Heeling

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Jul 5, 2010
34
catalina 22 Texas
Let's not scare the newer skippers:naughty: - a Pitch Pole would be almost impossible on a lake - generally this takes large breaking waves on a ballasted boat. Unless sailing in a hurricane...



I would hope that the keel lock bolt would prevent this, or at least provide enough friction to slow it down and not to blow a hole in the hull.:confused: However, I am not volunteering to be the tester...

At about 75 degrees of heel on a J22 - the sails are so flat to the water that the boat won't go over any farther. I have tested this...:redface: twice :redface:. A local sailing instructor sank a J22 in 6 feet of water when two very heavy students refused to move in a tack.:eek: Also, a spinnaker could make things much more exciting.:eek:



Generally true - but none of the fast racers sail that way here. Yep - they don't. The local conditions are that when the wind gets up - it is very gusty with significant holes before each gust. The gust to base wind ratio is also significantly higher than most other areas. Because of this, racers sail for the average wind - unreefed. They heel over in the gusts because for a few seconds they are overpowered. Reefed they would lose too much in the average wind, so they give up some in the gusts.

Heeling over and sheeting out to control it are part of sailing here. Even the best racers with added rail meat can't react fast enough to prevent 30 degrees of heel. Most of the time the wind is light here - but when it gets up - it's wacky. The basic principles are the same, but local conditions can matter.

OTH: when uncomfortable - reef. Speed matters less than maintaining control.;)

JMHO, OC
OldCat - again great info. I've had several people tell me that locking the keel won't matter as much as keeping the cabin & compartments sealed.

I've noticed the J's look like they handle heeling better, i witnessed it several times in our lake in Austin. This pic doesn't show the scary heeling he was doing, a gust make picture taking hard that day...


I am way more interested in becoming a proficient sailor than racing around. Apprecite the great info again!! :)
 
Jul 5, 2010
34
catalina 22 Texas
Bilbo - again, excellent information. As I said, I have gained some useful skill dumping the sails by going into irons to decrease the heeling. I just worry that a single skill will be foolish. I've got to get this reefing thing figured out. I've posted the few pic's I have of my boom area, but the photos were taken the day after purchase for condition recording, so I didn't think to take the sail cover off and photograph.

I am a 'worst-case scenario' kind of girl. I'm willing to scare myself a little, if I understand what the worst thing that could happen will be. (and all of you keep in mind, I am afraid of boats. I owned a 36' fishing boat years ago and had tremendous fun, but was always afraid.) I'm a "feel the fear and do it safely anyway" type, too.

I will read, and reread, google all you great folks have posted and add it to my adventure this weekend!!

Thanks, ya'll are the best!! : )
 
Jul 5, 2010
34
catalina 22 Texas
Lots of good suggestions already mentioned.

My own experience over the past 25 years does not include a single knock down, most likely due to watching the forecasts and sailing conservatively, watching ripples and cats paws on the water, and reducing sail area early.

Once sailing east out of Little Current in the North Channel of Georgian Bay, I was close hauled under full canvas of main and jib making to clear a rocky headland. The wind was steadily building but I was able to hold course at 15-20 degrees of heel on the clinometer. Nearing the point, the wind strengthened to the point where the rudder started acting like a brake and the boat rounded into the wind spilling air then would fall off again until rounding up. I passed the point and fell off the wind toward my destination but I am quite sure my Admiral would not have appreciated it if she was with me ;-)

My understanding of permissible heeling came from sailing alongside a Hinkley yacht heading in toward Mansett Harbor, Mount Desert Island, Maine from the Atlantic Ocean. She was over-canvased with the lee side cabin windows awash with everybody hunkered down in what looked like comfortable nooks and the skipper standing on the edges of the seats with the mast over at least 45 degrees. Up to that moment, I thought my 15 degrees was a lot!
I think I sail as you do, conservatively. Hearing about your experiences gives me good, useable information. Much appreciated.

I don't think I'm understanding the "admiral' comments. Do explain... ;)
 
Sep 21, 2005
297
Catalina 22 Henderson Bay, NY
We sail on the east end of Lake Ontario, so the wind and waves can get get strong and large. We have to keep an eye on the forcast, and this should be done no matter where you sail. About five years ago we added 75 lbs of sand in the small cubby in the bow, under the v berth. I can't tell you what a differance this has made. The bow in the boat is alittle light anyway, and this helps to stop the bow from being pushes around. If you have ever had anyone ride on the bow you will know how it makes the boat feel. We felt 75 lbs was about right. Just a thought.

