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Hunter356 keel top layer breaks off

Discussion in 'Ask A Hunter Owner' started by hunter356, Mar 4, 2018. Add this thread to a FAQ

  1. hunter356

    hunter356

    Joined Jul 23, 2004
    4 posts, 0 likes
    Hunter 356
    DE DE
    Hi,

    I just discovered that my fathers Hunter 356 (model 2002) has damages at the keel which appeared during the winter. The cause is unknown but speculatively could be a previously hidden damage from 5 years ago with a vertical grounding (due to a wave) while anchoring in shallow sandy water. Earlier, no damage was visually detected.

    It looks like that the top layer of the keel breaks of.
    • Is this the line where the keel stub and keel are connected?
    • How could this happen? Through penetrating water which then froze in the winter in the dry dock? Could the water enter from the bilge over the keel bolts?
    • How is the keel stub sealed to the keel?
    • What material is used for covering the core of the keel?
    • How can this be repaired? Has anybody repaired a similar damage?
    (In recommendation of the cruisersforum.com I also post this information here for expert feedback from hunter owners.)
    Thanks for your hints!

    Jens
    hunter 356 keel damage  - view behind 1.jpg hunter 356 keel damage  - view behind 2.jpg hunter 356 keel damage  - view behind 3.jpg hunter 356 keel damage  - view front port.jpg hunter 356 keel damage  - view front starboard.jpg
     


  2. Don S/V ILLusion

    Don S/V ILLusion

    Joined Sep 25, 2008
    4,991 posts, 241 likes
    Alden 50
    US Sarasota, Florida
    Speculating isn't usually a good idea. It could be a hard grounding, ice damage, etc...
    I'd suggest you check the keel bolt torque, sound the keel and then open it up where cracked to see if it's simple delamination or water/ice intrusion. You need to open it up anyway to remove loose material and check for water damage causing rust to the internal webbing which would weaken the rudder shaft bond.

    The keel is most often glassed in before attaching it to the stub.
     


  3. Ted

    Ted

    Joined Jan 26, 2005
    1,018 posts, 147 likes
    C&C 110
    US Bay Shore, Long Island, NY
    Don, it's keel damage not rudder. There is no internal webbing in the keel.
     


  4. Don S/V ILLusion

    Don S/V ILLusion

    Joined Sep 25, 2008
    4,991 posts, 241 likes
    Alden 50
    US Sarasota, Florida
    Ooooops. Senior moment...
     


  5. shemandr

    shemandr

    Joined Jan 1, 2006
    3,370 posts, 492 likes
    Marblehead Skiff 14'
    US Greenport, NY
    In the fourth pic, the line along the keel approximates the joint between the keel and stub that it attaches to. That crack is not overly concerning. In the first two pics, I think that is fairing that has broken away. That is the aft part of the keel? Hard to imagine hitting an object caused that. In a hard grounding the aft part of the keel can be driven up and rearwards. You might see damage like that. But my money is on freeze damage.
    Keel stub is attached to the keel with bolts, of course, and 5200 in most cases. On my H356 there was barrier coating and bottom paint on the keel. No fiberglass on the keel itself. While you may get away with grinding the fairing down, and maybe some of the keel stub fiberglass, you may want to lift the boat off the keel and get it right. I would get your insurance adjuster out there and see what they are willing to do. If the damage goes into the laminate of the stub you could have structural weakness. Adjusters would call this "Fiberglass work" and allow $12,000 to $15,000 for it - and remember the rig has to come down. If the yard manager seems at all hesitant about lifting the boat off the keel, I would launch it and drive it to a facility that knows what it's doing.
     


  6. Hunter Ad Bot

    Hunter Ad Bot

    Joined Oct 27, 2016
    0 posts, 10 likes
    US Seattle
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  7. Franklin

    Franklin

    Joined Jul 20, 2005
    2,383 posts, 101 likes
    Hunter 376
    US Kemah, Tx
    Just a guess, but I think the hard grounding may have caused a very small crack in the glass allowing water in. Then it sitting on the hard and the water freezes causing the glass to burst open.

