Heeling

[knotalot22]

Does anyone have any first hand knowledge about heeling in a cat 22 or 25?

I am new and heeling is fun, but terrifying for me. Lack of information is probably causing a lot this.

Does anyone know what the maximum heel is for a cat 22 before capsize?

Will the boat really flip over?

Is it 'self-righting'?

Is this model easy to sink? (1985 cat 22) I was told there was a design flaw in that there is no separation between the cabin and the cockpit compartments. If water is taken on in the cabin, it will also fill the cockpit compartments, making it heavy, causing sinkage...

Right now I only sail in winds of 5-10mph on lakes and am trying to get comfortable heeling at 15-20 degrees. I have learned how to ease up and reduce heeling when I get uncomfortable, but it would be helpful to know what will happen at 20-25-30 or 40 degrees.

I'd prefer to hear your experiences before trying these on my own. : )

 

[OldCat]

Does anyone have any first hand knowledge about heeling in a cat 22 or 25?

I am new and heeling is fun, but terrifying for me. Lack of information is probably causing a lot this.

Does anyone know what the maximum heel is for a cat 22 before capsize?

Will the boat really flip over?

Is it 'self-righting'?

Is this model easy to sink? (1985 cat 22) I was told there was a design flaw in that there is no separation between the cabin and the cockpit compartments. If water is taken on in the cabin, it will also fill the cockpit compartments, making it heavy, causing sinkage...

Right now I only sail in winds of 5-10mph on lakes and am trying to get comfortable heeling at 15-20 degrees. I have learned how to ease up and reduce heeling when I get uncomfortable, but it would be helpful to know what will happen at 20-25-30 or 40 degrees.

I'd prefer to hear your experiences before trying these on my own. : )

Past ~40 degrees the boat will round up into the wind, probably tack and heave itself too. It is a little dramatic because water comes into the cockpit over the stern part of the deck. This much I know from, ah, not uncleating the mainsheet in time .

Other than that, it is nothing to fear IF the waves are not way too big (on edit - I have no idea how what is BIG for a C22 in waves - they are not a factor on my lake - for any sailboat there is a breaking wave that is too BIG).

The likelihood of capsize or heeling over far enough to swamp/sink the boat are pretty low for me because the waves don't get that high on the lake where I sail. The boat does have a reasonable bridge deck, so that helps keep water out from down below.

There are very few boats that cannot capsize, but is is very, very unlikely unless you push the weather envelope way too far.I would guess that you could always fill that starboard stern compartment, and others, with air bags if you are really concerned.

To have more control over the boat - modify the rear main sheet. The combination of rear mounted sheet and too low a mount for the blocks makes it hard to uncleat. My cheap solution was to move the lower block upward 6" by using a shroud tang from a catamaran, this makes the main sheet much easier to control.:dance:

OC

 

[knotalot22]

OldCat - thanks!!

What does 'round up into the wind' mean. I am green, and not in the environmentally friendly kinda way.

Haven't seen any big waves on my lake and I don't take her out in rough weather.

"To have more control over the boat - modify the rear main sheet. The combination of rear mounted sheet and too low a mount for the blocks makes it hard to uncleat. My cheap solution was to move the lower block upward 6" by using a shroud tang from a catamaran, this makes the main sheet much easier to control."

I didn't understand this at all...

 

[piedpiperIII]

Rounding up means that the boat will "by itself" turn up into the wind thus stopping the heal. I was all over this topic before as I am somewhat new also. 15 to 20 deg. of heal is the best sailing heal for this boat anymore and it's a strain on the boat and rigging from what I was told. You can control your heal by either reefing the main, using 1 less sail or as I do in gusty winds, let out the main sheet. I have gone over 40deg. of heal and the boat did round up and so fast that I didn't have time to get scared, water did wash over and went out the drain. You did not say if you had a fixed keel or swing, I beleive the fixed keel is more forgiving but this is just what I have read and I do have a fixed keel. You can see some heavy wind sailing of my boat on you tube, type in "piedpiperIII" and look for windy sailing you can gety an idea how much heel we take on. Alan

 

[OldCat]

OldCat - thanks!!

