Hunter 23 Cockpit Supports

[JaxSail]

I just bought a 1985 Hunter 23 in Florida. I recently graduated from school so cash is a little tight and I found what I thought was a real gem for $1,800. The deck has no perceptible flex, bilge was dry, standing rigging looked decent, etc. I've sailed the boat hard 3 weekends in a row and had a blast. I thought most of the work would be cosmetic and I was really looking forward to taking on the project. Of course that isn't the case. I recently uncovered some areas that are causing me serious concern. The cockpit support that runs lengthwise in the boat is rotting near the bottom and the stern-most bulkhead that it butts up against is also rotting. These rot areas had been obscured when I first examined the boat. I don't have a ton of cash to put into a fix but if this is something that can be fixed then I'm not afraid of a project. I'm attaching pictures of the rotting areas. I would really appreciate any help/advice that anyone can give. Like I said, this is my first ever boat and I'm not afraid of a project, but if it would make more sense to just try to sell this boat and be more thorough before I buy the next one I would appreciate that advice too. (Below pictures L to R: bulkhead rot from cabin side, bulkhead rot from lazarette, cockpit support rot from starboard side, cockpit support rot from port side)

 

[Johnb]

If you feel confident, and the total cost of the materials you would need (quart of epoxy, glass cloth, plywood etc) is not that much ($200?) I would just have at it. Glass fiber is amazingly repairable and once you get into it easy and forgiving to work with. It all depends on whether you have the inclination, tools and place to work.

 

[JaxSail]

Thanks for the reply John. I definitely have the inclination, it's more a matter of tools and a place to work. Is it possible to execute this repair on the water? I don't have a convenient way to pull the boat out. Is it just a matter of cutting the existing wood out, making pieces of the same dimensions, and then fiberglass tabbing that in? Or will I need to remove the cockpit floor? I'm not sure what the temporary structural ramifications are of removing a cockpit support and bulkhead.

 

[isaksp00]

I have a 23, and also have some delamination in those bulkheads, though not as bad as what yours might be (hard to really tell from the pics). I have done some glass repairs, and it is not that hard. If it were me, I'd get some marine plywood (if you can find it) or as good quality exterior grade ply, probably 1/4 inch thick, as you can find, and a West System epoxy kit. That has the resin, hardener, and I'd also buy the metered pumps for it (not cheap, but makes mixing a lot easier and more accurate). Some glass cloth, and maybe a roller, etc. Cut some pieces to cover the rotted areas or holes (whatever they are), removing any really rotted (soft) wood. Glass them to the existing bulkheads and tab in the edges with a layer of cloth, epoxied on. While those bulkheads certainly provide some rigidity to the hull, I think a few "sistered" in pieces, contoured to the hull and/or deck molds as per the original wood, should be fine. It isn't like those support the chainplates for the shrouds.
While on that subject, check the "wood shelf bracket" like bulkheads that support the chain plates. Because the prev owner had not sealed the chain plate covers well, there was leakage that soaked into the end grain of that plywood, rotting it. One cracked while sailing. I replaced the bulkhead, which is also doable, but messier than what you have, as you have to grind out the old bulkhead and tabbing. And reseal the chain plate covers if needed; I used the butyl rubber you can buy from Maine Sail (he posts a lot on this site).
Assuming you don't need (or can get) power where your boat is, no reason you can't do this on the water. I redid my chain plate bulkhead on the water - a bit dicey as you have to jury rig a side stay when you remove the shroud.
You can PM me or call if you want. Peter

 

[rgranger]

Thanks for the reply John. I definitely have the inclination, it's more a matter of tools and a place to work. Is it possible to execute this repair on the water? I don't have a convenient way to pull the boat out. Is it just a matter of cutting the existing wood out, making pieces of the same dimensions, and then fiberglass tabbing that in? Or will I need to remove the cockpit floor? I'm not sure what the temporary structural ramifications are of removing a cockpit support and bulkhead.

Hi JaxSail and congrats on your new boat.

If you have a jig saw and a way to bevel the cuts, this is not a hard fix and you can do it all with fiberglass. Cut out the rotten wood and then bevel the edges of the hole you cut so that you get a lot of surface area to mount to. If you have access to the back of the hole you can tape a piece of velum (velum is that plastic stuff teachers used to use to make over head projections with) Do a search for overhead projector sheets or ask someone in education to nab you a few sheets.

Then take some transparent plastic (a walmart bag will work) and lay it over the hole you cut and trace the edges with a sharpie. This is your template for cutting your fiberglass cloth. Then use the trace to cut "disks" of fiberglass cloth that perfectly matches your hole. Then start cutting a bunch more disks making each one a little smaller than the previous but with the same shape (shape of the hole). Once you have a bout 6 or 8 disks cut, wet each one separately with resin (I recommend epoxy) and lay them all out on another piece of velum, largest first and then stack up. Lay the piece of velum with your stack of cloth over the hole (the back of the hole is blocked with a piece of velum as well) and then tape your velum and disks in place and walk away. In about 6 hours you can remove the velum and you have a very strong fiberglass patch. Because you sandwiched them between two sheets of velum, they are mostly smooth and fair. Add a little filler and sand if needed and paint.

