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Hunter 170...Anything to beware of?

Discussion in 'Day Sailers' started by JimInPB, Sep 27, 2017. Add this thread to a FAQ

  1. BobbyFunn

    BobbyFunn

    Joined Apr 16, 2017
    36 posts, 3 likes
    Hunter 170
    US FL Tampa
    LOL. Where did you get this picture from? The starboard stays look like there is no tension at all and the vang is a cantenary with no tension, even though the mainsail is pulled almost all the way out. Who's watching the the mainsheet, causr the skippers not.

    Theres 4 people on the port and its still heeled. The wife is holding on to the youngest child like a human shield.

    The water looks calm though for heel. Are they starting a tack to port?
     


  2. Jackdaw

    Jackdaw

    Joined Nov 8, 2010
    7,111 posts, 1,105 likes
    Beneteau First 36.7 & 260
    US Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
    I don’t understand anything about what your question is. What point are you trying to make ?

    The starboard stay is going to slack when on port tack is typical. So is the Vang being loose when the Mainsail is under mainsheet tension going up wind. As for the crew position and the lack of wind on the water, who knows. I think it’s a hunter promotional shot
     


  3. Crazy Dave Condon

    Crazy Dave Condon

    Joined Jun 8, 2004
    5,648 posts, 317 likes
    -na -NA
    US Anywhere USA
    Everyone;
    the only thing I can say when I talk is to speak from experience with a specific boat. One photo of a hull diagram is that of a hard chime which is not on the 170 but many other factors play here. Without further discussion, this boat was designed as a family daysailor and what I learned from my experience sailing the boat or 170, never to heel over 12-14 degrees with use of sail control and less sail with higher winds. The boat was standard with roller furling, topping lift and I believe one reef in the main. In fact I use to supply the Hobbie mast floats as standard along with other items not offered by other dealers. As for the production, I had suggested being built in fiberglass but was over ruled on that one.
    Everyone has there opinions but I think enough has been said about the pros and cons, so let the original poster make his choice. I thank you for all the comments but I want many to know that even though sometimes I disagree with Jackdaw, this gentleman has and will always provide good support and suggestions and always look forward to his comment. He has been a valuable contributer to which many appreciate his wealth of knowledge. Nothing more to say except to the OP, let us know what you saw and whether or not you purchased the boat.
     


  4. JimInPB

    JimInPB

    Joined Aug 22, 2017
    91 posts, 12 likes
    Hunter 212 & 170
    us Florida West Palm Beach
    I took the boat out for it's first sail today.
    I left the motor at home.

    The only difficulty I had with the standing rigging was pulling the mast forward hard enough to let me get the pin in the bottom of the jib. Other than that, everything worked out well. The slight bow in the mast pulled back straight once the shrouds got some tension on them. I may add an extra shackle to the bottom of the jib to buy me an extra 3/4" & make the pin insertion easier. ...unless someone knows of a reason why I should not do that.

    I dropped the boat in a stub canal that is just a few hundred yards from an airport & directly under the flight path. The gusty conditions that get stirred up by the wide body jets, gave the little boat's tenderness a good test. This was compounded by the fact that I had to go with only half a center board in some places due to limited water depth. I had a few semi-violent heals, but nothing scary. She handled it all pretty well. The breeze that I saw today probably ranged from 3-15 knots & was GUSTY. 3 knots was enough to keep her moving & maneuvering with no counter current.

    I think that I now understand why Dave was recommending not to heal over too far in that boat. By the time she got to about 30⁰, she lost a lot of speed. Despite that issue, the boat was easily recoverable from 45⁰. I didn't push it much further than that. Much past about 20⁰, the bow seemed to get pushed down into the water & the stern came up a little. That seemed a little weird to me.

    Overall, I was happy with how she performed. The mast in this boat is MUCH easier to step solo, compared to the stick that is on top of my 21. I think that I'm going to like this little boat. It seems to be doing what I wanted it to do. As a bonus, I think that I can probably pull it around with something as small as a Jetta if I want to. It's a real feather of a little boat. It's a great little toy.
     


