Hunter 37C 1980 vs 1984?

[Ed Schenck]

But seriously, I'm 6'3" leaning up against the cabin top with my feet stuck in the wheel is not what I consider proper lying down. The fact that it would be so easy to change this boat to a tiller makes me think this was in the designers head back when the thing was still on paper.[/quote]

Well you could PM or e-mail his son and ask I suppose( http://forums.hunter.sailboatowners.com/member.php?u=96873 ).

 

[rardiH36]

h37C never had cored hulls, it's all solid glass. The 36 was on the lower end and had core above water line if I recall correctly. That said, they do have cored deck (marine plywood) which need to be throughtly inspected.

- For info my 1980 Cherubini 36 hull definitely is solid FRP above the water line. No wood core anywhere that I've encountered when replacing above waterline through hulls and adding a new one.

- Not sure where the "lower end" feature is on the 36? Bow or stern or mid-ships? Somewhere else?

rardi

rardi

 

[Jim Legere]

No second guess required.

Cherubini, never met the man and wouldn't even presume to know what he was thinking. One thing I am sure of, I would be second guessing the marketing gurus at hunter, I can imagine a conversation like this:

Hunter- John this is all wrong, this boat needs a wheel!

JC- But you paid me to cram the accomdations of a forty footer into a boat that is only 37 feet long. The cockpit is too small for a wheel. There will be no proper place to lie down!

Hunter- John you knucklehead I'm paying you to design a boat I can sell. It's 1978 real American men only buy boats with 'Destroyer' steering wheels!

JC- But sir.....

Hunter- no buts John, do as you're told!

I'm a designer by trade as are most of my friends, we have all designed stupid things, not because we want too, but because that's what we were paid to do. When I remove re-core the cockpit sole which is rotten from water infiltration at the pedestal I can jut glass over the holes where the pedestal used to be. Great design!

But seriously, I'm 6'3" leaning up against the cabin top with my feet stuck in the wheel is not what I consider proper lying down. The fact that it would be so easy to change this boat to a tiller makes me think this was in the designers head back when the thing was still on paper.

I am sure you don't mean any disrespect to the man. If you had any questions about the design, we are fortunate that John Cherubini II, who is the son of the late designer, and who was often involved in the design process (in fact, worked on much of the interior design), often participates in this forum. Just ask him!

 

[ReadyAbout]

Thanks for the referral Ed. I would be very curious to know what Mr. Cherubini's son's thoughts are if he cared to chime in, but I'm not about to bother the man with my conjecture.

I wouldn't be at all surprised however, to find out the man preferred a tiller for this boat. Personally I find the cockpit (and the boat for that matter) too small for a wheel. It always kills me to see wheel steering on a thirty footer but I guess it helps the owner feel like he has a real yacht as well as providing him a cool place to mount his electronic toys.

Back in the day lot's of boats this size and bigger were designed with tillers, a great many of them even before the concept of a balanced control surface was understood. This means that a portion of the control surface is placed forward of the rotational axis and is done to lessen the amount of effort required to rotate the surface.

Once the control surface has been adjusted to the desired angle, it is the lift generated by said control surface itself that works to change the direction of the boat. The rudder pulls the stern to one side or another relative to the flow. It doesn't work on deflection as you might think, this is why your rudder has an airfoil shape instead of being flat. Deflection just causes turbulence and drag.

Do not confuse any of this with the presence of weather or lee helm which is strictly a function of the center of effort of the sail plan in relation to the center of lateral resistance generated by the underwater profile of the hull form.

Hoping to go cruising as I am, the wheel is something I would rather replace with an extra 15 gallons of fuel or whatever. Save myself having to crawl in some locker backwards to grease sheaves.

Drifting off to sleep in the cockpit, fully reclined, during a warm afternoon at anchor with a rum drink next to me stuck in a winch handle pocket, it doesn't get much better than that.

