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Hunter 22 (1984) Cockpit drain leak

Discussion in 'Smaller Boats' started by Maxx Mayhem, Dec 21, 2018. Add this thread to a FAQ

  1. Maxx Mayhem

    Maxx Mayhem

    Joined Nov 10, 2018
    11 posts, 1 likes
    Hunter 22
    Many Strings Attached US Baltimore
    Hello everybody, I recently got a free Hunter 22 and have it blocked up in my back yard for a total refit. The boat is really not in bad shape other than needing everything replaced, but most of the parts are there, she seems sound. That said, she had been sunk in shallow water while in the hands of the P.O., I have been removing an average 5 gallons of water per day's heavy rain. Looking at the cockpit drain hoses I could see a drip at one end of the hose at the "T" fitting. Also I noticed that the drain assembly is rather long and kind of makes a loop all the way down to the bilge before going up again to exit the bottom drain. This seems to me like bad plumbing - should not drains go in a downward direction??? So is there any reason I should not replace the "t" fitting with a Y fitting and make the drains shorter and more direct? Also, can anybody tell me the size hose used. I believe it is the heavy duty sanitary hose, which I would like to replace with the same thing. Thanks.
     


  2. Crazy Dave Condon

    Crazy Dave Condon

    Joined Jun 8, 2004
    7,008 posts, 704 likes
    -na -NA
    US Anywhere USA
    Can you post some photos
     


  3. Maxx Mayhem

    Maxx Mayhem

    Joined Nov 10, 2018
    11 posts, 1 likes
    Hunter 22
    Many Strings Attached US Baltimore
    drain.jpg
    So here is the drain the way it is currently...I noticed water dripping out of the left upper hose, just before the T connector, yesterday after it had stopped raining. Can't be entirely sure if it was coming from there or dripping down, but I did remove quite a good bit of water from that area. (a good few gallons) I'd like to use shorter hoses and (hopefully) a Y fitting to promote faster draining, and as these lines seem rather stiff, I'm guessing that they are due for replacement.
     


  4. isaksp00

    isaksp00

    Joined Apr 27, 2010
    1,012 posts, 80 likes
    Hunter 23
    US Lake Wallenpaupack
    Dave is the expert. If it were mine, I'd get that split (whether T or Y) higher so the flow is always downhill to drain. Can't advise on hose type, but I'd try to use doubled hose clamps at each junction. For sure where it goes into through hull as if that leaks or parts, there goes your boat.
     


  5. Maxx Mayhem

    Maxx Mayhem

    Joined Nov 10, 2018
    11 posts, 1 likes
    Hunter 22
    Many Strings Attached US Baltimore
    True is that... I'm pretty sure that what ever is going on here plus maybe leaky keel bolts is what put this boat on the bottom in the first place. When I was a kid, I worked at a Hunter dealer. I recall that I elected to end my tenure there after spending half the day struggling with a head hose. And I was skinnier then. But I am resolved to improve on this drain issue. After digging a bit further, I'm thinking that this is the standard white sanitary hose, will verify dimension and try to get to the boat store tomorrow. Definitely planning to double up on the hose clamps. Will post when I get this done. BTW, am planning to start a build thread covering this project.
     


  6. Hunter216

    Hunter216

    Joined Sep 22, 2018
    109 posts, 26 likes
    Hunter 216
    CA Kingston
  7. Maxx Mayhem

    Maxx Mayhem

    Joined Nov 10, 2018
    11 posts, 1 likes
    Hunter 22
    Many Strings Attached US Baltimore
    Ok, so looking through the previous thread, it seems that perhaps it was done to try to avoid water washing up into the boat...It would seem that this would be a minimal problem being that the cockpit is higher than the waterline and so I am leaning towards making the hoses as short as possible, traveling downward. The hose freezing sounds like a good possibility, as the PO states that when he returned from Florida in the spring, the boat was in submarine mode. This boat is 36 years old, hoses lose their flexibility in much less time than that. These hoses have (currently) a 5 year warranty, so the story is coming together. I also like the idea of removing the lazarette bulkhead to do the job. It is rotted anyway and must be replaced.
     


