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Hunter 260 - Big Problems - Water Ballast?

Discussion in 'Smaller Boats' started by Tyler Rippel, Sep 23, 2017. Add this thread to a FAQ

  1. Doug J

    Doug J

    Joined May 2, 2005
    1,023 posts, 32 likes
    Hunter 26
    US San Diego, CA
    Heard about the mouse pad idea. I would think it's certainly worth a try. Definitely inexpensive.

    If you are able to drop the whole thing out by removing the wing nut, that would make it a lot easier.
    The large flat bottom piece does not come off the rod.
    On mine, the assembly won't come completely off because it hits part of my trailer. The PO replaced the rubber piece, I can see a slit cut in the round rubber piece so it will slip past the rods.
     


  2. Crazy Dave Condon

    Crazy Dave Condon

    Joined Jun 8, 2004
    5,648 posts, 317 likes
    -na -NA
    US Anywhere USA
    You are correct that the gasket has to be cut to put on the flange but not sure which glue would work the best. In addition the transom problem inherent to both boats but hull to deck joint in the transom varies differently some .

    Tyler;
    Forget the darn gasket on the flange plate allowing water into the water ballast tank. It has nothing to do with what I am asking you to do in checking the boat out this weekend. I will explain later.
     


  3. walt

    walt

    Joined Jun 1, 2007
    2,980 posts, 224 likes
    Macgregor 26S Hobie TI, Capri Coronado 15
    US Denver, Colorado
    I have not been following this thread since I dont have this boat but Doug is familiar with my boat (water ballast Mac 26S) having owned it along with the Hunter. On the 26S, you can leave the valve at the bottom of the boat and the vent completely open while the boat sits in the water and as long as the vent at the top of the tank stays above water line, everything will be stable. Valve open or leaky.. no water comes in the boat. This is illustrated in the top figure in the picture. You probably also remember earlier when someone with a 23.5 had a big hole in the bottom of the hull (in the water tank location) and the boat floated just fine.

    But.. if you heavily load the boat in the area where the tank vent is - and the bottom valve leaks or is open and the vent is open or leaky.. you will flood and eventually sink the boat. The third figure shows this.

    So.. I would be surprised if improving the valve seal would have any influence on leaking when the boat is just sitting in the water (ie, in the slip). If the OP had the water come in when the boat was very heavily loaded (like a bunch of people) and the boat has a vulnerability for this.. then the valve seal would help.

    FYI, the old Mac classics do have a vulnerability for this issue when very heavily loaded in the rear where the ballast tank vent is. A working valve seal solves this issue but you can add a "pool" around the top of the valve and vent so that the outside water line never gets high enough to cause a problem.


    [​IMG]
     


    Last edited: Oct 6, 2017
  4. Tyler Rippel

    Tyler Rippel

    Joined Aug 6, 2017
    14 posts, 0 likes
    Hunter 260
    US Canton, OH Atwood Lake
    @Crazy Dave Condon I understand and plan to fully explore all you've asked me to check out, at least as much as I'm capable of this weekend, time dependent! I would like to address this issue as well and it seems like now is as good of a time as ever. Thanks again.
     


  5. Tyler Rippel

    Tyler Rippel

    Joined Aug 6, 2017
    14 posts, 0 likes
    Hunter 260
    US Canton, OH Atwood Lake
    @walt super helpful diagrans and explanation. I dont kbiw how deep the water line is compared to my ballast air valve but I will do my best to get the seal and plug replaced tomorrow nonetheless.
     


  6. flynhi4u

    flynhi4u

    Joined Oct 28, 2013
    562 posts, 111 likes
    Hunter 20
    US Lake Monroe
    Walt,
    Great diagram. That clearly explains why our next boat wont have any holes in the bottom. Been burned one too many times by water should not have came in but it did anyway. I am a firm beleiver in the KISS principle of thinking and no holes in the bottom of the hull keeps things very simple, or at least as simple as they can be.

    Sam
     


  7. Kermit

    Kermit

    Joined Jul 31, 2010
    3,581 posts, 810 likes
    Hunter 260
    US Sumter, SC Lake Murray Sailing Club, SC
    Your diagram may be correct but I wouldn’t trust open water valves as safe. It assumes flat water and no one moving around in the boat. Sloshing can be very messy. You can talk theory till the cows come home but reality is as reality does.
     