    Last edited: Sep 30, 2017
  5. JimInPB

    JimInPB

    Joined Aug 22, 2017
    91 posts, 12 likes
    Hunter 212 & 170
    us Florida West Palm Beach
    The roller furling worked well. I'm pretty find of that feature. I saw blocks & fittings on the mast that made me suspect that she had been rigged for a chute halyard & a topping lift. I did not get a chute nor a pole with the boat. I just got a main & jib. The main does have one line of kringles. It was made by North Sails. It seems to be a nice piece of cloth. I ran full canvas today. I did not reef.

    Glass construction would make my intended repairs easier. I like the plastic as a high performance material, but I really like the fact that no matter how badly someone bashes up a piece of fiberglass, I can usually find a way to fix it.
     


  6. JimInPB

    JimInPB

    Joined Aug 22, 2017
    91 posts, 12 likes
    Hunter 212 & 170
    us Florida West Palm Beach
    I think that the tires & axle are probably less than a year old. I don't think that either has seen salt water. I installed bearing buddies before I dunked it today.

    The lights were very much another story. They were far from new. I took them off with a chisel. Fortunately, I had the necessary spare parts hanging on the wall in my shop, along with the bearing buddies.
     


    Last edited: Sep 30, 2017
  7. JimInPB

    JimInPB

    Joined Aug 22, 2017
    91 posts, 12 likes
    Hunter 212 & 170
    us Florida West Palm Beach
    OK, now I'm going to sound like the Luddite that I am. I don't own a Go Pro.
     


  8. JimInPB

    JimInPB

    Joined Aug 22, 2017
    91 posts, 12 likes
    Hunter 212 & 170
    us Florida West Palm Beach
    Ya know...
    My leward stays did slack a little when I healed up, but they did not slack as much as is shown in the picture that you posted. Perhaps my stays are too tight? Perhaps that is why I have such a hard time getting the pin into the bottom of my jib when I'm putting the rig up????

    Does anyone know how tight those things are supposed to be?
     


  9. BobbyFunn

    BobbyFunn

    Joined Apr 16, 2017
    36 posts, 3 likes
    Hunter 170
    US FL Tampa
    If you have the stays adjusted like that picture you should have no problem pinning the jib. You'll have fun trying different things out.

    I think youl find it unnerving with the mast wobbling with loose stays. It may become difficult to use the jib furler, and pointing upwind might not be that great.

    Google johnson marine dingy stay adjusters. Ronstan makes less expensive ones, i have 4 adjusters. Even with three people it was a pain to have one person push the mast, one person to put the pin in and another to pull the jib to the drum and line up the hole. Looked unprofessional at the boat ramp and in front of my children.

    With the adjusters wide open youll have about 4 inches of jib slack. Onnce pinned the mast wobbles several degrees but is controlled . Once tighened there is no slack anywhere. I took out the boat two weeks ago with the cool north Irma winds. We had a good heel going upwind and askef my son to grab the lee stays. Loose, but not slacked.

    The manual doesnt have any guidance. I read the 216 manual instead. For the 216 tighten the top stays till the mast is swept back a couple inches. Tighten the mid stays just tight enough to prevent movement. I tried that in the 170 while culdesac sailing. The stay adjuster started to buckle at the chainplate and the adjuster lever was like a loaded weapon. They bite if you dont release under full control. If you get the adjysters i suggest a setting so that its a pleasure to use. A child should feel safe helping you. You're just trying to keep the jib stay tight and the rig centered. I dont think we need to be mucking around with mast rake.

    That picture showed a fools rig. That kind of slop in the stays is asking for trouble as rig momentum yanks the pins and rivets.
     


    JimInPB likes this.
  10. BobbyFunn

    BobbyFunn

    Joined Apr 16, 2017
    36 posts, 3 likes
    Hunter 170
    US FL Tampa
    If you go to the 170 section of this site there is a link to a pdf that shows a massive bow injury repair for lexan. Dave might have even had a hand in that not sure. If you can handle epoxy then this is just another but apparently more dangerous chemical. What sucks is youll need to be an expert before you hand off repairs to others. Dave has indicated that mixing resin and lexan is no bueno and this lexan is not common in the marine industry. Its very popular in automotive such as bumpers and side mirrors, engine covers on snowmobiles, etc. I can see why it was tried. It can even be made clear. How cool would that have been.