  8. Crazy Dave Condon

    Crazy Dave Condon

    Joined Jun 8, 2004
    7,008 posts, 704 likes
    -na -NA
    US Anywhere USA
    Take a photo of the cockpit drains assuming two in the cockpit ? Please include transom in the photo
     


  9. Maxx Mayhem

    Maxx Mayhem

    Joined Nov 10, 2018
    11 posts, 1 likes
    Hunter 22
    Many Strings Attached US Baltimore
    Just getting back from family stuff, here it is... drain1.jpg
     


  10. Crazy Dave Condon

    Crazy Dave Condon

    Joined Jun 8, 2004
    7,008 posts, 704 likes
    -na -NA
    US Anywhere USA
    One more photo please looking at the back side of the transom. I am nearing a suggestion but would like to get my ducks in a row first.
    Also research the Catalina 22 cockpit drains which go out and the drain hoses that criss cross in the Victoria 18. I will then make some suggestions.
     


  11. Maxx Mayhem

    Maxx Mayhem

    Joined Nov 10, 2018
    11 posts, 1 likes
    Hunter 22
    Many Strings Attached US Baltimore
    Dave, I can shoot you a photo tomorrow, but the drain does not exit through the transom, it exits through a molded in thru hull in the bottom, just forward of the transom. The original picture is oriented just as in the boat. The drain in the bottom is hard to photograph, because the blocking is in the way, though not blocking the drain.
     


  12. jbreland

    jbreland

    Joined Aug 5, 2005
    98 posts, 5 likes
    - -
    US Laurel, Ms
    I never understood why hunter did this as it was always a problem. On a 25.5 I had they just let the cockpit drain through two holes straight out the transom. I was looking for a hunter 22 for some time and never found one but I had always planned to try and modify the drains (plug the existing holes and thru hull and the cut new drain holes straight out the back of the transom. Of course you would have to glass them in properly so they didn't leak inside the transom layers...
    just a thought so please don't go on my advise, just something to think about....
     


  13. Maxx Mayhem

    Maxx Mayhem

    Joined Nov 10, 2018
    11 posts, 1 likes
    Hunter 22
    Many Strings Attached US Baltimore
    As somebody who makes things for a living, I can only surmise that the way it is in there allowed the factory to assemble the hoses/ T etc, and then install the assembly into the boat in way less time than it would take to properly fit / install each individual hose, etc. The other possibility, is that this was an owner repair, as the hoses do have a limited life, and was their best effort. I'm hoping to fix this sometime over the next week or so before it gets too cold to work on it. Have some Starboard coming to replace the rotten lazarette bulkhead, which I will remove to make the repair, because at my age, I'm about as flexible as one of those hoses...
     


  14. isaksp00

    isaksp00

    Joined Apr 27, 2010
    1,012 posts, 80 likes
    Hunter 23
    US Lake Wallenpaupack
    The 23 is different. It has a recessed well about 2 inches deep at the aft end of the cockpit floor that has a single drain in the center. That has one hose that exits at a through hull on the transom about at the waterline. On mine, which I know was repaired after it was new, there's a heavy hose that bends in an arc to the through hull fitting. That hose has no low points. I do get some water up the hose when there is a wave from the stern, but never much more than fills the well briefly.
    The 23 transom is not cored. It's a single layer of glass roughly 1/2 in thick.
     


    Crazy Dave Condon likes this.
  15. Crazy Dave Condon

    Crazy Dave Condon

    Joined Jun 8, 2004
    7,008 posts, 704 likes
    -na -NA
    US Anywhere USA
    First, I came on board as a dealer just right after the discontinuance of the Hunter 22; therefore, I am not sure if the single or dual drain which came first. Further, the other thread mentioned has a response from Jcherubini whose father was the designer of Hunter sailboats long time back and his knowledge is valuable. Also credit is due to @Hunter216 for the referral of an earlier post in the archives and @isaksp00 for his information. Most particular gratification for @Maxx Mayhem responding to my request for information.