DONE!

 

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[JaxSail]

Peter and Rgranger, thanks for the detailed responses. This is really helpful and it's heartening to hear that this is is not a death sentence for the boat.

I am a little bit apprehensive about the vellum and fiberglass approach just because of the scope of the rot/moisture damage. I might end up removing a significant amount of wood to cut out all of the rot and for this reason I am leaning more towards reinforcing my repair with plywood for rigidity. Peter I may PM you before I make any cuts, thanks for being so willing to help. I'm going to check the forward bulkheads where the chainplates attach next time I'm out there. I would also be interested just to hear tips you have in general for working an older H23.

 

[Crazy Dave Condon]

I could not tell either if the 3/4 inch marine ply is fully rotten or not. I would use a screwdriver to tap and if needed to probe. First thing though you would have to find the leaks to stop that damage. The second thing when using tools to repair is to think what if I screw up and went thru the hull? Suggest that the boat be on the trailer. As for Peter, he knows the boat and is a good source of information. I will be glad to monitor but more information would be needed. Also any fiberglassing inside, get a good mask so not to breath the fumes and dust. I am experienced on that.

 

[JaxSail]

I could not tell either if the 3/4 inch marine ply is fully rotten or not. I would use a screwdriver to tap and if needed to probe. First thing though you would have to find the leaks to stop that damage. The second thing when using tools to repair is to think what if I screw up and went thru the hull? Suggest that the boat be on the trailer. As for Peter, he knows the boat and is a good source of information. I will be glad to monitor but more information would be needed. Also any fiberglassing inside, get a good mask so not to breath the fumes and dust. I am experienced on that.

Hi Crazy Dave, thanks for responding. I think it's safe to say that the bulkhead running abeam of the boat is rotted completely through in some places. I'm not certain about the 3/4 inch running lengthwise. Is it just a matter of percussion testing and listening for the tonal variation or should I poke in there with the working end and see how easy it is to push through?

From what I can tell the boat sat neglected for some time and I believe this is when the bulk of the damage occurred. It looks like it was allowed to fill up with rainwater and not drained for possibly a whole season. I thoroughly dried the bilge when I bought the boat a month ago and it has remained dry since even after numerous choppy sailing days (with the exception of maybe a 1/4" of water in the lowest part of the bilge after a very strong storm). I plan on re-bedding the windows and most of the deck hardware over the course of this season.

Unfortunately the boat did not come with a trailer and while I have been monitoring for one (anticipating some hull work), most of them seem to run at almost the same price I bought the boat for. If I buy a trailer for another $1200-1500 I'm going to have exhausted my boat budget for the next 2 seasons.

 

[Crazy Dave Condon]

Jaxsail;
Biggest culprits for leakes are shroud chain plate covers and anchor well to be sure. Windows are readily easily seen for leakes. Anchor well can be addressed by removing screws in the forward berth wall and then prying from the bottom outward as it will be tight fitting. If you still do have leaks, then close everything off, putting tape over the edges of the forward hatch and opening windows (no on duck tape) and then one large piece of plastic over the companionway taped down but with a small slit in it to insert a leaf blower to be taped to the plastic as well. With a bucket of real soapy water brushed on by a second person over ever fitting, rub rail and so on after you start the leaf blower, wherever you see air bubbling out, leaks. In essence you are pressurizing the cabin. An old trick of the trade.
You are correct using a screwdriver or pic to tap and push in to find rot afterwards. If you have to remove an entire panel with boat in the water since no trailer, suggest that you are careful with electric tools and you may want to use battery operated only in certain cases. Also leave everything open if God forbid a hole is put in the hull below the water line for escape. A friend of mine, Gus Grissom, lost his life in a fire on the pad and afterwards explosive bolts were used to get the astronauts out quickly in case of fire again on the Apollo Capsules. Just think out of the box for safety.
Lets say that you have to remove an entire panel, look at where it is attached to the hull and cut the rotten piece off leaving some as a base to attach too. Just a thought as that could be used for attaching another piece of ply to it bolted together and glued. Never use lumber but marine ply only.
I can remember over 50 years ago the first hole in a hull that I repaired. Boy what a mess and the fiberglass looked like a mountain when finished on the hull. An old experienced sailor came along and said you are doing ok but let me show you how to do this a little better. Never forgot that man who became a life long friend. I would say you are going to be willing and gutsy to get in there and do the job. First boat, learn a lot and then later as you get older and of course more financially affluent, then get the boat you want but let this be a learning tool on the 23 for you.
Rgranger has beautifully restored sailboats as well as Isaksp00 on his 23 whose work is excellent too as they are willing to advise as well. If you Have a cell phone with facetime, that could help a lot to see what is going on during that construction.
Now to get the trash out for pickup as I forgot to do so last week off our mountain. Suggest in the future that you address this boat in the small boat section for a larger audience

 

[JaxSail]

