head sea cocks

Jun 23, 2015
117
Hunter H34 Deltaville
Tracking down the stink in my new (to me) H34 I found a PO attempted to repair the top connection to the holding tank with a few screws, apparently a long time ago as there is significant rot in the floor and bottom of seat. The two seacocks for the head are black and the discharge is frozen in the open position.

I'm new to all of this on a boat but not to plumbing so I have two large pipe wrenches but they don't fit due to the curvature of the hull. I am very leery of putting side pressure on the hull to break the joint. I have experience with radiator "spud" wrenches that are similar to steep wrench that go inside of the fitting but from my experience this will require way too much force on the small nipples inside and will probably break them off.

Unless someone has an alternative my plan is to use a sawzall to cut the valve & ell off then cut the retaining nut off the thru hull fittings and replace both. I have looked at several threads about replacing with true thru hull fittings but none have addressed this situation.

I assume the blacking of the fittings is from the leaking tank.
Thanks
 

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Aug 26, 2015
21
Edel 820CC Whitby,ontario
the blueishness looks like corrosion from hydrogen sulphide (i think thats what its called) its from decomposting organic material primarily blackwater. an angle grinder may cut with less vibration. that fitting is not going to be fun to get off.
 
Dec 2, 1997
8,710
- - LIttle Rock
I wouldn't try to repair any of that...it'll cost you more than replacing it all.

I'm guessing the rectangular "plate" under one of the fittings is wood. Whatever the plastic "sheet" is, it's seriously cracked But the fittings are obviously metal--which should never be used in a marine sanitation system. I don't see anything in your photo that looks like a holding tank, but based on what I can see and what you've said about PO repair attempts, it's not likely to be salvageable either....(and btw..."rot in the bottom of WHAT seat?") I'm betting, that the toilet is also too old and neglected to be salvageable. Get rid of all of it! The simplest solution to removing those fittings might be to cut out the fiberglass around 'em, glass over the holes (yards do it all the time)...and install new ones in a better location.

You said you know a lot about plumbing... Fwiw, except for "water runs downhill" in boats and buildings, there's very little if anything that applies to plumbing on land that'll work on a boat...'cuz systems on a boat don't work the same way. Trying to apply the same principles ends up just causes problems.

If you'd like some help spec'ing out a system that will work, you're welcome to shoot an email.
 
Aug 26, 2015
21
Edel 820CC Whitby,ontario
I wouldn't try to repair any of that...it'll cost you more than replacing it all.

I'm guessing the rectangular "plate" under one of the fittings is wood. Whatever the plastic "sheet" is, it's seriously cracked But the fittings are obviously metal--which should never be used in a marine sanitation system. I don't see anything in your photo that looks like a holding tank, but based on what I can see and what you've said about PO repair attempts, it's not likely to be salvageable either....(and btw..."rot in the bottom of WHAT seat?") I'm betting, that the toilet is also too old and neglected to be salvageable. Get rid of all of it! The simplest solution to removing those fittings might be to cut out the fiberglass around 'em, glass over the holes (yards do it all the time)...and install new ones in a better location.

You said you know a lot about plumbing... Fwiw, except for "water runs downhill" in boats and buildings, there's very little if anything that applies to plumbing on land that'll work on a boat...'cuz systems on a boat don't work the same way. Trying to apply the same principles ends up just causes problems.

If you'd like some help spec'ing out a system that will work, you're welcome to shoot an email.

i doubt those fittings are metal, for starters ball valves only come in bronze or stainless steel. my bet would be bronze because as i said hydrogen sulfide will eat away at bronze, stainless steel aswell but mostly staining.

i would check the holding tank vent and make sure it leaves the boat the thru hull for this should be plastic no metal/bronze/ss fittins on the vent line from the black water tank

i personally would not relocate those thru hulls, they seem fine to me. i would replace them though. relocating them is a huge job.
 
Jun 23, 2015
117
Hunter H34 Deltaville
Peggy I didn't want to start out with what I found when I removed the top (forward stard, seat H34) but since you brought it up. A bio hazard if ever there was one. It gets worse....
This in no recent leak. You can't see it but the pipes and wires run into the hull liner through a hole in the floor. Right under the leak!
You can see the saturation of the flooring and rot of the seat box bottom.
Those are two pieces of plywood backing the thruhulls. The cracking noticeable to the right of the larger one is the liner that is, or was, attached to the hull. That will be my next thread, where the "tabs??" have cracked. The hull shows no signs of stress outside. I had it hauled because this valve is frozen and even now the handle bends before moving.
I've heard this before "houses and boats are totally different trades", I'll say, now that the boats systems & frame is exposed I see work that I don't even know if it's "acceptable" but I'll tell you that if I or anyone did that on my job they wouldn't make it to coffee break.
I have the floor up and the parts under the holding tank have de-laminated and the one nearest the leak broke when I moved it.
 
Jun 23, 2015
117
Hunter H34 Deltaville
So new I can't even get the pics in the post, I didn't write that much. So....do I have to have the pics. online somewhere else as "insert img" asks for a URL?
 
Jun 23, 2015
117
Hunter H34 Deltaville
Headmistress I'm honored

Peggy, having a tough time responding through the site, keeps saying I'm way over on characters.
AnyWay, I'm a fan of the headmistress, read every post I could find. I have since removed the hoses even though others in the yard say they are the new type. They still smell in the backyard after cleaning inside and out, twice.
 

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Jun 23, 2015
117
Hunter H34 Deltaville
Hoping not to have to replace every piece

of the system. Already "screwed" by a PO who thought three screws and some white stuff would keep the other stuff in the tank.

The stool/toilet looks like a current PHII? I don't look forward to pulling the rest of the system apart.
 