I have done it on a boat (Frers33) with a nearly identical cockpit seating plan, with my legs stuck through the wheel and resting on the helmsman's seat, my head resting on the mainsheet traveler. I've also done it on boats with six foot long bench seat. Trust me, it's about a thousand time more comfortable!

A few people have mentioned putting a tiller on this boat is beyond their imagination. I'm not asking others to do as I do, I rather prefer that others do as they please.

 

[Ed Schenck]

JC II is not likely to get into a thread with H37C in the title. Maybe you want to start a new post about Cherubini's having wheels instead of tillers. That will definitely get his attention.

One of our members did modify his rudder by shortening and then adding to the leading edge. I think it was Paul F on his H33. I looked into "Owners Mods" but did not see it there. I wonder if he has tried the emergency tiller.

Servicing the bottom of the pedestal is quite easy through the access in the quarterberth. I oil the sheaves and the cable every spring.

Not sure why taking out the wheel changes how you recline in the cockpit. The wheel does not extend gunnel to gunnel. Plenty of room between the wheel and coaming for legs. Are you wanting to extend the side lockers all the way back?

I like a tiller also. But if you sail with family and friends you can't do this(picture) on a tiller boat.

 

[ReadyAbout]

Hey that looks like fun! I'd rather be sailing right now myself. Thanks for the tip about the rudder mod, I'll check it out. No, don't want to bother JC II.

Actually, I was thinking about extending the cockpit seats, doing it like a pro all 'glass and new APU paint, the whole nine yards. This would reduce the volume of the cockpit a little bit, give me my long bench seats, and I would pick up two extra cockpit lockers where I could store my Jerry cans of fuel or whatever.

If you consider the cockpit scuppers are right there I think you might be able to do a safe propane tank installation? I haven't really investigated tank dimensions to see if they would fit, just a thought.

Aesthetically, one challenge is to have a nice transition from the horizontal seat in front to the cambered helmsman seat in the stern. Depends on what model year I end up with, the newer deck mold moved the engine panel from below the bridge deck to the port side. We will see.

I saw some owner mods on a boat in MD that included teak on the seats and some nice grating on the sole. Looked nice.

 

[sandpiper10471]

Go for it, Ready About! I would love to know how the 37C handles under tiller. Perhaps for giggles I should loosen off my cables somewhat and go for a sail with the emergency tiller. I do rather suspect, though, that as well balanced as these boats are, that my arms would be considerably longer and my shoulders demonstrative of pronounced stooping after a lengthy bash to windward in a fresh breeze. Or is that why we have autopilot?

 

[ReadyAbout]

I encourage anyone with an open mind interested to do a google search of "sheet to tiller steering" or if you are lazy you can click on the link below to an excellent web resource on the subject.

http://www.jsward.com/steering/index.shtml

If you're old fashioned and prefer to read books, check out John Letcher's "Self Steering For sailing Craft" which is an excellent read on the subject. It's chock full of freaky ideas! You can make your boat a zombie to the wind!

Or if you're really lazy you I guess you could just use that electric thingy you got, autopilot? I mean I guess if you're going around the bay, whatever.

The way I figure it, if you're arms are getting tired like that then you're doing something wrong. You should try to do things like easing the main sheet, dropping the traveller, flying the yankee instead of the staysail. Sail trim stuff, center of effort.

Either that or the boat isn't designed very well to begin with. I don't have any experience sailing one yet so I couldn't say, I'm just looking to buy one.

Riddle me this question dear forum members - is this boat so poorly designed that you can't balance out the sails in a moderate breeze in a flat sea and have it steer straight all by itself for five minutes? Really?

Another question, do members tend to prefer oversized autopilots? Do they replace them frequently?

 

[Jim Legere]

Riddle me this question dear forum members - is this boat so poorly designed that you can't balance out the sails in a moderate breeze in a flat sea and have it steer straight all by itself for five minutes? Really?

Another question, do members tend to prefer oversized autopilots? Do they replace them frequently?