  8. Tyler Rippel

    Tyler Rippel

    Joined Aug 6, 2017
    14 posts, 0 likes
    Hunter 260
    US Canton, OH Atwood Lake
    Same here. Also, as I look at walt's last diagram, it doesn't work for the 260 as any runoff (the would-be pool) drains to the bilge.
     


  9. walt

    walt

    Joined Jun 1, 2007
    2,980 posts, 224 likes
    Macgregor 26S Hobie TI, Capri Coronado 15
    US Denver, Colorado
    I didn't follow enough of the the thread to see if the OP's water came in while sailing.. I thought it happened in a slip? Definitely have a good seal on everything while sailing as the righting moment the water provides comes from it being lifted and even if the boat does not have any issue at all in a slip, you could have leakage while heeled. You probably have a warning sticker on the boat somewhere that says you need the valve tightly closed and the vent hole sealed while sailing. Good advice to follow.

    I dont know what the Hunter water ballast setup looks like but if water does drain out of the tank into the bilge, it adds weight to the boat and that will lower the water line. If the leak is caused by the water line being too low in the first place, the problem accelerates. Fill the bilge (and assuming you have a significant leak).. the rest of the boat also fills and if you have flotation, you would be testing it. A lot of water in the bilge that can slosh around is very destabilizing of the righting moment as is a partially full water tank.

    I dont know if the valve seal is causing your problem.. but I think its a great idea that you are fixing it. Also a good idea to make sure the vent is well sealed when you want it to be.
     


    Last edited: Oct 6, 2017
  10. walt

    walt

    Joined Jun 1, 2007
    2,980 posts, 224 likes
    Macgregor 26S Hobie TI, Capri Coronado 15
    US Denver, Colorado
    A little off topic for the Hunter but the attached picture is of the Mac 26S setup. The "pool" (shown at the bottom of the other picture I posted) is something I added around the valve and vent after one time having my son (maybe 12 at the time) take care of the vent during a launch. Well... young guy forgot to close the valve and put the vent plug back in and old guy (me) didnt check on things. We had two adults and four kids in the back of the boat and it lowered the water line in the back of the boat (where the vent is also) so that the actual water level was above the vent level. Fortunately I checked before things went too far but had at least a few gallons of water in the bilge and it was coming in strong when I found this. If the vent and valve had been tightly sealed, I would have had only a very small amount of leakage. Regardless, I added the pool as dumb stuff happens..especially if there is a lot going on.

    FYI, this picture also shows how I blow the water out of the ballast tank using a low pressure 12V air mattress pump.

    [​IMG]
     


    Last edited: Oct 6, 2017
  11. Doug J

    Doug J

    Joined May 2, 2005
    1,023 posts, 32 likes
    Hunter 26
    US San Diego, CA
    :plus: on the diagrams Walt.

    Tyler correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe you indicated at around 12am all seemed OK. I assume the boat was in the water for quite some time prior. It wasn't until around 4:45am that the water was noticed. This may have been some time after you and others settled down for the night, possibly adding additional weight to the boat.
    I got the impression you are uncertain as to whether or not the ballast tank drain plug was tight. The pics you showed us of the rubber gasket looks like even if you tighten the valve and the ballast vent hole plug was not tight, with people on board, gear etc., water could potentially get into the bilge, the more water, the more weight and the faster the water would come in, if the vent plug and valve were not tight.
    I totally agree and understand if the valve is wide open and the vent plug is tight, no water will come it. (ensure never to sail with it open, because when the boat heels water will escape from the ballast tank)
    I also got the impression after the boat was back at the dock, people off, no more water intrusion, maybe because you bailed out all the water from the bilge, people off, now the vent hole was above the water line.

    My thought is simple, fix what you see is wrong (rubber gasket) maybe get a new ballast tank vent plug, test it out, see what happens! I hope it's not a leak at the transom.

    Maybe you can post some pics of the transom. The one's I've seen that leak it looked very obvious in pics there was a problem.
     


  12. Doug J

    Doug J

    Joined May 2, 2005
    1,023 posts, 32 likes
    Hunter 26
    US San Diego, CA
    It is a little unnerving that this can happen if not careful.
    Regular Guy did what you did Walt, he sealed off the area where the valve is, making a pool area. I think I may follow you guys lead and do the same. I like the technique Regular Guy used.