    This will be lengthy but should be informative. Earlier I referenced the Catalina 22 and Victoria 18 cockpit drains.
    I am not sure if the single or dual drain system was first used on this Hunter 22. The single had a thru transom drain at the bottom of the transom wall just below the rudder fitting using a smaller opening. The dual had a single thru hull close up to the transom wall but in the hull itself. We are dealing with the two cockpit drain.

    The early Catalina 22 cockpit drains were forward if memory serves me correctly with hoses either going to the hull or the back end of the transom wall. One problem if gone from the boat too long paticuraly during the fall when leaves are falling, those darn drains would become clogged and water would fill up to the point overflowing into the cabin. Later, Catalina went to the two drains thru the transom from the cockpit spilling out directly into the water with no screens to avoid earlier issues of the screens being clogged by leaves and in one case I knew of duck nesting over the drains laying eggs and water spilled into the cabin (That really stunk but did emergency repairs at no charge to the owner without permission to keep boat from sinking). Due to in a sense the cockpit floor was higher from the water, the transom drains worked fine on the newer style Catalina 22 regardless of heavy seas or extra weight in the cockpit.

    The Victoria 18 is a smaller boat with two drains with screens in the forward cockpit floor with the cockpit floor being lower to the water line. Therefore, transom drains would not work as heavy seas and a lot of weight in the cockpit, water would flow into the cockpit from transom straight thru drains. Therefore, the drain hoses criss crossed each other thru seacock style thru hulls. The reason why this was done that way was to mitigate the amount of water back flowing into the cockpit. For example the starboard cockpit drain is raised up draining thru the port side where it drains out which is on the lower side in the wate; thus, the back wash is pretty much nill. However, if gone too long again during the fall season with leaves falling, drains could become clogged up by leaves and thus the possiblilty of water flowing into the cabin once the cockpit is full of water.

    In this case, we are dealing with a dual drain in the cockpit floor with those darn screens again that connects to a T fitting leading to a thru hull fitting forward of the transom wall. The T is lower than the thru hull drain and as pointed out difficult to get to unless you are a munchkin or water left standing that could freeze up during winter depending where you are at, thus the cockpit floor drains would be rendered useless in the event of inclement weather unless the boat is stored inside or covered up to the point no rain, snow and so on can get to the cockpit floor.

    First I would install an opening port or deck plate as shown in the referenced thread on the inside of the cockpit transom wall to allow easier access to the rudder fittings and the attachment of the hoses. I would go with a 5 or most preferably a 6 inch plate. That was a good suggestion.

    The single cockpit floor drain is centered with a new hose to a T fitting that is higher than the transom wall drain. I would have done that differently eliminating the T fitting. First I would have removed that thru cockpit floor fitting as the threaded portion of that fitting underneath the cockpit floor extended too far down. There are others with shorter threads that I would use. Therefore, the possibility of the T could be eliminated with a single hose in a moderate bend without collapsing the wall of the hose could go direct to the thru transom drain to avoid any constriction. The use of double clamping in opposite directions beside each other is industry standard as if one came loose, the other would be holding.

    Back to the dual thru cockpit drain connected by hoses leading to a T which is below the thru hull drain. I bet that was done to help prevent backwash from following heavy seas and any added weight in access of what is normal for that size cockpit as the T was much lower. However the issue of freezing is a major concern to me. In addition, I am not sure if thru transom drains for example like the Catalina 22 mentioned earlier (newer style) would be appropriate. Why? It appears from the picture Maxx Mayhem supplied of the transom wall, the cockpit drains are lower to the waterline; thus the issues of water coming in from heavy following seas and any added weight. I reflect back on the daysailors with cockpit thru transom drains being so close to the water line filling up the cockpit with weight in the back. I suggested open transoms but with the cockpit floor higher in the daysailors that Hunter built to help avoid that. In addition, a larger thru hull in the center of the transom below the rudder fitting might weaken that portion of the transom wall. One thing to note though, the hull when laid, I recall if correct the transom was all part of the hull when it was glassed or in other words, mfg. as one section.

    The easiest way to repair is what the previous owner did replacing the lines, T and adding two clamps as noted earlier in this post in opposite directions side by side of course. I would add the inspection port. That is one way but the boat should be removed in winter if freezing could occur to the point that the T would not freeze up. In moderate weather where it does get cold but little freezing, generally the water temperaturer is warmer than the outside temperature; thus the worry of the T freezing may never happen as the discharge is thru hull under the water line.