Jaxsail;
Biggest culprits for leakes are shroud chain plate covers and anchor well to be sure. Windows are readily easily seen for leakes. Anchor well can be addressed by removing screws in the forward berth wall and then prying from the bottom outward as it will be tight fitting. If you still do have leaks, then close everything off, putting tape over the edges of the forward hatch and opening windows (no on duck tape) and then one large piece of plastic over the companionway taped down but with a small slit in it to insert a leaf blower to be taped to the plastic as well. With a bucket of real soapy water brushed on by a second person over ever fitting, rub rail and so on after you start the leaf blower, wherever you see air bubbling out, leaks. In essence you are pressurizing the cabin. An old trick of the trade.
You are correct using a screwdriver or pic to tap and push in to find rot afterwards. If you have to remove an entire panel with boat in the water since no trailer, suggest that you are careful with electric tools and you may want to use battery operated only in certain cases. Also leave everything open if God forbid a hole is put in the hull below the water line for escape. A friend of mine, Gus Grissom, lost his life in a fire on the pad and afterwards explosive bolts were used to get the astronauts out quickly in case of fire again on the Apollo Capsules. Just think out of the box for safety.
Lets say that you have to remove an entire panel, look at where it is attached to the hull and cut the rotten piece off leaving some as a base to attach too. Just a thought as that could be used for attaching another piece of ply to it bolted together and glued. Never use lumber but marine ply only.
I can remember over 50 years ago the first hole in a hull that I repaired. Boy what a mess and the fiberglass looked like a mountain when finished on the hull. An old experienced sailor came along and said you are doing ok but let me show you how to do this a little better. Never forgot that man who became a life long friend. I would say you are going to be willing and gutsy to get in there and do the job. First boat, learn a lot and then later as you get older and of course more financially affluent, then get the boat you want but let this be a learning tool on the 23 for you.
Rgranger has beautifully restored sailboats as well as Isaksp00 on his 23 whose work is excellent too as they are willing to advise as well. If you Have a cell phone with facetime, that could help a lot to see what is going on during that construction.
Now to get the trash out for pickup as I forgot to do so last week off our mountain. Suggest in the future that you address this boat in the small boat section for a larger audience

Crazy Dave, Isaksp00 and Rgranger,

Thanks a lot for your willingness to help. I really appreciate your advice and time. I am on the hunt for some marine ply and I'll report back when I find it. I may be pm'ing one of you soon. I'm looking forward to learning as much as I can on this boat. Took her for a sunset sail last night and had a blast.

Sorry about your friend Gus, Dave. He was a real American hero.

 

[isaksp00]

Jax - when I bought mine I had the same issue, water under the cockpit in the lazarette area, and it was deep enough to have wet the bottoms of those bulkheads. It was on the trailer in the yard. Culprit was the access panel in cockpit - the round thing you can unscrew on the aft wall of the area where the gas tank goes, on the stbd side. The scupper/drain in the aft end of the cockpit floor had been covered with leaves, forming a very watertight cover over that drain, and as rain water filled the cockpit it got up to the level of the access panel and seeped through into the lazarette or bilge or whatever you want to call it. Due to the ground under the trailer, the boat was angled slightly down toward the rear and also slightly down on the stbd side, which tended to pool the water deeper along that access hatch. That is less likely to occur when you are on the water, but it may explain how yours become "flooded".
I also had some leaking around the chain plates, and the hose that drains the water from the anchor well up front had a small leak where the hose clamp connects it to the through-hull. Now, mine has no cover over the access from the v-berth to that area under the anchor locker - didn't even know the boat was supposed to have one.

 

[JaxSail]

Thanks for all of the responses to this thread. I wanted to give a quick update. My uncle came down a few weeks ago and helped me cut out the rotted areas and tab and epoxy in some new marine ply. The finished job looks great and has added peace of mind and a great deal of structural rigidity. I am steeling myself to do a little bit more boat yoga and paint the whole bilge, and after that I think the repair might just last another 30 years.

 

[Volkswatson]

Glad I found this thread. I just bought a H23 and have the exact same issue. It was neglected for a number of years. The whole under side on the cockpit is a mess...
I would like to remove that wall altogether, as it doesn’t seem to be adding much support ( it barely touches). Is this a bad idea? It would open up a lot of space underneath. I wouldn’t even mind building a skeleton frame if needed if I could add more space.
I also considered glassing in an enclosed closet for the port side lazarette....
Anyway, I’d love to hear your thoughts on whether removal or rebuilding a support frame is doable...

 

[Brian M H23]

I just came across this thread - Wish I had photos, but my 23 rotted away in this same exact spot. I cut the bulkhead straight across, cut a piece of 1/2" exterior ply to fill the gap, painted all sides with epoxy and "grouted" it in place with thick epoxy to both the hull and the remains of the original bulkhead, then screwed a sister piece over the entire joint.

Did two things noticeable :
1 - I stopped getting bilge water (leaky lazarette) sloshing into the cabin
2- The boat got a whole lot less "creaky" when sheeted in, hard on the wind. Remember, the mainsheet traveler is attached to the cockpit almost directly above this bulkhead!