    The rudder and centerboard is plain vanilla resin and glass.
     


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  11. JimInPB

    JimInPB

    Joined Aug 22, 2017
    91 posts, 12 likes
    Hunter 212 & 170
    us Florida West Palm Beach
    My 170 currently has 4 adjusters that are similar to this - http://www.apsltd.com/johnson-shrou...MInuSelsPO1gIVBEGGCh1ewAKOEAQYASABEgLlV_D_BwE

    I tried loosening them to attach the head sail. It worked, but then I could not get the side stays back in the same holes.

    I assume that the adjusters you are recommending are similar to this - http://www.apsltd.com/johnson-calib...MInuSelsPO1gIVBEGGCh1ewAKOEAQYAiABEgIhsPD_BwE

    I have one of those on the head stay of my 21. It's a necessity there.

    It appears to me that a single quick release adjuster on the head stay would be the fast & easy way to handle this issue. Is there a reason why you chose to go with 4 adjusters on the sides, rather than just one on the head stay? Are you concerned that the roller furler might twist the quick release gizmo?
     


  12. BobbyFunn

    BobbyFunn

    Joined Apr 16, 2017
    36 posts, 3 likes
    Hunter 170
    US FL Tampa
    Thats it. Sorry the lever part wasnt obvious. The specs look correct as well on that link. You need to verify the pin sizes and cable thickness.

    Placing a single lever adjuster on the foerstay sounds like that would have been the correct initial design. Aftermarket might not work but it would be cool to hear if others have tried it.

    If attempted the consequences might include
    1. Mast will have more rake, but no bend.
    A. Increased weather helm?
    2. Remaining stays migjt be too long to adjust.
    A. Shorter stays mean the mast will need to be lifted higher and more vertical in order to pin it. Stepping the mast will become riskier since you wont have a good rest point between start of stepping and tying off the mast to pinning it.

    3. The mast may not sit squarely in the tabernacle. This might increase pressure on the aluminum.

    4. The lever has pins that are sort of easy to pull out.
    A. Could be risky to get jib lines wrapped around those
    B. The furler is difficult to operate when winds are strong. Its sketchy to add points of failure there.
    C. Forestay failure means the rig will fall backward towards cockpit or over the side turtling boat.

    With levers the mast can be pinned while it is resting horizontal on the stern mast holder.

    Try it out in the driveway!
     


    JimInPB likes this.
  13. BobbyFunn

    BobbyFunn

    Joined Apr 16, 2017
    36 posts, 3 likes
    Hunter 170
    US FL Tampa
    My point: The setup and sailing techniques are unrefined. People mock hunter boats, and if this is their marketing material, they deserve that kind of industry scorn.

    I disagree with your use of vang. The mainsheet has one job, control the boom from starboard to port and back. There is no traveler on a 170.

    When sailing upwind the boom is close to center, however, as you indicated, the mainsheet is pulling the boom to the floor more than the center. This is very tiring even with the rachet clicking. At this point you have no control of the sail shape as the leech is being adjusted with each mainsheet adjustment.

    The vang is fantastic. Get the boom close to where it should be for the point of sail, then, tighten the vang. Sail a little distance micomanaging the low telltale. Then, watch the top mainsail telltale (i have one just past the deepest draft where turbulace starts to set in). If thats flopping around then tighten vang some more. Even under heavy wind, in that scenerio the vang is absorbing the boom upward pull and the mainsheet is just holdong the boom at the correct angle to the wind. There is a point where a traveler here would be ideal, but the 170 close hauls nicly even though id like the boom closer to center.

    Before a major change in heading or wind source loosen the vang.
     


  14. Jackdaw

    Jackdaw

    Joined Nov 8, 2010
    7,111 posts, 1,105 likes
    Beneteau First 36.7 & 260
    US Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
    Good point... I forgot the 170has no traveler.
     


  15. Jackdaw

    Jackdaw

    Joined Nov 8, 2010
    7,111 posts, 1,105 likes
    Beneteau First 36.7 & 260
    US Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
    Dave, I never questioned your comment about best heal being 12-14 degrees. That I have no reason to doubt. I DID disagree with your comment that 'Thus if heeling too much you had more wetted surface in the water thus slowing down a boat'. As a generality that is simply untrue, and has no basis in fact in marine design. Personally, I think its important that people know what is an engineering truth, and is what is a wrong opinion.