What does 'round up into the wind' mean. I am green, and not in the environmentally friendly kinda way.

Haven't seen any big waves on my lake and I don't take her out in rough weather.

"To have more control over the boat - modify the rear main sheet. The combination of rear mounted sheet and too low a mount for the blocks makes it hard to uncleat. My cheap solution was to move the lower block upward 6" by using a shroud tang from a catamaran, this makes the main sheet much easier to control."

I didn't understand this at all...

Since piedpiperIII explained broaching (rounding up), here is my main sheet mod:

Murrays Catamaran part #25-3310 or 25-3300 at : http://www.murrays.com/archive/53.pdf

Let me know if the picture helps.

OC

 

[OldCat]

I would not worry about capsize/swamping much on most lakes - one like your description. Feed main sheet out 12-18" at a time. If the wind is too much, reef or get the sails down and motor in. If the wind is way too much, avoid the dock & hold the boat into the wind with the motor without the boat moving more than very slowly.

Study/practice additional storm skills: You can sail in a lot more wind with just a head sail up. Get a sailing book that shows how to heave too under sail - so you are not as dependent on the motor - the C22 may require active use of the tiller in spite of what the books say if the wind is shifty. Know how to anchor in a windward bay or inlet.

Best o' Luck
OC

 

[Sea22]

I am also very new to sailing, so keep that in mind when weighing my advice, but I have had similar experiences.

I was sailing "close hauled"(close to the direction of the wind, which gives maximum heal) in about a 15 knot wind when I got hit by a couple of big gusts and next thing I knew the "lee deck"(the one away from the wind) was in the water! I was standing on the side of the seat on the other side of the cockpit! It seemed I lost rudder authority, my guess being there wasn't much rudder in the water, but the boat turned into the wind and righted itself. No water in the cockpit, just a few things thrown around in the cabin. I was like a kid at the carnival and wanted to to it again, but the "admiral" thought better so we dropped the main and sailed with the jib only, and were fine the rest of the day.

I am also a member of the National C-22 Association, and the latest "Mainbrace", the assoc. Magazine, has a picture of a C-22 that got "knocked down"(blown over on it's side) during a race. The boat righted itself after taking on only 20 gallons of water(not as much as it sounds) and they went on sailing, and won the race!

I am still learning, but I feel better knowing that this boat knows what it is doing even when I don't.

I would just make sure that when you are sailing, you put a couple of "carabiners" on the cockpit lockers so that if you do go over, they don't open and let in more water than might get in otherwise. My boat is an '86 so it only has one locker that opens to the cabin, but both of your's do, so keep one on both.

Tom,
DFW

 

[piedpiperIII]

Bilbo, you are rite this is what I was trying to show. Our lake is real funning with the wind as it changes all the time and can become very gusty at times so I just play with the main sheet to control unwanted heel. Alan

 

[knotalot22]

Rounding up means that the boat will "by itself" turn up into the wind thus stopping the heal. I was all over this topic before as I am somewhat new also. 15 to 20 deg. of heal is the best sailing heal for this boat anymore and it's a strain on the boat and rigging from what I was told. You can control your heal by either reefing the main, using 1 less sail or as I do in gusty winds, let out the main sheet. I have gone over 40deg. of heal and the boat did round up and so fast that I didn't have time to get scared, water did wash over and went out the drain. You did not say if you had a fixed keel or swing, I beleive the fixed keel is more forgiving but this is just what I have read and I do have a fixed keel. You can see some heavy wind sailing of my boat on you tube, type in "piedpiperIII" and look for windy sailing you can gety an idea how much heel we take on. Alan

Alan - the video's were helpful, appreciate it. I am comfortable up to 10 degrees and trying to gain more exposure with 11-15 degrees.

I don't know how to 'reef the main' yet and my internet searches take me all over the place. I have a swing keel and haven't been in really strong winds yet. I am starting to understand 'rounding up'. Currently I pull her into irons when I get to scared, breathe and then tack back into the wind. I am going to start locking the cockpit hatches and cabin for now on...

 

[knotalot22]

Since piedpiperIII explained broaching (rounding up), here is my main sheet mod:

Murrays Catamaran part #25-3310 or 25-3300 at : http://www.murrays.com/archive/53.pdf

Let me know if the picture helps.