    DSC05260.JPG DSC05291.JPG DSC05299.JPG DSC05288.JPG
     


  13. Crazy Dave Condon

    Crazy Dave Condon

    Joined Jun 8, 2004
    5,648 posts, 317 likes
    -na -NA
    US Anywhere USA
    This is to everyone;
    First Walt, I know what may be happennning and seriously doubt the air vent or wing nut area is the culprit but spoke in length to Tyler on that and every other possiblility.. If water rose up from the bottom and not on the cabin floor in the beginning, I pretty much know the issue which most of the time could be the transom hull to deck joint which will be looked at. The second would be around the compression post. One photo sent to me from Tyler did not show any additional thru hulls added by a dealer or previous owner. In addition there is an instrument on the back of this boat. He is to perform an investigation being my eyes and ears. I was very much involved with the water ballast Hunters and will leave it at that from a dealer perspective. I will report back once I hear from him hopefully tomorrow.
     


  14. Kermit

    Kermit

    Joined Jul 31, 2010
    3,581 posts, 810 likes
    Hunter 260
    US Sumter, SC Lake Murray Sailing Club, SC
    Y’all, listen to Dave. Do what he says.
     


  15. walt

    walt

    Joined Jun 1, 2007
    2,980 posts, 224 likes
    Macgregor 26S Hobie TI, Capri Coronado 15
    US Denver, Colorado
    Hope Im not interrupting finding the cause. I dont have that boat so dont follow a lot of the details. Dave, I think you are likely right.. this probably isnt the first time you have dealt with a problem like this. Nice that you help here.

    This did turn into a side discussion on how water ballast works. Yup, Regular guy and I did about the same exact thing with that "pool". It makes the water ballast deal significantly more idiot proof.. The gasket may not be what is causing the problem here but it is a maintenance thing. Reminds me I should replace that gasket on my boat also.
     


  16. Crazy Dave Condon

    Crazy Dave Condon

    Joined Jun 8, 2004
    5,648 posts, 317 likes
    -na -NA
    US Anywhere USA
    Walt, never apologize for contributing to this forum because believe it or not, I respect you for helping others like I do. Advice sometimes may not be thourough and sometimes I too learn from others. the fact the drain bail plug and gasket under the wing nut if not tightened down or gasket worn out with addl. weight on board is or has been an issue in the past but with the amount of water coming in and some things said makes me think the obvious to look for which is the transom. Yes you are correct that I not only as a dealer but one who was involved in the Hunter water ballast as I gave the plans to Hunter to what became the 23.5, I know the boats. Sometimes I disagree but we can always agree to disagree. If I feel that comments are not appropriate, I address them privately as all of us are trying to help others which is the main key. I ask for nothing in return other than to help. Gotta run to a lawn party this morning at church to weed whack the embankment. Oh what fun.
     


  17. Crazy Dave Condon

    Crazy Dave Condon

    Joined Jun 8, 2004
    5,648 posts, 317 likes
    -na -NA
    US Anywhere USA
    @Tyler Rippel
    Had phone with me yesterday but did not hear back from you on Saturday. It would be helpful if you could call me with the results on Sunday afternoon. Thanks
    Dave
     


  18. Crazy Dave Condon

    Crazy Dave Condon

    Joined Jun 8, 2004
    5,648 posts, 317 likes
    -na -NA
    US Anywhere USA
    Tyler Ripple reported back to me that he did not see any water coming from the transom area and the gasket on the flange has been replaced. It sounds like he did not tighten or could have been a bad seal of the wing nut and/or the bail plug which has been replaced. With two people on board, not an issue as the water level is not at the top of the wing nut or air vent opening but with four depending on weight can be with water flowing over and out if not tightened. He still has yet to look at the compression post but have suggested though to keep a lookout for the transom as you cannot see sometimes the water flow from the back unless water realling seeping into the bilge area without a good flashlight and in some cases of old farts like me with bad eyeball vision. Retirement caught up with me ugh.
     


  19. Doug J

    Doug J

    Joined May 2, 2005
    1,023 posts, 32 likes
    Hunter 26
    US San Diego, CA
  20. JimInPB

    JimInPB

    Joined Aug 22, 2017
    91 posts, 12 likes
    Hunter 212 & 170
    us Florida West Palm Beach
    Walt, than you for posting the diagrams of how the water ballast works. I was previously unfamiliar with the system.

    I think that if I owned a boat with that system, the vent would go through a piece of "soda hose" to a bulkhead fitting above the water line. Is there any reason not to do it that way?
     



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