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Jun 23, 2015
117
Hunter H34 Deltaville
MattM83

I found out the hard way about the tank vent. I pumped out when I brought the boat into VA from NJ. Thought that when the sightglass on the hose stayed clear the tank was empty. But noooooo. Cleared the vent and went for another pump out. Tank still smells in backyard after repeated cleaning.
 
Aug 26, 2015
21
Edel 820CC Whitby,ontario
I found out the hard way about the tank vent. I pumped out when I brought the boat into VA from NJ. Thought that when the sightglass on the hose stayed clear the tank was empty. But noooooo. Cleared the vent and went for another pump out. Tank still smells in backyard after repeated cleaning.
site glass would be a good idea, i have a charcoal filter and no level gauge on my tank, so if i overfill its $100 for a new filter. since then have charcoal refills so only $20 but wednesday i told the wife "we cant use the head until we pumpout", i was in the middle of backing out the slip to go for pumpout when i hear swoosh, swoosh, and the black water sprays out of the vent. guess she didnt realize when i said we cant use the head i meant we absolutely cannot use the head.
 
Jun 23, 2015
117
Hunter H34 Deltaville
Not a bad idea putting odor filter on tank vent. When I replace the tank I'm thinking about one of those level sensors that go on the outside of the tank as I have no experience with how to judge the level of a holding tank.
 
Aug 26, 2015
21
Edel 820CC Whitby,ontario
Not a bad idea putting odor filter on tank vent. When I replace the tank I'm thinking about one of those level sensors that go on the outside of the tank as I have no experience with how to judge the level of a holding tank.
id suggest getting one that is refillable, get the charcoal from an aquarium store (way cheaper)

does the tank need to be replaced? if its just the fitting that was screwed down and the tanks plastic you could get it plastic welded for a fair price.

http://www.riggingshoppe.com/browse.cfm/holding-tank-vent-filter-5-8-inch-big-orange/4,23753.html
 

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Jun 23, 2015
117
Hunter H34 Deltaville
I didn't even know they had refillable ones, that's got to be less than a proprietary filter. It looks like the fittings were spin-welded to the tank and I don't know if it can be repair and unless I can get it to smell better I'll go for a new one around $250.
 
Aug 26, 2015
21
Edel 820CC Whitby,ontario
i always kinda figured if i ever need to replace a tank ill buy a plastic welder (costs about $200) and learn to weld my own tank. my tanks are pretty standard but could double my tankage by going custom
 
Dec 2, 1997
8,710
- - LIttle Rock
i doubt those fittings are metal, for starters ball valves only come in bronze or stainless steel. my bet would be bronze because as i said hydrogen sulfide will eat away at bronze, stainless steel aswell but mostly staining. .
If bronze isn't metal, what is it Matt?

[FONT=&quot]I wish I could have invented a product that actually helps to create the very problem it’s sold to solve, because that’s what a vent line filter does. Filters do trap the gasses which try to escape through the vent line, but they impede the free exchange of air needed to prevent odor from forming in the first place, eliminating the need for a filter! What’s more, they only last about a year, are toast immediately if they get wet--which makes it impossible to backflush the vent line to prevent blockages--and ridiculously expensive.
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]So learn how to maintain your tank vent--even modify it if necessary--and install a vent line filter only as a last resort, because gasses that can’t easily pass through the vent line will go wherever they can-into hoses, eventually permeating even the best ones.[/FONT]
 
Dec 2, 1997
8,710
- - LIttle Rock
i always kinda figured if i ever need to replace a tank ill buy a plastic welder (costs about $200) and learn to weld my own tank. my tanks are pretty standard but could double my tankage by going custom
Welding a tank isn't as easy as you think. There's a lot more to it than just heating a piece of PE and sticking it on another piece...and then there, are fittings which require a spin welder and the skill to use it... By the time you by the plastic welder and the spin welder and the materials, you could buy TWO really top quality seamless tanks that are guaranteed not to leak.
 
Aug 26, 2015
21
Edel 820CC Whitby,ontario
sorry, when you specified metal i assumed metal as in steel. and i completely missed the part where you specified sanitation which probably would have cleared that up for me.
 
Nov 6, 2006
9,885
Hunter 34 Mandeville Louisiana
New Dog.. couple of notes.. Those valves were replaced in the past since the boat came with gate and not ball valves.. Since you are hauled, you may be able to free the ball by tapping the ball stem and soaking with something like PB Blaster squirted at the ball/seat from the inside and outside then waiting.. You are probably correct in just changing out the whole valve(S) but the corrosion on the outside is "normal" for bronze that has been exposed to sewer gasses. Bronze is a great replacement, but a good grade of Marelon would be OK in that locker location where it won't be impacted would be good too. I see that you've already read Maine Sail's articles on replacement.. If you are going to keep the boat for any time, and want reliability, (a good idea in thru-hulls!) then new valves are in order!.. I agree with Peggy, since that tank is kind of a standard rectangular size, a good replacement would not cost much more than having it welded .. as you know (!) ya don't want those fittings leaking.. The system is normally set up so all black water goes into the tank first, then if you can pump overboard, you can do that with the hand pump. Good Luck !
 
Jun 23, 2015
117
Hunter H34 Deltaville
kloudie, thanks for the info about the original valves, the others under the sinks resemble this one and operate easily. I have no desire to reuse tank or hoses, don't even want to be down wind of them in the backyard. I would like to get a hold of the Marlon type MS says are rarely available outside of the new boat business. As I found it my system does not have any other means of emptying the holding tank other than the deck fitting. I thought about teeing in a gusher for overboard discharge. The other valves for the sinks are marked Conbraco.
Peggy, I was surprised when you clarified "no metal" as I figured the thruhull and seacock in place was proper.