    Hunter does not use 5200. They use an epoxy filler in house mix. They believe this gives it a stronger connection and the filler gives the epoxy a little flexibility. It looks and acts like 5200 but isn't, according to Hunter.

    I would drop the keel. Grid away all the bad glass, relay new glass and then re-attach the keel with 5200 (lots of it). Of course, do all the griding, cleaning and leveling of the matting surfaces and bolts before re-attaching. Then bolt it down to specs and then re-check the torque a week later, a month later and after a decent amount of sailing too.

    When done you will feel good about your keel again.
     


  8. chuckwayne

    chuckwayne

    Joined Mar 20, 2004
    1,400 posts, 33 likes
    Hunter 356 and 216
    US Portland, ME
    Shemandr has it right - according to Hunter the keel is bedded with 5200 and bolted to the stub - the "smile" in the later pics is the joint. On Escape the joint is faired with polyester fairing compound over about 4". I suppose on some boats there may be more, possibly from mfg or pre-delivery damage. It's very brittle, so cracks don't always mean structural issues. The keel is solid lead, and I've never seen a 356 with that much "stuff" around the joint - it looks like glass added and delaminated from the lead, possibly from water penetration and freeze, or stress from the impact. As Franklin said, you need a surveyor to assess the damage and whether or not all that stuff is there for a reason.
     


  9. seadaddler

    seadaddler

    Joined Dec 19, 2006
    5,328 posts, 109 likes
    Hunter 36
    US Punta Gorda
    I also was surprised at all that glass oe what ever coming off a lead keel.
    Nick
     


  10. Crazy Dave Condon

    Crazy Dave Condon

    Joined Jun 8, 2004
    6,355 posts, 485 likes
    -na -NA
    US Anywhere USA
    As a former dealer, the keel is lead either in a wing keel or what I call a fin or deep keel that was bolted up to the hull with 5200 as marine putty is not recommended vs. 5200.. They used the slow or seven day cure. If I recall, the keel was bolted on which generally fit the hull allowing for fairing if needed but not that far down. I am surprised to see the fiberglass on the aft portion of the keel and wonder if that keel had been damaged in the past where lead was as some would say chunked out and basically all you can do to repair any missing lead is to apply fiberglass. We do not know the history of the boat. However I concur water got in and froze seeing now what is going on. My two cents worth.
     


  11. Franklin

    Franklin

    Joined Jul 20, 2005
    2,383 posts, 101 likes
    Hunter 376
    US Kemah, Tx
    "With regard to the keel seam, for reference, please note the attached generic SOP used by Hunter Marine for keel installation. The sealant used was West Systems Epoxy, not 5200. Any sealant on the backing plates was from epoxy squeezing up into the bilge."

    That is from Hunter and they sent me the SOP document (see below), so I'll take their word for it.

