Installing gfi making me crazy

Apr 20, 2016
8
Hunter 37 Cutter Chesapeake City, MD
I decided to install gfi on my new (to me) 1984 37c. How hard can it be? Then I found that I need captive connectors. I can't find any gfi outlets that are compatible. They all have a small post and screws that do not screw out (by design). Grinding the posts are easy enough, but the freaking screws are making me nuts. Any know of any gfi outlets that may be compatible?

Thanks
 
May 20, 2016
3,014
Catalina 36 MK1 94 Everett, WA
in the past for non marine use I've just kept unscrewing the side and ground screws - they get a bit stiff at the end but come out -- they go back in ok also. If that "bothers" you - an article on west marine web site states


Flanged spade terminal
For permanent termination when terminal screw is captive. ABYC recommends: “Terminal connectors shall be of the ring or captive spade types.” E-11.16.3.4 https://www.westmarine.com/WestAdvisor/Marine-Wire-Terminal-Tech-Specs
 
May 20, 2016
3,014
Catalina 36 MK1 94 Everett, WA
bare wires on a switch in residential wiring is just fine - on a boat it doesn't meet ABYC standards. The side and ground screws are captive on most GFI's so spade terminals with the turned up ends of appropriate size meets ABYC standards according to that article.
 
Jan 22, 2008
8,050
Beneteau 323 Annapolis MD
On the boat, snip the ring terminal and bend it enough to fit over the screw. Tighten the screw, and make sure the ring has flattened under it.
 

Alctel

.
Dec 13, 2013
264
Hunter 36 Victoria
Yeah for mine I just kept unscrewing the screws until the captive part broke and they came out
 
Jun 11, 2011
1,243
Hunter 41 Lewes
bare wires on a switch in residential wiring is just fine - on a boat it doesn't meet ABYC standards. The side and ground screws are captive on most GFI's so spade terminals with the turned up ends of appropriate size meets ABYC standards according to that article.
If you look closely at the pictures of the particular GFI receptacle I sent you will notice there are holes in the back which allow you to insert the bare wire to be clamped against two plates. This is no different than using a wire terminal with a cinch plate. A solder less terminal and then a screw is two connection failure points, bare wire clamped between a terminal is only one potential failure point. I don't know what the ABYC is thinking sometimes and that goes for the NEC too.
 
May 20, 2016
3,014
Catalina 36 MK1 94 Everett, WA
I believe they are thinking that in either rings or captive spades the retaining screw needs to be very vert loose or off the appliance before you have a loose wire waving around

Btw I did look at the referenced link which prompted my comment. Your boat your choice

Les
 
Oct 22, 2014
21,098
CAL 35 Cruiser #21 moored EVERETT WA
If you want a higher quality unit. Look for the "Hospital Grade" model. They are specifically designed for a harsher environment than your home bathroom. They cost more.
 
Apr 20, 2016
8
Hunter 37 Cutter Chesapeake City, MD
I want to go with ring terminals and may try to clean the threads after I forceably remove the screw. If that doesn't work, I will try Ron20234's idea.
 

DaveJ

.
Apr 2, 2013
451
Catalina 310 Niagara-on-the-Lake
New
On the boat, snip the ring terminal and bend it enough to fit over the screw. Tighten the screw, and make sure the ring has flattened under it.

Not a good idea, for the home or the boat. That ring terminal is now compromised and would not pass an ABYC inspection. I would suggest cutting off the ring terminal and add a captive spade connector, crimped with the appropriate tool. I would be the first to admit that I have cut corners at times, but I would not recommend others to cut corners.
 
Jan 22, 2008
8,050
Beneteau 323 Annapolis MD
Not a good idea, for the home or the boat. That ring terminal is now compromised.

It's not to cut away any of the ring, just to slice it to get over the screw head. It is still fully circled.
 
Jun 11, 2011
1,243
Hunter 41 Lewes
I had the wire burn completely off the ring terminal that came from the breaker in my aft cabin and was landed on the 120V AC panel Neutral bus. No conductive compound in the crimp. Time, heat, vibration, expansion and contraction. All very bad things especially on the light weight alloy that is a crimp connector. I have watched water boil in manholes while the breaker will never tripped because there is enough resistance to keep it energized. Granted it's at 480V but it's all relative. With all electric it is actually measured as heat over time to induce a trip. I think crimp on terminals are an accident waiting to happen. There must always be a conductive compound inside before the crimp is made to reduce heat from a poor connection and they need to be checked regularly. I would rather replace everyone with a terminal strip that is properly designed to cinch the wire between two flat, perhaps textured, surfaces.
 
Feb 6, 1998
11,667
Canadian Sailcraft 36T Casco Bay, ME
I think crimp on terminals are an accident waiting to happen.
They can be, if you use incorrect tooling and techniques, and far too many do. There are millions & millions of crimps on every aircraft in the air today. NASA and the US Military use them almost exclusively as does the automotive industry and just about every industry out there.

There must always be a conductive compound inside before the crimp is made to reduce heat from a poor connection and they need to be checked regularly.
If you have any evidence from crimp terminal manufacturer that supports this claim I would love to see it. If you have any scientific white papers or study's relating to this practice I'd also love to see those. Most crimp terminal manufacturers, including AMP/Tyco, Molex etc. suggest proper tooling, proper wire preparation, clean wire and no solder or added compounds.. In both AMP and Molex training, I've attended both, they specifically advised against any of these compounds inside the crimp band.