Dale
 

OldCat

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Jul 26, 2005
728
Catalina , Nacra 5.8, Laser, Hobie Hawk Wonmop, CO
Bilbo,

I agree with your post, I got off topic into areas of wilder sailing on a mountain foothill lake. The mountain lakes get a somewhat steadier and higher average wind, the lower lakes winds don't shift as much.

I should not have gotten so far from a newer sailor's questions...

OC
 

OldCat

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Jul 26, 2005
728
Catalina , Nacra 5.8, Laser, Hobie Hawk Wonmop, CO
I've noticed the J's look like they handle heeling better, i witnessed it several times in our lake in Austin. This pic doesn't show the scary heeling he was doing, a gust make picture taking hard that day...
J's - at least J22's - do handle heeling better. I would not worry about that aspect - a broach is is not that bad after the first time. Though it is better to sail flat - and within your comfort zone.

Drop sail and motor if it gets scary. You can always think about what was happening over a cup of coffee and figure it out for the next go at it.

OC
 

OldCat

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Jul 26, 2005
728
Catalina , Nacra 5.8, Laser, Hobie Hawk Wonmop, CO
Ken - vang? I have 2 lines coming off the boom. one closer to the mast and one closer to the end of the boom. I thought the one closest to the mast (on the boom) was the boom vang?

I hate to say it - but if this is still your boom - I'd recommend starting a rigging thread - it looks a bit messy and hard operate. A boom vang is further forward, from boom to base of mast at a ~45 degree angle. Harken has some great advise on how to rig an outhaul on their site. They show a 4:1 system that is excellent for a C22 - IMHO - better and stronger than Catalina Direct's system.

Since you can always motor or sail on the genoa alone - I'd fix the above stuff before worrying about reefing. Practice sailing on only the Genoa in moderate winds winds that feel comfortable for you. The boat will sail upwind and tack on only the head sail. A roller furling head sail is the cat's meow for a new sailor since it is easy to reef if, widening your comfortable wind range under sail.

That said - a good reefing system should be on your list - unless I missed a post where you already have a good system set up.

OC
 

OldCat

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Jul 26, 2005
728
Catalina , Nacra 5.8, Laser, Hobie Hawk Wonmop, CO
OK, more posts - rigging pictures.

Pictures of Harken outhaul and boom vang systems. Catalina Direct sells good vang systems, this style outhaul needs to be pieced together from parts. You also need a boom down haul and Cunningham to control luff tension - more stuff to find pictures for.

Note that the eyes for the line terminations and blocks on the outhaul have their pair of screws in line with the load - this is stronger than the Catalina Direct system that uses a perpendicular eye for the blocks (the one already on the boom). I used a horn cleat on that was already on the boom for the outhaul end and not a cam cleat as Harken shows.

OC
 

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Ken

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Jun 1, 2004
1,182
Catalina 22 P. P. Y. C.
vang

Knotalot,

Sorry for the delay (caught the bug)

You are correct the Vang at the front of the boom, it is usually a 4 to 1 system. It should be on a 45* angle from the base of the mast to the boom.

I have to agree with OC on your boom, it's busy! Pretty sure without being on your boat that your confused, it confused me. Going to include a picture of the end of mine for you. The shackle is the end of the out-haul, the cheek block you can see is the topping lift. (there's the set rule on topping lifts)

From the picture it appears someone has added a topping lift on your boat.

For reefing there should be a eye strap on the port side of your boom, a line would attach there continue up through the grommet on the sail (about two feet up on the leech) back down to a cheek block on the starboard side of the boom, forward on the boom to a cleat also on the starboard side. On the front of the boom there most likely is a second cleat on the again on the starboard side.

(do a search for Harken reefing systems on google)

When I used the two line system, I added a reefing hook to the goose neck the front grommet, the sail was attached by just pulling it down and hooking it on, re-tightening the halyard.

Like OC I'd probably NOT trust any of the lines in the picture, looks like the PO got every bit of life there was from them.

Changing lines here your going to once again run into "what do you like" in the size of replacement lines. I doubt any of us have the same size lines. Larger lines are easier on the hands.

My Halyards 1/4", sheets 5/16" Whatever you replace with make sure you use the proper lines and you'll have years of trouble free service from them. When my rig is down I put a bags over my lines for added UV protection. (this a good time to learn to splice too) :D

I chose not to use the keel locking bolt, in fact I removed it completely on my swing keel boat. There are two schools of thought on that bolt those that are called the lockers and those that are called the non-lockers, in time you will form your "own opinion".