    Page 1 of 2 STANDARD OPERATING PROCEDURE FOR BOAT KEELING (2-14-05) The following procedures are to be followed by all employees at Hunter Marine Corporation to help ensure that our boats are keeled safely and properly. 1. Roll boat forward on the work cradle out of the assembly and into the keeling bay, just outside the building. 2. Rope off the area around the boat with yellow rope, hang sign in door and each side of keeling bay specifying: Keep out / Hoisted Load / Hard Hat Area. 3. Ensure the shipping cradle for the boat being keeled is on the keel pad. 4. Position safety cones on either side of the bow of the boat that read Keep out/ Hoisted Load / Hard Hat Area. 5. Put on Hardhat. It must be worn for the rest of this process! 6. Lower the forward and aft hoist, allowing lifting beam to lower just above deck height. Position a ladder at the transom of the boat ( ladder must be tied off any time operator goes up or down it.) 7. Move a ladder to the side of the boat being keeled. Run lifting straps under boat and use ladder to pull strap up and connect to lifting beam hook. 8. Connect both lifting straps on each side of the boat being lifted with nylon rope, taking care not to wrinkle strap (lifting strap must be flat against the hull and not twisted). 9. Be sure to protect the water line of the boat from the straps at the 4 contact points by adding a piece of foam back vinyl between lifting strap and water line- put tension on straps and Stop! 10. Walk around the entire boat to ensure lifting straps are not caught on any deck hardware or the work cradle, also ensure straps are not twisted. 11. Lift boat until in reaches keeling height, attach safety straps – they must be snug to the hull. Remove the work cradle. 12. Check top of keel with the bolt pattern to ensure keel studs are placed correctly on the keel. 13. Take pattern and hold up to bottom of keel sump and mark keel stud locations. 14. Drill out marked areas with air drill, with designated drill bit and hole saw. 15. Call for forklift driver to deliver keel under hoisted boat. 16. Loosen safety straps enough to lower boat down on top of keel. 17. Retighten the safety straps / they should be tight against the hull. 18. Ensure ladder is tied off to transom and go up into the inside of the boat and check keel sump, that keel studs are unobstructed and that backing plates and nuts can be installed. 19. Go back down to ground and raise boat, just high enough to clear keel studs with the exception of the aft stud. Leave the aft stud just inside the hole. This will keep the boat aligned with the keel. 20. Tighten safety straps snug to the hull. 21. Wipe the keel sump of the boat and the top of the keel with acetone on a cloth rag. 22. Mix West systems epoxy with cabosil in a l gallon bucket. 23. Apply epoxy on the entire top of the keel surface at least ½ inch thick. 24. Loosen the safety straps just enough to lower boat down until keep sump of hull contacts top of keel, squeezing out epoxy. 25. Tighten safety straps snug against hull. 26. Go back up into the boat install back-up plates and nuts onto keel studs. Impact nuts with air impact until tight. 27. Clean up excess epoxy and anti – seize in keep sump. 28. Go back down below and smooth and clean off epoxy squeeze out. 29. Take scrap floor paper and spread out excess epoxy to ensure it does not heat up and cause a fire. Page 1 of 2 Epoxy Preparing: 1. 3 chemical materials, EPOXY RESIN 105, EXTRA SLOW HARDENER 209 AND AMORPHOUS SILICA. They will be compound and mixed together in correct ratio for epoxy around keel. The epoxy compound should be carefully prepared. 2. Mix Epoxy as per the instruction on the manufacturer’s label. 3. Use mixer to mix silica into epoxy, until the compound looks like white putty-state. 4. The epoxy is ready to spread on the top section of the keel. ( Hunter 49 Deep Keel ). Reference: 1. Epoxy Safety Guideline, West System. Inc 2. Cold Temperature Bonding, West System. Inc 3. Epoxy Resin 105 Safety Data Sheet, West System. Inc 4. Extra Slow Hardener 209 Safety Data Sheet, West System. Inc Fig 5. AMORPHOUS SILICA is as filler to add to liquid epoxy compound. Fig 4. EPOXY RESIN 105 Fig 7. EXTRA SLOW HARDENER 209 will be mixed with EPOXY RESIN 105, STIRS WHEN MIXING WITH EPOXY RESIN. Generic Epoxy and Coating Procedure (02-12-08) Fig 6. Add AMORPHOUS SILICA container then use mixing bit to stir the entire bucket of compound Please Read Epoxy Safety Data Sheet Before Processing any Epoxy Preparing Page 2 of 2 Fig 8. Wipe out excess epoxy around contact areas then allow epoxy to be cured. Fig 9. Sand and scuffing keel contact area Fig 10. After sanding, epoxy surface is to be smooth. Clean up the entire keel. Fig 11. Paint the entire keel and keel sump Generic Epoxy and Coating Procedure Sanding The Keel 1. Wait until the epoxy has thoroughly cured. 2. You will need to wear a respirator . 3. Sand keel sump to a fair and smooth surface, using a D/A sander with a 40 grit sanding pad. ( Additional layer of epoxy may be needed to make surface fair) 4. Grind everywhere the epoxy was spread. Painting Procedures 1. See “Inter protect 2000E” data sheet & instruction manual. 2. Blow off the keel and the sump, using an O.S.H.A. approved air nozzle. 3. Wipe the keel and sump using a damp acetone rag. 4. Tape off the top of the sump, about 1-1/2" from the forward and aft ends and about 3" from the sides. 5. Mix of Interlux 2000E to Interlux 2001E in 3 to 1 ratio. 6. Note: (This will be enough to paint 2 keels and 2 rudders) 7. Each need to be 10 mil thick (use mil gauge when coating). 8. Three coats are needed, letting each coat cure before applying the next coat. 9. Pull the tape after the third coat. Page 2 of 2 STANDARD OPERATING PROCEDURE FOR BOAT KEELING (2-14-05) 30. Retrieve shipping cradle with boat mover; lift boat up high enough for shipping cradle to be moved under it. Tighten safety straps snug against the hull. 31. Position shipping cradle under lifted bloat ensuring that keel is in center of the cradle. 