OC

OldCat - picture helped a lot. That makes sense, I think I'll try that mod and let you kow how it goes!!

 

[knotalot22]

I am also very new to sailing, so keep that in mind when weighing my advice, but I have had similar experiences.

I was sailing "close hauled"(close to the direction of the wind, which gives maximum heal) in about a 15 knot wind when I got hit by a couple of big gusts and next thing I knew the "lee deck"(the one away from the wind) was in the water! I was standing on the side of the seat on the other side of the cockpit! It seemed I lost rudder authority, my guess being there wasn't much rudder in the water, but the boat turned into the wind and righted itself. No water in the cockpit, just a few things thrown around in the cabin. I was like a kid at the carnival and wanted to to it again, but the "admiral" thought better so we dropped the main and sailed with the jib only, and were fine the rest of the day.

I am also a member of the National C-22 Association, and the latest "Mainbrace", the assoc. Magazine, has a picture of a C-22 that got "knocked down"(blown over on it's side) during a race. The boat righted itself after taking on only 20 gallons of water(not as much as it sounds) and they went on sailing, and won the race!

I am still learning, but I feel better knowing that this boat knows what it is doing even when I don't.

I would just make sure that when you are sailing, you put a couple of "carabiners" on the cockpit lockers so that if you do go over, they don't open and let in more water than might get in otherwise. My boat is an '86 so it only has one locker that opens to the cabin, but both of your's do, so keep one on both.

Tom,
DFW

Tom - the story was indeed helpful. I think that's what my brain wants to know when I heel and get scared - will i be ok? Sounds like I will.

Aaahhh, the joy of learning something new! <3

 

[Ken]

upgrades

If your boat doesn't have a Vang, put that at the top of the list as far as upgrades go. From there an out-haul, I've had both the external (was useless IMO) I now have an internal out-haul much easy to use. Next you for sure want to add the reefing line. Once again this is going to be a personal choice, All you need is two pieces of line to reef the sail, after a while you may find you like the two line system, some like a single line. I've had them both I really like the single line and the fact I can reef in about 20 seconds brings a smile every time I've used it.

I sail inland lakes and down at the Gulf both the bays and the Gulf, so far the only place I've suffered a knock down.....The small lake near where I live. We put the spreaders in the water about ten inches. Released the sheets and boat righted itself.

It did tear the batter loose, but I learned the piece of plywood used by the factory had dry rotted, once the fiberglass mat was cut away what was left of the plywood was removed using a shop vac. Another of those upgrades, my advise would be glass in one of the new new fiberglass battery trays or replace the plywood with a real battery tray one you can trust to hold the battery in place.

You in the right place for solid advise.

The was the swing keel model I use to own. Many times we heel the boat to the point water shipped over the coaming. Never felt the boat was out of control. It's the high gust that will raise the pucker factor

The wing keel we bought last year is a much stiffer boat it doesn't want to heel nearly as far as the swing keel. I should add it's also a bigger boat than the oldstyle.

I have several friends that sail the really early models old style, they act more like a dinghy while sailing, one of the reason they are so desirable for the racing circuit.

Good luck, nothing beats "tiller time"

 

[Stu Jackson]

http://www.catalina22.org/

Learn to reef. There should be a manual on this website.

 

[Captain 9330]

Lots of good suggestions already mentioned.

My own experience over the past 25 years does not include a single knock down, most likely due to watching the forecasts and sailing conservatively, watching ripples and cats paws on the water, and reducing sail area early.

Once sailing east out of Little Current in the North Channel of Georgian Bay, I was close hauled under full canvas of main and jib making to clear a rocky headland. The wind was steadily building but I was able to hold course at 15-20 degrees of heel on the clinometer. Nearing the point, the wind strengthened to the point where the rudder started acting like a brake and the boat rounded into the wind spilling air then would fall off again until rounding up. I passed the point and fell off the wind toward my destination but I am quite sure my Admiral would not have appreciated it if she was with me ;-)

My understanding of permissible heeling came from sailing alongside a Hinkley yacht heading in toward Mansett Harbor, Mount Desert Island, Maine from the Atlantic Ocean. She was over-canvased with the lee side cabin windows awash with everybody hunkered down in what looked like comfortable nooks and the skipper standing on the edges of the seats with the mast over at least 45 degrees. Up to that moment, I thought my 15 degrees was a lot!