    There is another way reflecting back on what was said by others and what I remember of the Victoria 18 hosing crisscrossing each other to the opposite sides of the hulls. First, Attwood, Forespar, T-H Marine, Seafit, Marine East and others offer a 90 degree barb mushroom head thru hull fittings with barbs. Secondly, I would add the transom opening port deck plate as previously mentioned. Personally if keeping the boat, I would look for easy access to the hull forward of the transom but much further forward of the current thru hull drain with easy access from within the cabin. I would then install the appropriate size thru hull 90 degree mushroom head with barb fittings with each one pointing to the opposite side drain. For example the thru hull new drain on the port side would be pointed to the starboard drain. I would then add the appropriate size hose being a single run from the starboard cockpit drain to the thru hull fitting on the port side and of course double clamped. You will have to secure the hoses. Also, I would glass in the old hull drain, apply barrier coats and of course anti fouling.

    I will encourage Maxx Mayhem to send me a private message with phone number if he has any further questions.

    Dave
     


    Last edited: Dec 27, 2018
  16. Maxx Mayhem

    Maxx Mayhem

    Joined Nov 10, 2018
    11 posts, 1 likes
    Hunter 22
    Many Strings Attached US Baltimore
    20190109_105452.jpg 20190109_105614.jpg Ok so I looked carefully at the advice given here as well as on the previous thread mentioned. Particularly helpful was the opportunity presented by Dave to understand haw the various manufacturers had approached this issue. Ultimately, I decided the following... Water can splash up in heavy following seas, I'd not be averse to adding a scupper at the output. Water will run downhill faster than up, I'd really like a drain that will empty the cockpit fast when I take water over the side. I want to minimize the space the drain takes up because other systems will ultimately be installed in this area. I did like the concept of crossing 2 drains out 2 separate outputs, but honestly was most concerned about how physically difficult this would be to do. Examining the existing system, which consists of fiberglass tubes heavily glassed in place, though the angles could have been a bit more user friendly, the repair was not so bad.

    So here's what I did... I started by removing the bulkhead which was rotted and delaminated, and found that, despite my girth could fit easily into the lazarette and do the work. I loosened all of the hose clamps, and using a heat gun worked the old assembly off in just a few minutes...I measured the starboard and exit hoses and began loosely installing hose clamps. Finally cut the port hose, tightened everything up good and tight, Guessing it took less than an hour and a half. I did use heat getting the last hose on. I got the clamps with the smooth wall on the inside. It has yet to rain in the couple of days since this repair was done, but I located at least 2 holes in the old assembly, and everything seems nice and solid here. I'll keep you posted...Thanks again to all who offered their assistance.
     


    Last edited: Jan 12, 2019
    Hunter216 likes this.
  17. Hunter216

    Hunter216

    Joined Sep 22, 2018
    109 posts, 26 likes
    Hunter 216
    CA Kingston
    Maxx
    Congrats on the fix.... looks a lot better than what you started with. Just a thought but did you consider a check valve as a way to prevent following wave from entering?
     


  18. Maxx Mayhem

    Maxx Mayhem

    Joined Nov 10, 2018
    11 posts, 1 likes
    Hunter 22
    Many Strings Attached US Baltimore
    I’ll probably install a scupper under the output once I do the copper coat. I’ll attach it with 5200 to avoid drilling. Thinking of just attaching a piece of EPDM as a flap to allow easy exit of water, discourage ingress, and minimize weight / drag. No disadvantage it won't cost me anything...
     


    Last edited: Jan 12, 2019
  19. Maxx Mayhem

    Maxx Mayhem

    Joined Nov 10, 2018
    11 posts, 1 likes
    Hunter 22
    Many Strings Attached US Baltimore
    Ok, so after a snow / thaw, I have a few ounces of water in the rear bilge vs. 5 - 6 gallons. And that is likely from the toerail, which I know is not sealed at any point on the boat...So I'm happy with this repair. On to the next item...