The "Admiral", that would be your better half! Everyone knows they call the shots and are "in charge" :eek: Right? :D
 

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OldCat

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Jul 26, 2005
728
Catalina , Nacra 5.8, Laser, Hobie Hawk Wonmop, CO
I don't think I'm understanding the "admiral' comments. Do explain... ;)
knotalot,

You are a Captain - not an Admiral. A Captain is a person in command of a boat.;)

Admiral is a term of endearment for a generally non-sailing significant other. Said Admiral may or may not crew occasionally on the boat. Not infrequently an Admiral will resent (at least a little bit) money spent on the boat and time the captain spends aboard. I have kids and take them sailing, and my Admiral considers that as quality parent time. Still, sometimes I hear about life balance...:neutral:

I don't understand the "life balance" issue because I think that I do have the C22 balanced most of the time... :confused:

OC
 
Dec 11, 2008
1,338
catalina C27 stillwater
The last three posts make me very concerned about the Admiral's and my relationship, as we own several boats at the moment, 3 of which are sailboats, one of which is in the water, and another in the shop under remodel...

:D
 
Jul 5, 2010
34
catalina 22 Texas
First off, I can't thank all of you enough for engaging in informative comments. It has been truly helpful.

So, though up-to-date photos might give you an idea where I am at:

sides of boom:



and



So, what am I looking at? Is the rigging set up properly? At all? Am I able to reef the main like that or do I need to redo the lines? Any suggestions on how?

I also took some photos of the boom vang (i think it's the boom vang):



and



Sorry for the bad photos, it was my camera phone.

I am still digesting the 'Admiral' thing. I would never let the 'captain' sail by himself. And I'm the one complaining that we are not spending enough money fast enough to fix her up. What do the other 'Admirals' do when on board? If I can't be working the sheets, life on knotalot is knotalotoffun...

:)
 
Aug 7, 2010
90
Catalina 22 Stockton Lake, Missouri
My Admirable leans back against the bulkhead and says "wake me when we get to wherever it is you're going" Although that sounds flip it really isn't. She thoroughly enjoys being on the Shirley Jean and suffering from Rheumatoid Arthritis she soaks up all the heat she can. If I need a hand she's the first there....well...with the arthritis she isn't the fastest but she is dogged in her determination. Having little strength left in her hands the Admirable is kinda limited but by golly she trys!!
 
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Aug 7, 2010
90
Catalina 22 Stockton Lake, Missouri
I'll take a beginners stab at part of this. According to the way my 1984 Cat 22 rigs your outhaul is wrong, the line from the clew of the sail. I believe there's an outhaul block missing and some cleats. The way the line is rigged through the cheek block isn't correct. I believe that cheek block is for single line reefing as with the guide I see on the boom forward of the cheek block. And for Heavens sake...if one of these expereienced sailors say something different from what I've said, listen to them!!!!!!! I'm pretty new at this myself but had a great summer of learning.

Does your main sail have a grommet at the luff and in the leech of the sail about 3 ft. up from the foot and 4 or 5 "strings" equally spaced on each side of the main sail at about the same level? If so, that stuff is for reefing. I can't see them in the pics. If so, then all you have to do is rig your single or double line reefing system.

I've learned from and enjoyed this thread. Thank you for asking your question knotalot.

Vic
 

Ken

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Jun 1, 2004
1,182
Catalina 22 P. P. Y. C.
If your thinking it's not quite right you are correct. I bet there is a tremendous amount of drag on the line.

The cheek block on the starboard side of your boom is for a single line reefing system, on the port side there is a eye strap your line should start here continue up through the grommet on the leech of the sail back down to the boom through the cheek block forward (I see more eye straps) it will feed through these to the mast. Here is where it's going to have to stop for me. I cannot tell what was used the continue the line.

I will tell you about my own, I have another cheek block on the mast, this allows the line to turn down to the base of the mast (tabernacle) through another block over to an organiser then back to a clutch.

I will add one "other" point, when it comes time for you to reef and you will at some point. Now to my point, you'll want to make sure when you tidy up the middle (and that's all the two middle straps do) not to get them too tight and risk having your sail ripped. (one of the guys I cruise with has had this happen) I never tie up the middle of my sail, That is tidying up the sail. I've never found it to be in the way or unsightly
 
Jul 5, 2010
34
catalina 22 Texas
I'll take a beginners stab at part of this. According to the way my 1984 Cat 22 rigs your outhaul is wrong, the line from the clew of the sail. I believe there's an outhaul block missing and some cleats. The way the line is rigged through the cheek block isn't correct. I believe that cheek block is for single line reefing as with the guide I see on the boom forward of the cheek block. And for Heavens sake...if one of these expereienced sailors say something different from what I've said, listen to them!!!!!!! I'm pretty new at this myself but had a great summer of learning.

Does your main sail have a grommet at the luff and in the leech of the sail about 3 ft. up from the foot and 4 or 5 "strings" equally spaced on each side of the main sail at about the same level? If so, that stuff is for reefing. I can't see them in the pics. If so, then all you have to do is rig your single or double line reefing system.

