fleet. We'd like more boats to 'graduate' to spin if they have the crew to do it, but if they do they show up and finish DFL every race. Most end up going back to non-spin. Not sure what to do to make it fun for them, but not penalize existing boats.

 

[JimInPB]

That’s interesting. J is a flag that I have not seen flown before. I am familiar with O & R being used to denote rule changes at different wind strengths in some classes, but I have not seen the J in use.

The SI can be used to alter almost anything in the RRS if the SI is written correctly & if the change does not specifically conflict with certain class rules. As was already mentioned, a notice board change can have a similar effect, assuming that the SI stated the way in which it can be done. I have seen SI’s even state that verbal changes can be made by the RC on the course up to the prep flag deployment, but that sort of thing can get very messy. I actively avoid that sort of thing when writing SI’s.

The PRO can find himself in a tough spot sometimes when trying to make calls that please the competitors. I recall one high level Star race where the PRO got quite an ear full from several noteworthy competitors after scratching a race in building conditions with 23 knots clocked on my anemometer during the starting sequence. The previous year, the same PRO had started a race in the same regatta at the same location with 26 knots clocked shortly after the start & then saw 5 boats dismasted out of a fleet of roughly 60. I would have enjoyed sailing that race in those conditions, but I can’t find fault with the PRO for making that call. Not everyone is a glutton for punishment the way that I used to be. Surprisingly to me, 4 of the 5 dismasted boats were back on the starting line the following morning.

I was surprised to see how loosely things can sometimes be handled at the Nationals level, even for large & well established fleets like J-boats. The World races & even the Hemisphere races are usually a little more by the book. Anytime an IRO is involved, things are very likely to be tightly controlled & well thought out. A lot more things can happen at nationals level. It can be interesting to watch

 

[Jackdaw]

That’s interesting. J is a flag that I have not seen flown before. I am familiar with O & R being used to denote rule changes at different wind strengths in some classes, but I have not seen the J in use.

The SI can be used to alter almost anything in the RRS if the SI is written correctly & if the change does not specifically conflict with certain class rules. As was already mentioned, a notice board change can have a similar effect, assuming that the SI stated the way in which it can be done. I have seen SI’s even state that verbal changes can be made by the RC on the course up to the prep flag deployment, but that sort of thing can get very messy. I actively avoid that sort of thing when writing SI’s.

The PRO can find himself in a tough spot sometimes when trying to make calls that please the competitors. I recall one high level Star race where the PRO got quite an ear full from several noteworthy competitors after scratching a race in building conditions with 23 knots clocked on my anemometer during the starting sequence. The previous year, the same PRO had started a race in the same regatta at the same location with 26 knots clocked shortly after the start & then saw 5 boats dismasted out of a fleet of roughly 60. I would have enjoyed sailing that race in those conditions, but I can’t find fault with the PRO for making that call. Not everyone is a glutton for punishment the way that I used to be. Surprisingly to me, 4 of the 5 dismasted boats were back on the starting line the following morning.

I was surprised to see how loosely things can sometimes be handled at the Nationals level, even for large & well established fleets like J-boats. The World races & even the Hemisphere races are usually a little more by the book. Anytime an IRO is involved, things are very likely to be tightly controlled & well thought out. A lot more things can happen at nationals level. It can be interesting to watch

Indeed. That's why I was looking for the SIs for the event. Always interest in wording. The last thing you want is a protestable RC call.

But was you know, even if not in the printed SIs, a posting on the official race board could have notified the fleet about the so-called J flag rule, and the RC's intent to fly it the next day. This way the team could have headed out with their jibs hanked on.

 

[JimInPB]

...
But was you know, even if not in the printed SIs, a posting on the official race board could have notified the fleet about the so-called J flag rule, and the RC's intent to fly it the next day. This way the team could have headed out with their jibs hanked on.

Actually, I don't know that. I don't know the class rules for that boat. I didn't read those specific SI's. I don't know what weight is carried by a posting on the board in the absence of clarification in the SI. Do the class rules cover that?

 

[EditorC22NSA]

That's interesting. Are you modifying the actual ratings of boats (golf handicap style), or somethings else? We have two PHRF fleets at WYC, the non-spin is about twice the size as the much more competitive spin fleet. We'd like more boats to 'graduate' to spin if they have the crew to do it, but if they do they show up and finish DFL every race. Most end up going back to non-spin. Not sure what to do to make it fun for them, but not penalize existing boats.

Yes...modifying the PHRF adjustment factors - such as credit for all cruising (Dacron) sails, roller furler, prop, and a few others. This is only being done for the cruising PHRF fleet with a base rate of 188 or higher, where you get a few boats that dominate the racing. So, inching up the ratings for most boats, and lowering the ratings for the few who consistently dominate to increase the competitiveness of the overall cruising boat fleet.