32. Loosen safety straps and lower hull into shipping cradle, taking care to adjust height of pads. 33. Lift shipping cradle with hull up with the Mule high enough to install cradle stands at each corner of the shipping cradle. 34. Lower the Mule until hull and shipping cradle are resting on stands and the Mule is now clear of the shipping cradle. Drive Mule out from under shipping cradle. 35. Remove safety straps and lifting straps from boat using ladder. 36. Raise lifting fixture as high as it will go. 37. Remove cones and ropes. There is now no hoisted load. Make sure that when keeling boat, rope off keeling bay. With signs to be hung stating, “KEEP OUT HOISTED LOAD HARD HAT AREA” Be sure that when keeling, you use safety straps at all times. Be sure to adjust straps at each stage of lifting boat. Place Orange cone at the bow of the boat during Keeling. Page 1 of 5 Generic Keeling Procedure Drill Press Operating The drill press is used for keeling only, the press is driven by air. Hook up air hose to control valve. The handle shows in driving position as shown in this picture. Always disconnect air hose when the press is not used. This drill press turn controls levels of drill bit ( hole saw) during operating. Do not drill mounting with extreme hard pressing on glass, otherwise tools may be damaged. Always drill holes with lower speed. Page 2 of 5 Generic Keeling Procedure Shoal Keel Installation Keeling Process: Process Time: 1. This procedure uses Hunter 27 keeling procedure as an example. 2. Before you start keeling, safety comes first concern. Make sure you following safety instruction. 3. Wear you hard hat all the time, Sanding outside keel sump area to be smooth.( keel attachment face). 4. Get into main cabin keel sump area, ensure that drill locations are clear. 5. Place keel root template ( plywood) onto the outside keel sump bottom face, this might require 2 persons to hold the template. ( one is in front the other is aft of template). 6. There are 5 x ø 7/8” and 2 x ø5/8” through holes on plywood template, the size of thru holes varies, depends on sizes of keel. At this time, make sure you have the right plywood template for the boat. Mount the keel template on bottom of keel sump embossment and mark mounting hole location. 7. Use designated drill press to drill mounting holes, before you start drilling, ensure the drill press is set-up properly. 8. Drill 5 x 5/8” through holes and 2 x 1/2” through holes onto bottom face of keel sump.( aft 2 holes need more deeper, 8” thread stud). 9. Remove template from keel sump then clean up the bottom of keel sump. 10. Load and unload keel to under keel sump.( thread studs should be match to keel sump through holes). 11. Since keel is in position then you can start to lower the boat so through holes on bottom keel sump will slide to thread studs of the keel so keel sump bottom lay onto top section of keel. ( might lowering and uppering the boat several times, Do Not Damage thread studs during operating!). 12. Lift the boat up then ready for epoxying. 13. Mixture of epoxy resin 105, Extra Slow Hardener 209 and cabin sealant will be applied. 14. Use epoxy to Patch on entire top section of keel.( epoxy thickness approx 1/2”) 15. Lower the boat’s keel sump onto keel top. Insure that keel sump fits good to keel) 16. Get into main cabin keel sump area to secure keel to hull. 17. Slide all designated backing plates ( 1/4” thick s/s plate )into thread studs then fasten designated nuts to bolts. 18. Torque specification to meet QA standard: 5/8”= 97 ft./lbs and 1/2”=45 ft./lbs. 19. Wipe out excess epoxy from keel sump area. Allow the epoxy to be cured. 20. After epoxy is cured, start to scuffing the epoxy surface. 21. Sanding epoxy surface (to smooth the surface and shape, sanding bubble down) 22. Clean up entire keel surface with water then allow it to dry. 23. Use masking tape to around keel sump area ( edge). 24. Use designated color paint to paint on entire keel. Documented By: Michael Hsieh Documented Date: 11/09/2004 Approved By: Revised Date: 2-3-06 (Rev_B) Page 3 of 5 H27 Keeling Shoal Keel Installation Fig 1. H27 keel template Fig 2. Match template onto keel studs. 5x #5/8 and 2x#1/2 J-hook studs Fwd Fig 3. Sand bottom keel sump face to smooth out. Fig 4. Lower boat so keel sump through holes will slide to studs Fig 5. Apply epoxy onto entire top section area of keel Fig 6. Lower boat onto keel so epoxy will seal the contact surface Page 4 of 5 H27 Keeling Shoal Keel Installation Fig 7. Place backing plates to studs then fasten designated nuts Fig 8. Use air wrench to secure nuts to thread studs. Fig 9. Wipe out excess epoxy around contact areas then allow epoxy to be cured. Fig 10. Sand and scuffing keel contact area Fig 11. After sanding, epoxy surface is to be smooth. Fig 12. Paint the entire keel. Page 5 of 5 H27 Keeling Stage In Progress Checks No Check box check locations and details 1 Inside keel sump area, insure that thread studs are not damaged. 2 Insure that all backing plates are correct 3 after epoxy sanding, insure that surface smooth out and no air trapped in epoxy 4 Insure that other damages on keel has been fixed before painting. 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 Hull # ____________________________ Date:_____/_____/_______ Time Start :____________ Time Complete:______________ Team Leader Signature:_________________________ Keel installation: Rudder Installation: No Check box check locations and details 1 Inside keel sump area, ensure that thread studs are not damaged. 2 Ensure that all backing plates are correct 3 after epoxy sanding, insure that surface smooth out and no air trapped in epoxy 4 Insure that other damages on keel has been fixed before painting. 5 6
     