Ok to put them on after the crimp is executed, coating the bus bar etc, but no crimp manufacturer I know of specifically advises any terminal or conductive grease inside the crimp terminal. The only science based evidence I have found is that these compounds, in the salt water environment, only create more issues that tend to solve. This is due to adding yet another alloy to the mix which leads to galvanic corrosion issues. With a proper crimp, using the right tooling, the wire is cold formed creating what is know as a "gas tight" crimp or as AMP refers to it as an "near electrically invisible" termination.. Sadly far too many folks are using sub par tooling when they make crimp terminations. If I had a dime for every professional or DIY I have seen who only owns one crimp tool I'd be retired. To do my job properly requires in excess of $5K in crimp tooling. I choose to use aerospace grade tooling that can make NASA or Mil-Spec level terminations. Heck just a set of "locators" for my Daniels AFM8 tool run close $130.00 for one specific set of M/F miniture or sub-min pins..

I would rather replace everyone with a terminal strip that is properly designed to cinch the wire between two flat, perhaps textured, surfaces.
In my experience, which is marine based, I would say this is not going to as well as a properly made crimp termination for marine use.. Bare wire pinched between two plates generally holds up only marginally in the marine environment and allows corrosion to wick up the wire.

Your penchant against crimping is possibly because you're used to solid conductor wire or heavy strand wiring which was really never intended for crimped termination. AMP, Molex etc. do make terminals and tooling for heavy stranding and even some for solid but these are not terminals you'll find at your local stores..

With the fine strands we use in the marine space the wire can further compress, after you've torqued it between the plates, and this can lead to high resistance. Proper crimp tooling compresses the stranding and crates cold flow cold formed terminations. Even solder will not flow into the crimp-band of a properly made crimp..


Sub par tooling will not accomplish this so let's not lump all crimp terminations into one basket..
 
May 20, 2016
3,014
Catalina 36 MK1 94 Everett, WA
Thanks Maine Sail. Before I started reading your site I would have tended to agree with uncledom. But then I purchased quality crimp tool and marine wire (in place of automotive) things got better. They got much better after dumping my supply of Harbor Freight crimps.

I'm interested on your opinion. Captured Spade, cut ring, or breaking the capture on the screws??
 
Feb 6, 1998
11,667
Canadian Sailcraft 36T Casco Bay, ME
Thanks Maine Sail. Before I started reading your site I would have tended to agree with uncledom. But then I purchased quality crimp tool and marine wire (in place of automotive) things got better. They got much better after dumping my supply of Harbor Freight crimps.

I'm interested on your opinion. Captured Spade, cut ring, or breaking the capture on the screws??

A captured fork terminal meets the marine standards just fine. You can also back out the screw & use rings. I do carry 8-32 & 10-32 dies in my bag to chase the screw threads before re-installing. Takes but a few seconds to use rings. I generally use hospital grade outlets & GFCI's with nickel plated wipes, not home center grade, unless the owner already bought them....
 
Jun 5, 2010
1,107
Hunter 25 Burlington NJ
In general I don't care if the 115vac system does or doesn't meet ABYC, for the simple reason that, by design, there should be nothing about the 115vac system that can sink the boat when away from a dock. When at a dock, plugged-in, the 115vac system has only to behave as a shorebound system; so, again, it's inconsequential. Your breakers had better be able to handle rusting connections and household-grade fittings; that's what the breakers are for. When one pops, inspect the circumstances and replace the faulty fittings.

On my boat I used an industrial-grade 12-gauge extension cord for the 115vac line and load wires. This was appropriately stripped back and fitted with marine-quality heat-shrink terminals, thus sealing the plain-copper stranded wire from airborne salt corrosion. The outlets, including the first-in-line GFCI one, are household grade from Lowe's. If any of these go bad, they're cheap and easy to replace. Nothing plugged into them can, by depriving it of power, sink the boat or catch fire.

The discussion about the stubborn screws not wanting to come loose on the household fittings is entirely valid. I used bent-end fork terminals, not ring terminals, and slid them all in from the back, thus not having to remove the screws. All of the outlet boxes are the deeper ones (14 ci) to facilitate this. The one that backs into the lazzarette area I sealed with electrical tape and RTV silicone to keep it from sparking above the (gasoline) fuel tank (as though it even would). I did the same thing with the inlet fitting in the cockpit coaming (which I'd worry about more).

This system has proven very reliable for 15-amp service, as I have only a microwave, a charger for the cordless drill's battery, two other outlets and the boat's own ProMariner charger. I don't use the battery charger and the microwave at the same time. The only other inconvenience has been that I can't use the heat gun (for heat-shrink terminals) with the big box fan on.

I don't have a generator or inverter but concede that a better grade of electrical fittings would be appropriate when relying on onboard 115vac while staying away from the dock or underway at sea.
 

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Sep 2, 2011
1,041
Hunter 27 Cherubini Alum Creek State Park
A captured fork terminal meets the marine standards just fine. You can also back out the screw & use rings. I do carry 8-32 & 10-32 dies in my bag to chase the screw threads before re-installing. Takes but a few seconds to use rings. I generally use hospital grade outlets & GFCI's with nickel plated wipes, not home center grade, unless the owner already bought them....
Having just spent several days in the hospital for the first time in my life, I took a close look at the hospital grade outlets in my room and was very impressed with their quality.
Where does one look to find them for sale at retail?