 

[OldCat]

They can lay down 90 degs.

Probably not. It could also "pitch-pole" Like head over heels. But that is hard to do.

Let's not scare the newer skippers:naughty: - a Pitch Pole would be almost impossible on a lake - generally this takes large breaking waves on a ballasted boat. Unless sailing in a hurricane...

nothing is going to stop 550 lbs of swing keel from breaking the hull.

I would hope that the keel lock bolt would prevent this, or at least provide enough friction to slow it down and not to blow a hole in the hull. However, I am not volunteering to be the tester...

At about 75 degrees of heel on a J22 - the sails are so flat to the water that the boat won't go over any farther. I have tested this... twice . A local sailing instructor sank a J22 in 6 feet of water when two very heavy students refused to move in a tack. Also, a spinnaker could make things much more exciting.

It is good to experiment in safety but more than 15 degrees is not going to mean that you are moving faster.

Generally true - but none of the fast racers sail that way here. Yep - they don't. The local conditions are that when the wind gets up - it is very gusty with significant holes before each gust. The gust to base wind ratio is also significantly higher than most other areas. Because of this, racers sail for the average wind - unreefed. They heel over in the gusts because for a few seconds they are overpowered. Reefed they would lose too much in the average wind, so they give up some in the gusts.

Heeling over and sheeting out to control it are part of sailing here. Even the best racers with added rail meat can't react fast enough to prevent 30 degrees of heel. Most of the time the wind is light here - but when it gets up - it's wacky. The basic principles are the same, but local conditions can matter.

OTH: when uncomfortable - reef. Speed matters less than maintaining control.

JMHO, OC

 

[txtowman]

I have had mine on Corpus Christi Bay and Galveston Bay in wind so hard the 6 hp motor wouldn't hardly push it.

I have had the rails in the water, had waves come over the bow and into the cockpit and never had a knockdown.

It really surprised me how well it handled the rough weather.

If You go to corpus be ready for plenty of wind. Not necessarily high wind but it blows almost all the time.

 

[davidf]

Knotalot,
You've gotten a lot of excellent advice so far. The youtube video was good for showing how much wind you can take and still be in control. I've had the "rails in the water" many times. It's actually harder to get there than you think. Here are a couple more suggestions to try.

Don't pinch so hard. Let your sails out a little and don't point so high. You'll heel less and pick up speed.

If the wind is up over about 15, make your sails as flat as possible. Tighten the outhaul, vang and halyard so the main is board flat as possible. Adjust the jib cars so your jib is flat too.

Let out the traveler. It's not much of one on a C22 but letting it out will help depower the sail and reduce heeling.

And lastly, if you have access to a Sunfish or similar board boat. Get out on that on some windy days and learn to like the feel of heeling. Then the Catalina won't feel so tippy after all!

Where in Texas do you sail?

 

[OldCat]

Bilbo - I agree with you on heeling - IF the winds are consistent. When the wind is up here it is so inconsistent that expert opinions from other sailing venues need modification around the edges. It is one thing to sail in 12 gusting to 16; quite another to sail in 10 dropping to 2 and quickly gusting to 25.

Heeling is not fast - but in our local gusts it just beats being slow the rest of the time.

I have sailed J22's more than my C22 - I appreciate that the two are different. I am a little surprised that the bolt won't hold the keel - but - like I said - I don't want to be the tester.

On windy days, you can pass a J22 on our lake even though it is moving faster just by knowing the arc the wind makes across the lake and the rhythm of the wind - correcting for the lull which has a header big enough to backwind the head sail - then taking advantage of the big lift in the gust. Because the "(gust)/(base wind)" ratio is higher than most places - we carry full sail to be fast even though we will get knocked over in the gusts. You can't sheet out enough to control the heel at 15 deg. Local conditions mean the 'experts' have to be taken in context of differing wind variances...