  12. CharlieSea

    CharlieSea

    Joined Dec 22, 2012
    55 posts, 3 likes
    Hunter 356
    US Coral Gables, FL
    It would be good to see pictures of the rest of the keel. That might give some idea as to how hard it grounded/hit. If it is the shoal draft the wings may be damaged. The drawings from Hunter show the keel sump is not flat but is high at the front and high at the back with a bilge in the middle. Look at the .pdf drawing of the keel included.
     

    Attached Files:



  13. Crazy Dave Condon

    Crazy Dave Condon

    Joined Jun 8, 2004
    6,355 posts, 485 likes
    -na -NA
    US Anywhere USA
    I use to watch the boats being built. That is what I saw but do not wish to argue plus I use to stock the entire line for years
     


  14. chuckwayne

    chuckwayne

    Joined Mar 20, 2004
    1,400 posts, 33 likes
    Hunter 356 and 216
    US Portland, ME
    Franklin,
    I don't wish to argue either but I don't think that procedure applies to the 356. First, look at the date; the 356s we're talking about were built well before that SOP was written. Second, both crazy dave and I have different info from the factory about the 356. Third, the procedure talks about the 49 and the 27 and makes no reference to applicability to other boats. Fourth, I've never seen a 356 delivered with an interprotect coated keel - they've all been delivered to the dealers as bare lead. Finally, since I've had to repair the fairing compound, it's definitely not epoxy in the joint.
     