    Speaking of engineering truth, I can tell you that from years as an executive in the Product Development business of engineered products (some in the marine space), that there IS engineering truth, and what we tell dealers. What we tell dealer is 'spin'; and is exactly what we want them to tell customers. I'm willing to venture that much of what you heard from Hunter was exactly that, the 'spin' that they wanted you to tell customers. The actual truth is often inconvenient, too confidential, or too nuanced or complex to relate to consumers. So you tell the dealers that you want your customers to hear. Thats just the way the builder/dealer world works.
     


  16. JimInPB

    JimInPB

    Joined Aug 22, 2017
    91 posts, 12 likes
    Hunter 212 & 170
    us Florida West Palm Beach
    When I first read that statement from Dave, I had the same knee jerk reaction that you did. Quite frankly, I assumed that it was a typo.

    Now that I have seen Dave stand behind the statement more than once, I have given the possibility further consideration. The way that boat is shaped, you have a fairly flat bottom, then an area that curves up, then a fairly flat side. I suppose, that as you begin to heal into the curved portion of the hull, your whetted surface probably decreases, as one would normally expect. Eventually, you would reach the center of the curve & past that point, you would get back into a flatter portion of the hull & perhaps begin to increase whetted surface compared to the minimum that was reached at the center of the curve. The whetted surface up on a drastic heal, may be more than the whetted surface at the preferred heal, but probably is still quite a bit less than the whetted surface of the boat when it runs flat.

    Perhaps you are both correct in what you are thinking & perhaps the parameters surrounding some statements were not sufficiently defined when the statements were made.

    That's my take on it anyway. Does that make sense to you guys?
     


  17. BobbyFunn

    BobbyFunn

    Joined Apr 16, 2017
    36 posts, 3 likes
    Hunter 170
    US FL Tampa
    I think someone is going to have to draw the 170 in google sketchup, heel the boat in 10 degree increment while marking the waterline.

    From the should be able th click immersed surfaces to sum the surface area.
     


  18. Crazy Dave Condon

    Crazy Dave Condon

    Joined Jun 8, 2004
    5,648 posts, 317 likes
    -na -NA
    US Anywhere USA
    Like I tell everyone, what was explained to me from the manufacturers was not a spin or anything made up. There are various ways to look at this but since I do not have any sailboats now at my disposal nor do I wish to further this argument, let that portion die. I have many other things to do other than to debate this. However, I will stand behind the fact I raced the 170 and found sailing flatter with sail control and or reduced sail, I generally went faster than most. However experience is also a factor regarding the sailor's knowledge and sailing.

    In fact, I have other responsibilities to church members to help the elderly and will probably be gone after today for a while.
     


    Solarfy likes this.
  19. BobbyFunn

    BobbyFunn

    Joined Apr 16, 2017
    36 posts, 3 likes
    Hunter 170
    US FL Tampa
    I think we've all been served kool-aid on wetted surface.

    I did an experiment. Took a scrap 9 inch 2x4 which is a good analgy for the 170, and measured it floating in sink.

    It essentally floated half way in the stable position, and half way when rotated 90 degrees (heeled). I did the math and the surface area is the same for all values of lwh. The makes sense in that there is no free lunch. As the model heels it will have the same surface area while centerboard and rudder performance is increasinly suboptimal. This only applies to displacement sailing. Surface area in front of 2x4 was equal as well.

    Planing introduces new math. If there is a choice between planing on the fat side (3 3/8) of the 2x4 or the skinny side (1 1/5), the skinny side will be obvious as for any length of 2x4 the skinny edge will present the least wetted area.

    There you go. Heel on purpose only if that is what it takes to get on plane, heel as much as possible once on plane until appendages slow ypu down or heeling reduces control.

    Anyone here get a 170 on plane? That is my new goal as the sailing season starts up.
     


  20. Jackdaw

    Jackdaw

    Joined Nov 8, 2010
    7,111 posts, 1,105 likes
    Beneteau First 36.7 & 260
    US Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
    Did you account for changes in buoyancy as the ‘hull’ heeled???
     



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