The H37C is very well balanced and will happily sail to weather all day 'by herself'. Sail balance is important and, as a windvane user, I am keenly aware of it. I don't have an autopilot, so can't comment on sizing. I started out racing dingies, graduated to tiller-steered keelboats and finally ended up with the wheel on the H37C. I would never consider going back to a tiller on this boat. While I understand all your thinking and respect your preferences, I don't know of a single instance of the H37C being converted to tiller steering.

I invite you to come to Halifax and I will take you for a sail on my boat. You can try the cockpit and wheel steering 'on for size' and I think you will find it pretty comfortable for sailors 6'3" and beyond. You can even ship the emergency tiller and try if you wish. I think by your signature you are in NYC? If so, there are usually some pretty good seat sales from Newark. Or, I can give you some data on H37Cs closer to you. PM me if you are interested. Try one, you might like it!

 

[Ed Schenck]

Hey Ready, I want to take exception to your last post. Why are you writing as if we are your first time sailing students? Why the assumption that we don't know about "sheet to tiller" and balancing the boat? What has anybody written to make you so presumptuous? Good thing Blaise isn't around. He having sailed his H37C two hundred miles without a rudder. And on the way home from winning his third Florida to Mexico race.

Has anyone tried to discourage you from trying a tiller or converting the boat? Steering the H37C is never a problem in normal conditions. But when riding the tide into a narrow inlet at 9 knots surrounded by fishing trawlers I want my wheel. If you can build a rudder and tiller to handle 18000# then do it and report on it. But please don't write down to us.

 

[ReadyAbout]

Sorry guys, my comment was specifically in response to sandpiper10471's statement "Or is that why we have autopilot?" which suggested he was either unaware of the fact I was interested in converting to a tiller because of the ability to use sheet-to-tiller steering as an alternative to reliance on an autopilot or he just wasn't aware that the technique existed and didn't understand what it was. I should have said so.

Make no mistake, as I said in the beginning I am here because I appreciate the wonderful resource this online community means to someone like me. My comments were meant to educate not castigate.

Ed, respectfully I've been told I would be second guessing a 'Master", that my arms would grow long, that I was contemplating things that would one never even think of doing. None which can really be considered constructive commentary.

Most of the people I know who are sailor's tend to be pretty perceptive people with a sort of scientific objectivity when it comes to assessing new ideas. I'm frankly a little surprised.

Surprised that nobody here ever hooked up their emergency tiller and tried to sail with it as a safety training exercise. When I brought the subject up I was expecting to have a bunch of people tell me about their first hand experiences sailing this boat with the emergency tiller so that I could get a reasonable and objective assessment of the helm balance.

I also expected people to tell me they were surprised that the helm was more manageable than they expected despite the short length of the emergency tiller because I think most of you are wrong about this boat being too big or heavy for a tiller. I've been on bigger.

Instead it sounds to me like people leave the thing in the bottom of some locker assuming it will be there for them when their steering gear breaks in the middle of a narrow inlet full of commercial craft and a swift current.

I had a friend once get a flat tire, she had a tire iron but when I tried to change the wheel the tire iron was the wrong size for the nut. She had never tried to use it before. Seriously, how many of you people have even tried to mount the emergency tiller, let alone go sailing with it? Anybody? Or do you just assume it will work when you need?

Jim, thank you for your gracious offer. Traveling to what I am sure would be a wonderful ride is not really in our budget at the moment.