  15. seadaddler

    seadaddler

    Joined Dec 19, 2006
    5,328 posts, 109 likes
    Hunter 36
    US Punta Gorda
    I will look back when my 36 pretty much same as 356 was brand new delivered to dealer and the keel looked pretty bare at the time before adding bottom paint, any way I have painted my keel a few times and sanded it a few times and it was lead all the way up to the hull and pretty sure I have photo's with the bare primer keel.
    I also was at the factory and watched a few keels added to hulls and the keels were all gray prime just like mine was.
    Nick
     


  16. Jerry Clark H356 SV Persi

    Jerry Clark H356 SV Persi

    Joined Mar 3, 2003
    614 posts, 41 likes
    Hunter 356
    US Grand Rivers
    I’ve had to fair my “smile”with 5200 and had my keel bolts re- torqued. They didn’t move with a big pipe in the wrench.
     


  17. seadaddler

    seadaddler

    Joined Dec 19, 2006
    5,328 posts, 109 likes
    Hunter 36
    US Punta Gorda
    So Jerry are you saying you used 5200 to fill in the smile or say the crack along the seam between
    the keel and hull and I used 5200 when change transducers.
    My 2007 hull keel seam is like new never any problems and the only thing was a few years back had some small spots that the bottom paint did not cover as good as the rest of the keel so maybe
    6 years back resanded real heavy duty wire brush and used some kind of special prime and than botottom paint.
    But I cleaned that keel down to almost bare lead most of the keel and don’t ever coming across any fiberglass only lead.
    Back than Hunter was suppose to be changing to Iron keels but mine is lead and was delivered
    to dealer 1/1/07.
    Nick
     


  18. Franklin

    Franklin

    Joined Jul 20, 2005
    2,383 posts, 101 likes
    Hunter 376
    US Kemah, Tx
    Well, I guess that settles that. Hunter lied to me. Mine sure looks like 5200 but they swore it was a epoxy filler mix. The subject came up when I was asking the procedure to drop the keel, inspect and re-bed it. They were refusing to tell me how to do it so I had to ask how they attached the keel. Figures. I never have gotten good answers from them. Odd to considering I stick up for their boats so much.
     


  19. Jerry Clark H356 SV Persi

    Jerry Clark H356 SV Persi

    Joined Mar 3, 2003
    614 posts, 41 likes
    Hunter 356
    US Grand Rivers
    749F2D09-3FF6-41EE-A326-69886E1D8AF7.jpeg Nick: I filled my “smile crack” with 5200 when I had my last bottom job, two summers ago. When backing off the boat, the travelift hit my KVH antenna and it opened the keel at the front. We just filled it with 5200, let it cure, painted and splashed. Here is a picture before it was filled. It was just in the front. The KVH antenna was on a pole in the back, so it got a good jolt. We also had a yard guy with some muscle power put a long pipe on a wrench on my keel bolts and torque them down. None moved and he was a good sized guy. Haven’t had the boat out since then, so will take another look when I haul it out next time. I’ve also run around a few times, twice here in the mud on KY Lake and a few times on sand in GICW when we were in Punta Gorda. No fast or hard groundings, just barely stuck and able to back off. Anybody that hasn’t touched and run aground is either a liner or hasn’t sailed much!
     


  20. chuckwayne

    chuckwayne

    Joined Mar 20, 2004
    1,400 posts, 33 likes
    Hunter 356 and 216
    US Portland, ME
    I also just used 5200 to fill my "smile" I have a 3/4" drive torque wrench with a 4' length of pipe and I haven't moved the nuts either!
     


    Last edited: Mar 7, 2018
  21. seadaddler

    seadaddler

    Joined Dec 19, 2006
    5,328 posts, 109 likes
    Hunter 36
    US Punta Gorda
    Yes have run aground a few times here in Florida for sure but the worst was bringing my boat down from NY
    to Florida mostly Ocean but had to go in in North Carolina and in Pamlico Bay and ferry forced me into shallow water and ran aground and still have a dent way up front down low on my keel but so far no smile
    just last year did a new bottom job.
    So I am real puzzled at the fiberglass on HU 's keel and saw them Hunter installing keels at the factory in 2006
    and can't remember for sure what was used as a sealer on the keels.
    Nick