How Much Heel?

[Meriachee]

KZW, As with any setup, get out there and experiment. You might find that for your particular setup, wind and sea conditions, everything that was said here is crap. Maybe not. Maybe (probably) someplace in between.

I'd offer that the approach should be that you go out, sail the boat so that it's comfortable and reasonably fast, and note what you did. As Clay said, you can't gauge the heel as a governing factor - it's one of many inputs to the equation.

 

[KZW]

[QUOTE="I'd offer that the approach should be that you go out, sail the boat so that it's comfortable and reasonably fast, and note what you did. As Clay said, you can't gauge the heel as a governing factor - it's one of many inputs to the equation.[/QUOTE]

No worries. I've owned the boat for almost three years and experiment frequently, trying different combinations of things. I just wanted the benefit of the experience of others. The best thing I've done for speed to date is to replace the worn and blown out 12 yr old main sail with a new one. That helped out quite a bit! One of these days I'd like to replace the fixed three blade prop with a folding or feathering one

 

[Daveinet]

I would suggest faster depends on how much wind. Very simply, the farther over the boat is heeled, the greater the righting motion, and the greater force one can handle on the sails. So while the hull may move through the water easier when flat, the sails can handle more power when heeled. At some point the greater sail power exceeds the loss from not being flat. I figured this out one time with my own boat. Generally speaking, sailing flat, or up to about 10 degrees is faster, but if the wind starts pushing 18 to 20, keeping the sails under full power does cause the boat to pick up speed and eventually plane. You kind of have to wait for it and just hold the boat down, but eventually as the boat picks up speed, it will come back flatter again.

 

[Meriachee]

and eventually plane

Not the boats in our price range....

 

[JRT]

So we had some heel yesterday with guest onboard. I dumped the main and told my wife to adjust leeward heading to bring her back flat. We were close hauled most of the day and beam reaching when the angle was 10-15 degrees. I had almost everyone on windward side too. We have no furler and jiffy reefing on the main. I think we could hold the 10-15 deg heel and maintained heading and speed. Am I wrong or should we do something else? Oh head sail was 105 jib.

 

[Jackdaw]

I would suggest faster depends on how much wind. Very simply, the farther over the boat is heeled, the greater the righting motion, and the greater force one can handle on the sails. So while the hull may move through the water easier when flat, the sails can handle more power when heeled. At some point the greater sail power exceeds the loss from not being flat. I figured this out one time with my own boat. Generally speaking, sailing flat, or up to about 10 degrees is faster, but if the wind starts pushing 18 to 20, keeping the sails under full power does cause the boat to pick up speed and eventually plane. You kind of have to wait for it and just hold the boat down, but eventually as the boat picks up speed, it will come back flatter again.

Up to a point, call the Angle of Max Stabiliy (AMS), usually around 60 degrees. After that the RM starts to fall off.

But the foils (in particular the keel) lose efficiency when heeling, that's the primry reason to minimize it when going upwind.

 

[Joe]

So we had some heel yesterday with guest onboard. I dumped the main and told my wife to adjust leeward heading to bring her back flat. We were close hauled most of the day and beam reaching when the angle was 10-15 degrees. I had almost everyone on windward side too. We have no furler and jiffy reefing on the main. I think we could hold the 10-15 deg heel and maintained heading and speed. Am I wrong or should we do something else? Oh head sail was 105 jib.

Play the traveler to control heel.... if that becomes difficult, you're over powered... start flattening the sail and/or increase twist (less leech tension-i.e. mainsheet). Stop and think about what is causing the heeling.... apparent wind has moved aft as boat speed increases... so heading up or easing the traveler will change the angle of attack and bring the vessel back upright. In your case, where you're trying to maintain a particular heading or point of sail (the boat's course related to true wind direction), you'll want to play the traveler to accommodate slight variations in apparent wind angle rather than steering to control it as you would when beating.
Oh, and may I suggest rigging up a simple reefing option for your mainsail.

 

[Daveinet]

Not the boats in our price range....

An RL is in your price range and will plane up wind. Its an OZ thing. Ah, but it requires good sails, so maybe that puts it out of our price range.

 

[jon hansen]

WOW , was thinking no way, BUT, on the rl24 web site, on the stats page, a rl24 close hauled in a beat , PLANING. very cool. did not expect this. the crew is working hard and getting it done.

i also found your videos dave, very nice. i share many of the same hobbies.