 

[sandpiper10471]

It was not my intention to indicate the 37C was not well balanced. She is as sweet a sailing vessel as you are likely to find. And yes, for balance purposes, you can lower the traveler, flatten the main, ease the sheet, add twist, reef etc. When I raced dinghies to windward, I always wanted about four degrees of weather helm as that generated, at least theoretically, the maximum lift. With the wheel, I am always cognizant of how far I have turned it to counteract the weather helm. Whether I am well over four degrees I never know as I haven't done the math and geometry with the wheel. However, if you ever try steering any wheeled boat by placing your hands on the spokes near the hub, you will get a sense of the leverage required by the autopilot. I suppose i am making the assumption that the far larger surface area of the rudder at four degrees of angle, traveling at about 6 knots and pushing about 18 000 pounds of boat, would be strenuous on the arms. I could be absolutely wrong! That is why I want to try it with the emergency tiller. Certainly boats far larger than ours have been raced successfully with tiller steering and the tiller does provide great leverage, being so long. The tiller certainly puts you in touch with what your boat is telling you. So perhaps the question could be raised as to why the former monohull America's Cup boats and the Volvo Opens are all wheel steered. I am sure they will save every ounce of weight they can.

 

[ReadyAbout]

A quick search of the Farr 40 forums for tiller vs wheel reveals a consensus that tiller's are for pro's (people who know what they're doing) and wheels are for owners (hacks) so why do really big racing boats have wheels and not tiller's?

Turn's out it's a lot less about weight or helm loading than you might think. It has more to do with scale and ergonomics than anything else. To prove the point look at a Farr 40, while it may weigh half as much as a Hunter 37 it has twice as much sail area and assuredly undergoes maximum dynamic pressures far far in excess of what your boat experiences. Of the Farr 40's out there most have tillers, a few have wheels.

Clearly they both steer the boat effectively but the fact pros prefer tillers tells you that they are lighter and more responsive. To make up for the loss of mechanical advantage provided by the wheel the rudder for the tiller version has slightly MORE area ahead of the rotational axis.

So what's the difference between a forty footer and a boat that is 60 or 80 feet? Most components on sailboats get bigger as boats get longer, the human form does not. When you see racing boats with really big wheels (60") it's because that diameter puts the wheel rim within arms reach of the helmsman when seated on the high side where he has the best visibility. It's not because it's some kind of really bad ass boat that needs a giant wheel to tame it.

This is why commonly you see larger boats with dual steering wheels, they are as far outboard as they need to be to accommodate the driver. At a certain point it is just awkward for people to manage a tiller because of scale issues. To drive from the high side on a boat that is 20' wide at the stern, you need a tiller extension like 14' long? It just gets a little weird.

As far as the weight issue is concerned you have to keep in mind that a 36" steering wheel represents a much SMALLER portion of the overall mass of a eighty footer when compared to the mass of a forty footer. It turns out you just don't notice the weight as much, especially when it's a tricked out all-carbon fiber wheel with Kevlar belt-drive and graphite sheaves.

People have certainly put tillers on big boats though, I remember a bunch of sixty foot B.O.C. boats from the eighties that were tiller steering. I attached an image of a current Trans Pac 52 sporting a tiller just because I think it's funny people here seem to have this notion that the Hunter 37 is too much of a beast to tame with a stick.

Personally, I like a tiller on a forty footer. You can lift it up and out of the way while at anchor and let the party begin. As far as sailing goes I really enjoy the freedom of movement you have with a tiller extension in addition to the increased responsiveness and sensitivity.

I hate being "stuck behind the wheel" but with a tiller my wife doesn't have to come up on deck and get wet just to pass me a cup of soup in the middle of the night. I can lean in the companionway and give her a kiss without letting go.

That's just me though, to each his own.

 

[Johnb]

I have tried it out and sailing with the emergency tiller is a snap. Motoring with it is a bitch.

 

[Jim Legere]

I have tried it out and sailing with the emergency tiller is a snap. Motoring with it is a bitch.

Makes sense that motoring would be a bugger. With that balanced section of the rudder right behind the prop, its like having power steering assist to put the rudder hard over port or starboard. Its bad enough to manage with the mechanical advantage of the wheel; with that metal flat bar tiller it can't be fun!

 

[ReadyAbout]

Johnb, thanks for sharing your experiment with us. Personally this type of stuff is exactly what I think of when I think of "messing about on boats" and I hope you had fun doing it.