Sadly, more days are light and shifty than fast and gusty...

OC

 

[knotalot22]

Oldcat, I don't want to scare anybody but if a person asks a question such as is it possible?.... Then they should have the facts that it is. possible but probably unlikely.

Regarding heel angle, the C22s may have a different hull shape from the J22s.
So 15 degs is about good for this "wide body" boat. THis is not my finding. THis is a statement from many C 22 racing pilots...of which I'm not one.
Some other interesting reading:
https://sites.google.com/site/catalina22experiment/home/basics-for-advanced-sailors-501
http://arizonayachtclub.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/Allen.pdf

http://www.catalinadirect.com/forums/fr_topic.cfm?topic_id=7072
Especially excellent advice from the late Dick King in the above link.

Again, I don't want to scare anybody but some people think that sailboats should sail with great heel or they aren't experiencing "the edge of excitement." IF a beginner has this attitude, they could end up in trouble. It is better to be safe than sorry.

Regarding the keel lock down bolt. It simply won't hold the keel out if the boat goes turtle.
This bolt will bend AND wear a semi circular groove into the keel as the keel moves toward the hull. This is not a common situation of course but it is evident in the fact that the winch has such a mechanical advantage on these boats that the keel can be winched up by a 65 lb child with the lock down bolt tight and not even be bothered by any excessive feel of tension.

We do completely agree that : "Speed matters less than maintaining control."

Bilbo - thanks for the great info.

It's not scary information, it's important information. Owning a boat is a 2-sided coin. It is either a super fun water craft, or a death machine, depending on users knowledge, expertise & common sense.

From what I learned yesterday here, maximum keel in the cat 22 doesn't make it go faster, just makes it terrifying for me. As a novice, I am very comfortable at 10 degrees, and with the knowledge learned here, will be way more comfortable heeling at 15 degrees. I really have no desire to heel more. I want to be sailing for many years, I prefer to take it slow.

I love your statement - "speed matters less than maintaining control". I'm adding that quote to my blog.

 

[knotalot22]

If your boat doesn't have a Vang, put that at the top of the list as far as upgrades go. From there an out-haul, I've had both the external (was useless IMO) I now have an internal out-haul much easy to use. Next you for sure want to add the reefing line. Once again this is going to be a personal choice, All you need is two pieces of line to reef the sail, after a while you may find you like the two line system, some like a single line. I've had them both I really like the single line and the fact I can reef in about 20 seconds brings a smile every time I've used it.

I sail inland lakes and down at the Gulf both the bays and the Gulf, so far the only place I've suffered a knock down.....The small lake near where I live. We put the spreaders in the water about ten inches. Released the sheets and boat righted itself.

It did tear the batter loose, but I learned the piece of plywood used by the factory had dry rotted, once the fiberglass mat was cut away what was left of the plywood was removed using a shop vac. Another of those upgrades, my advise would be glass in one of the new new fiberglass battery trays or replace the plywood with a real battery tray one you can trust to hold the battery in place.

You in the right place for solid advise.

The was the swing keel model I use to own. Many times we heel the boat to the point water shipped over the coaming. Never felt the boat was out of control. It's the high gust that will raise the pucker factor

The wing keel we bought last year is a much stiffer boat it doesn't want to heel nearly as far as the swing keel. I should add it's also a bigger boat than the oldstyle.

I have several friends that sail the really early models old style, they act more like a dinghy while sailing, one of the reason they are so desirable for the racing circuit.

Good luck, nothing beats "tiller time"

Ken - vang? I have 2 lines coming off the boom. one closer to the mast and one closer to the end of the boom. I thought the one closest to the mast (on the boom) was the boom vang?

I probably have an out-haul and just don't know it.

I am trying to figure out if we have a reefing line. There is a line on the side of the boom, haven't used it yet. I think I'll try this weekend, to move the sail with that rope and see what happens, while safely docked.

Reefing - decreasing the amount of sail surface. Does that mean lowering the top of the sail some, or moving the sail foot (clew) closer to the mast on the boom?

The battery sits on a fiberglass battery tray, is that good or bad?

Tiller time - excellent advice!! Thanks!