..... and your a family man. well done sir. i salute you

 

[jon hansen]

57 years of riding on all kinds of vessels and still learning new stuff. this sport is great

 

[Jackdaw]

WOW , was thinking no way, BUT, on the rl24 web site, on the stats page, a rl24 close hauled in a beat , PLANING. very cool. did not expect this. the crew is working hard and getting it done.

i also found your videos dave, very nice. i share many of the same hobbies.

..... and your a family man. well done sir. i salute you

Ah.. no. While some keelboats will plane with the apparent wind in front of the beam, almost none will plane with the TRUE wind in front of it. And when they do, it's just in front. No keelboat planes on a beat.

 

[KZW]

[QUOTE="I'd offer that the approach should be that you go out, sail the boat so that it's comfortable and reasonably fast, and note what you did. As Clay said, you can't gauge the heel as a governing factor - it's one of many inputs to the equation.[/QUOTE]

No worries. I've owned the boat for almost three years and experiment frequently, trying different combinations of things. I just wanted the benefit of the experience of others. The best thing I've done for speed to date is to replace the worn and blown out 12 yr old main sail with a new one. That helped out quite a bit! One of these days I'd like to replace the fixed three blade prop with a folding or feathering one

 

[Justin_NSA]

We were blessed with newer sails and a folding prop already on Bella when we got her. I just have to sharpen my skills and take advantage of the improvements the PO's did, Learning all the time on here.
Just need to get my keel finished up and get her in the water!

 

[jon hansen]

interesting thought. So if the sails, of say a sloop rigged boat, are pulled in all the way, boom over the center line, and the apparent wind is say 27 degs. off the bow, and the sails are pulling properly, and you have a positive vmg to a mark upwind i call that a beat. terms and definitions have never been my strong point. it took me 45 years to learn what to call a bullard. hell, i called fenders bumpers till maybe just 5 years ago. i dont have a captains license, i have a masters licence, or what about those harbor pilots.

so when does a beat become a reach? is it degrees off the true wind? is it degrees off the apparent wind.
i have been on plane many times on my scow making good to weather. i called that beating. but im wrong alot. just ask wifey, she will confirm.

when does a reach become a beat? love some clarification.

 

[KZW]

From Wikipedia:
A "close reach" is a course closer to the wind than a beam reach but below close-hauled. i.e. any angle between a beam reach and close-hauled. The sails are trimmed in, but not as tight as for a close-hauled course. A "broad reach" is a course further away from the wind than a beam reach but above a run.

Close-hauled


Close-hauled
A boat is said to be sailing close-hauled (also called beating or working to windward) when its sails are trimmed in tightly and its course is as close to the wind as it can sail efficiently. This point of sail lets the boat travel diagonally to the wind direction, or 'upwind'.

Reaching


Reaching
When the wind is coming from the side of the boat, this is called reaching.

A "beam reach" is when the wind is at a right angle to the boat.

A "close reach" is a course closer to the wind than a beam reach but below close-hauled. i.e. any angle between a beam reach and close-hauled. The sails are trimmed in, but not as tight as for a close-hauled course.

A "broad reach" is a course further away from the wind than a beam reach but above a run. In a broad reach, the wind is coming from behind the boat at an angle. This represents a range of wind angles between beam reach and running downwind. The sails are eased out away from the boat, but not as much as on a run or dead run (downwind run).

 

[justsomeguy]

So if the sails, of say a sloop rigged boat, are pulled in all the way, boom over the center line, and the apparent wind is say 27 degs. off the bow, and the sails are pulling properly, and you have a positive vmg to a mark upwind i call that a beat.

I'd call that a miracle!

 

[jon hansen]

]I'd call that a miracle![/QUOTE]


the vessel planning while close hauled? or the vessel on plane making positive vmgs to a windward mark? or both?

 

[justsomeguy]

the vessel planning while close hauled? or the vessel on plane making positive vmgs to a windward mark? or both?

Planing with an apparent wind of 27 degrees off the bow, of course.

 

[jon hansen]

https://www.google.com/search?q=a+s...AUIBigB&biw=1280&bih=623#imgrc=_QQnzKOJi5rz2M:

scroll down a little to the beautiful lemonade colored boat. pretty huh?

 

[justsomeguy]

https://www.google.com/search?q=a+s...AUIBigB&biw=1280&bih=623#imgrc=_QQnzKOJi5rz2M:

scroll down a little to the beautiful lemonade colored boat. pretty huh?

Yeah, pretty okay. Does she go to weather well?