I'm not necessarily some kind of safety squirrel but I have set the emergency tiller on other boats before and usually it was just for fun. Some boats you have to take the pedestal off to install the emergency tiller, that's no fun. Preparedness is a nice side benefit for those who care about that sort of thing.

I am very interested to know more details (sailed upwind in 7 knots breeze, moderate chop, motored back to slip on flat water, whatever) about your trip and also if you could be more specific about why "Motoring with it is a bitch" ?

When you consider it is possible to sail faster than you can motor, you should not have to work any more to make the boat go straight whilst motoring than sailing and the helm should not want to "run away from you" unless you are going in reverse.

For best handling the rudder itself should be somewhat resistant to rotating in a flow, but not unmanageable. There is a sweet spot for the how much area is forward of the rotational axis and I think in general less is considered more.

Instead I wonder if motoring being a "bitch" has more to do with turbulent flow from the prop wash producing vibration which is communicated directly to your forearm through the short metal emergency tiller?

This would make sense to me. That sounds like a bitch. It's short and made out of metal, doesn't have a hinge in it, etc. Personally, during +10k miles of short handed delivery crew experience, mostly on big racing boats equipped with proper tillers, sometimes made of wood but always with a tiller extension, it's not something for me that has EVER been a problem.

But I'm a sailor, for me personally just having to motor in the first place is a bitch, I would happily pull the motor in trade for weight and space if I didn't think a well maintained and properly working engine wasn't an important safety asset for anyone. I'm the guy who likes to sail boats into and out the slip whenever possible. It's not that hard and can be kinda fun.

Since we've established there is no practical reason, other than personal preference, to explain why anyone would choose a complicated, expensive, and heavy piece of equipment that requires an "emergency tiller" to be considered safe in favor of what some might think to be an obvious Keep It Simple Stupid no-brainer decision in favor of tiller, why did Hunter choose instead to hire Mr Cherubini to spoil a too-small cockpit with a wheel?

My wife found the following comment posted by "IslanderGuy" on a sailnet.com forum after a quick google search on the subject "tiller vs wheel". I think it's interesting when you consider tillers are a lot more common in Europe, I think someone suggested a Cayenne 41 earlier as an example of one such boat.

I don't know if I agree precisely with what he is saying, the Farr 40 sailors I mentioned earlier certainly share his views. That said I certainly have encountered a few people out there with a lot of money and absolutely no clue and don't know a single one of them who prefers a tiller.


From "IslanderGuy"-

"My take on the "Why do so many American boats have wheels" is simply...

1. Most people who buy brand new boats in America are not really sailors, just people with money looking for something new to do. (Not all, but most, as evidenced by all the new boats that never get sailed)

2. To a non-sailor, tillers are old-school and low tech. Seeing a tiller makes some people wonder if they are still using natural fiber sails and tar sealed wood hulls as well. Wheels are new and high tech and fancy. Cars have wheels, power boats have wheels, why would a sail boat be stuck in the old days of a tiller?

3. If the people with the money are turned off by the sight of a tiller, then no tillers will be installed, regardless of all the finer points either way. Most large manufacturers will go with what sells first, without regard for which would be better for this particular hull, shape, size, weight, design of boat. Only your more specialized manufacturers who tailor to the real sailors with lower volume boats will take that into account.

Not saying wheels are always bad, and tillers are always good, I think the points of what makes sense and when have already been covered by far more knowledgeable people then me. But for me, I am happy with the tiller I have, mostly because it is on the boat that I have."

 

[Johnb]

What Jim Legere said sums it up. Under power my boat tends to pull to port and that has to be constantly fought. If I had to motor a long way with the tiller I would rig a line to the end of it with maybe a couple of spare blocks and steer by tensioning it - pulling the end of the tiller to starboard.

Under sail that mostly goes away as it is just small inputs to trim the direction. Downwind sailing is as proportionately more difficult with the tiller as it is with the wheel. Lot's of hard work in a following sea.