I've learned from and enjoyed this thread. Thank you for asking your question knotalot.

Vic
Vic - thanks for taking the time to read. I looked through pics and found one of the front of the main sail. It has 2 grommets, so my assumption is there are 2 on the front side and 2 on the backside. As far as additional lines on the sails, there are none. I am finding that the previous owner seems to be a unexperienced DIY'er. Found many things that made me go hmmmm...

This thread has been incredible! I love the people on this forum. It is so sweet of them to take the time to give such well-thought out responses. Really increased my learning, glad it was helpful to you as well!!
 
Jul 5, 2010
34
catalina 22 Texas
If your thinking it's not quite right you are correct. I bet there is a tremendous amount of drag on the line.

The cheek block on the starboard side of your boom is for a single line reefing system, on the port side there is a eye strap your line should start here continue up through the grommet on the leech of the sail back down to the boom through the cheek block forward (I see more eye straps) it will feed through these to the mast. Here is where it's going to have to stop for me. I cannot tell what was used the continue the line.

I will tell you about my own, I have another cheek block on the mast, this allows the line to turn down to the base of the mast (tabernacle) through another block over to an organiser then back to a clutch.

I will add one "other" point, when it comes time for you to reef and you will at some point. Now to my point, you'll want to make sure when you tidy up the middle (and that's all the two middle straps do) not to get them too tight and risk having your sail ripped. (one of the guys I cruise with has had this happen) I never tie up the middle of my sail, That is tidying up the sail. I've never found it to be in the way or unsightly
Ken - appreciate the info. Don't know how much drag is there, never tried to 'reef the main'. Thanks to all of you, at least I can say I know what it means. I will keep absorbing and determine a reef system sometime this week.

Thanks for adding your one other point. That was great, I was wondering about tying them and if there was a 'too tight'.
 
Jul 5, 2010
34
catalina 22 Texas
I also think that your lines are wrong. Your out haul is going through the jiffy reefing cleats. Maybe try viewing this modified image.
.
Bilbo - that is great. Illustrations always add to the learning curve. Clarification: out haul cleat should go on port side, yes? that makes good sense. Did the green denote the port side and red denote the starboard side?

Yes, I looked at another photo and there are grommets on the sail. Looks like the sail is also reinforced around the area of the grommets.

I really appreciate your time. I will get her rigged and post a photo for review. Wanted to check it out today, but never got past the sanding of the teak...

Much love to all!!
 
Oct 12, 2009
55
Catalina 22 Buffalo
Drag on a line may not seem like a big deal but when wind pressure fills a sail, the friction adds just enough resistance to make the effort required nearly impossible to work against. Lines need to be free of interference and that means no sliding against anything that won't turn or anything with friction unless the line is not supposed to slip.

In layman's terms, the outhaul needs to be through a turning eye or a pulley (preferable) before running back to a cleat and the reefing line should go through cheek blocks on the boom. Also, don't forget to lubricate the bushings/bearings on those blocks.

Oh, and when reducing sail area, either do it before heading out and raising the sail or if you are already out sailing, do yourself a favor and heave-to by backwinding the jib so you can reef the main on a relatively flat, though rolling, deck with the boom sheeted well in so you don't have to worry about leaning out to tie the sail ties down to the boom. If you watch the weather and prefer to (1) sail conservatively and (2) daysail, reefing before setting out is the simplest way to go.

Practice makes perfect and once you get the idea of what needs to be done to reduce sail area, then work up to doing it underway. It's the experienced adventurer who reefs while still making headway and there are no prizes for being able to do that!
 

Joe

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Jun 1, 2004
7,999
Catalina 27 Mission Bay, San Diego
Dude......... do your self a big favor and call catalina yachts customer service... you can google it... and ask them to send you a copy of the OWNER'S MANUAL for your boat. Do it today. In the manual are intructions on how to rig your boat. Forget it, I found it for you.... unfortunately this manual shows the end of boom reefing cheek block in the wrong position. It should be located slightly aft of the reef cringle so it can pull the new clew down and back insuring good foot tension....

http://www.catalina22.org/manuals/mnl87/handbook.htm#4.1

BTW, heeling the boat past about 15 degrees is SLOW... these boats, as are most Catalinas, are designed to be sailed flat, with very little heel. When you heel over too far the rudder will become detached and the vessel will BROACH. Which means it will rapidly turn up into the wind, out of control, boom swinging wildly. Very dangerous. So quit pretending you're on a Hobie cat trying to fly a hull to impress people on the beach. The name of the game in sailing is to be in control of the boat in all conditions.... anything else is a candidate for "Jackass" the movie.
 
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