 

[ReadyAbout]

Johnb, I am intrigued. Intrigued that you are apparently unwilling to quantify the specific details about your experiment using the emergency tiller with regards to sea state, wind speed, point of sail, etc. so that we can form an objective opinion about the boat's performance despite two requests for such information.

I am also intrigued to hear you think what Jim Legere said sums it up because what it sounds like Jim is saying is that he thinks Mr Cherubini designed a rudder that has too much area forward of the rotational axis and that as a result it wants to drive itself, but somehow only when he engine is on?

If you really agreed with Jim you would be reporting the boat wants to go in any direction but straight and that as soon as one let go of the helm while underway, the rudder would automatically seek a hard starboard or hard port position because that is what he is saying.

It sounds like Jim thinks the rudder is dynamically unstable. I personally am not one to second guess a genius like Mr Cherubini, particularly given the fact that if a major defect of the type Jim is speculating exists it would otherwise be widely reported on a boat of this age.

Instead, you say your boat pulls to port under power. I will point out that the boat and it's underwater appendages do not care if it is in a flow because it is being towed by the USCG, pushed through the water by the engine, or pulled by the lift generated by the sails. It only cares that it is in a flow.

Is your prop shaft mounted off center so that the wash only flows over on one side of the rudder and not the other? I have seen this on some old wooden boats I worked on but that was a long time ago.

If you look at the attached photo of the rudder and propeller I think it's clear that only a portion of the rudder surface is subject to turbulent flow from the prop wash and that this turbulence simultaneously affects both sides of the rudder equally. If it was all turbulent flow the rudder would be otherwise ineffectual at steering the boat under power.

I think the most likely explanation is that your boat suffers some major asymmetry which you were unaware of until you tried to use your emergency tiller. This seems entirely plausible as you normally use a wheel and don't have much of a feel for how your boat really steers.

Most people just throw a couple bungees on the tiller so their wrist doesn't hurt so bad, I don't know if I would call something like this a "bitch" though, but that's up to you. I don't think it's the boats fault someone didn't give a damn when they built it. For reference I have also attached a photo I took of the rudder head on a boat I just looked at this weekend.

Yes this thing is off by that much, it was built this way, it didn't just happen. The hole for the emergency tiller was centered on the cockpit, transom, and backstay. Obviously something is really wrong here. I am not even sure there was sufficient clearance for the emergency tiller to be installed, I couldn't find it to verify. Maybe someone else could let us know if it could?

Sounds like a pretty plausible explanation as to why your boat steers crooked. To the casual observer your boat might look staightish, but it's probably not, you just never noticed. I think this photo is an example of why Hunter's have such a reputation for poor quality.

BTW, loved the boat except for the cockpit. Bloody awful, I don't know how anybody can say it's great with a straight face. Apparently no one has ever tried to lie down and take a nap in it. I am not sure where someone would lie down exactly unless they were like four feet tall. Cockpit really would be so much more accommodating if it hadn't been spoiled by the wheel.

 

[sandpiper10471]

ReadyAbout - I really do have to agree with most of what you have said. Thanks for the treatise on the differences between tiller and wheel in regards to boat size. Makes a whole lot of sense. Now I am really excited to try out the emerg tiller.
Regarding production and marketing - I would think tiller installation would have been a whole lot cheaper than wheel, keeping the price point down. You could well be right that the purchasing public is willing to shell out a bit more for the wheel. Interesting this was never offered as an option.

 

[ReadyAbout]

Sometimes builders will offer wheel steering as optional on new racing boats normally equipped with tillers. The owners most certainly pay additional to cover the extra labor and materials required.

Since a cruising boat with a tiller is perceived as being old fashioned and somehow undesirable, all cruising boats have wheels. Because installing a wheel almost always involves some type of modification of the deck mold which you can't un-make on a production boat, tillers are not usually offered as money-saving option to said wheel equipped cruising boat.

Since they all have them, people don't really have a choice about it and they can't see that there are real cost benefits to the simplicity of a tiller.