Head Plumbing Installed Ugly By Boatyard

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Apr 30, 2006
12
- - Benicia, CA
I recently took my 1982 Catalina 30 to the local boatyard for a bottom job, blister repair, head replacement and plumbing. I supplied the toilet and jabsco 3 way valve and asked them to plumb it so:
1. The boat would not be in danger of sinking (there was no shutoff at outflow)
2. The head was legal (before waste went overboard even though there was a holding tank)

I live a 2 hour drive from the boat and called during the week to inquire how it was going.
I was told by the yard manager that the blisters were superficial and being taken care of for added expense of about $500. The plumbing job would be time and material. No estimate.

When I returned a week later the bottom looked great. I climbed up the ladder to take a look at the new head and was shocked to find the valve and plumbing all exposed inside next to the toilet. Take a look at the photo. I asked the yard manager why he installed it that way and he replied there was nowhere to put the valve and plumbing. He said to hide the plumbing would have been at great expense and modification of my boat. On a tight time schedule I paid the bill $3600 effing dollars and was launched.

As I continued to look at the botched job I couldn't get over it. Then I noticed one of the joints was leaking, ugh. Called the yard and the manager came out and repaired it. I told him I wasn't happy with the installation. He said well you supplied the valve and it wouldn't fit. I said why didn't you call me and tell me. He told me to take my boat somewhere else next time. Unbelievable.

I am sick about it.

Currently planning to put a towel rack above it and hang a long beach towel over it to hide the botched mess.

Does anybody have any ideas? I'm out of money and they had me sign so many legal papers I'm sure I'm up a creek without a paddle.....
 

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Jan 4, 2006
6,444
Hunter 310 West Vancouver, B.C.
Unfortunately ...........................

...................... that's the problem with dealing with the workers in most yards. The better ones are recovering heroin addicts with severe brain damage and the worst ones are failed squeegy kids. Some of the so called "mechanics" I have seen at various times are beyond belief. Good ones are few and far between. For that reason I will not let any yard goon near my boat.

I know this doesn't help in your situation, but for the large part, this is the kind work that you can expect. Get references before you let any of these idiots near your boat.

Is there any chance you can take them to small claims court ? You could certainly get a lot of mileage of that one picture.

Best of luck with this one.
 

weinie

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Sep 6, 2010
1,297
Jeanneau 349 port washington, ny
The plumbing was done correctly!
When you go from the toilet to the holding tank, usually there is no need for the vented loop that you see there since you can always shut the seacock on the line leading from the tank to the thruhull. You would just need to open it when you want to pump out the holding tank overboard. Otherwise it would be kept shut.
However, if you are going to have a line going directly from the toilet to the water, the water can siphon back up thru the thruhull and into the boat. That big 1 1/2 inch line will fill the boat faster than your bilge pump can pump it out!
That is why you need a vented loop that will always remain above the waterline even at the greatest degree of heel. Theoretically, you should have one on the incoming water hose too. Its safer than relying on the valve within the toilet to keep the water out. Its also why catalina puts a sticker in the head telling you to close all the seacocks when sailing.
Anyway, there is no real good place to hide the vented loop.
I think your mechanic did an excellent job.
As someone once said on this forum, its a boat, not a floating condo.

Edit: Looking at the pic again, I think the work was top notch. It looks like they used high quality parts and even put a nice teak backing board behind the loop.
I would talk to your yard's manager. Find out how many hours of labor and what rate they charged you.
I would argue that it shoudn't have taken that long. You can also ask to see the mechanics log for the day(s) he worked on it. He may negotiate a better price.

When I restored my 27 catalina, I replace the toilet w/ an electric.
Since I pump directly to my holding tank I do not need a vented loop on the outgoing hose.
I did put one on the incoming side as there is nothing to keep the water from coming directly into the toilet like on the manual toilets.

Edit again:
I wanted to add one more thing...
The problem with marinas and boat yards is that sometimes, you don't have much of a choice to switch if you get crappy service.
The relationship you have with the manager and mechanic is kind of like one you can have with your wife. You know, when you kinda have to just bite your lip and deal?
Believe it or not, they don't want to lose your business and they don't want to make enemies either.
I see it all the time when other members of my marina get a a little too vocal about issues and rather than communicate all nice and friendly like, they get a little too antagonistic. Flies with honey and all that...
Like a marriage or any business transaction, there needs to be good communication so that everyone is happy!

Oh, and a little gratuity at christmas time, does, contrary to what others will argue is not necessary, does in fact, go a long way!
 

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Jan 22, 2008
880
Fed up w/ personal attacks I'm done with SBO
Jibe,

I think you may have a small claims case. Even if you lose you will have the satisfaction of trying.

I see $300 in materials and 4 man-hours labor, worst case. That means they charged $700/hour for the plumbing work. Did you agree to $700 an hour?

I'd disclose my strategy and give them one last chance. They're not touching the boat again so there's only a financial remedy remaining. Let them know you are hiring a professional SAMS registered surveyor to assess their work and a reasonable value for it. Included will be an estimate of the boat's value before and after their handiwork. Let them know that you'll present the survey in a small claims case against them. Based on the survey, have a financial remedy in mind. Explain that you only paid their bill under the written threat of lien, essentially an extortion. You'll find the lien language in the fine print of the documents you signed at the beginning.

If they don't agree, follow through.

Once that's concluded, get the job done right. The way it is now, mechanically correct or not, that eyesore will be a constant reminder. I figure the reinstallation is worth $400 - $500 at professional rates but rely on your surveyor's opinion, not mine. You already own the necessary materials.
 
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Squidd

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Sep 26, 2011
890
AMF Alcort Paceship PY26 Washburn Wi. Apostle Islands
...there was nowhere to put the valve and plumbing. He said to hide the plumbing would have been at great expense and modification of my boat...
Where do you suggest he hide the loop and valve so that it is high enough to prevent back flow and still be easily accessible...?
 

Squidd

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Sep 26, 2011
890
AMF Alcort Paceship PY26 Washburn Wi. Apostle Islands
I see $300 in materials and 4 man-hours labor, worst case. That means they charged $700/hour for the plumbing work. Did you agree to $700 an hour?
You forget the haul out, bottom job, plus blister repair, yard fees and relaunch....
 

jrowan

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Mar 5, 2011
1,294
O'Day 35 Severn River, Mobjack Bay, Va.
To Jibe, I'm assuming the $3,600 u paid is also for the bottom job included in that price?
Because that price would be ridiculous for just a head replacement. There is enough room in the cabinet located behind the head to route the vented loop. Although it may reach to a point above the waterline, it would not be above the water when healed to port. That's why its more prudent to shut off all water valves when sailing, so U don't risk flooding the boat. Sometimes its more important to have safe plumbing then beauty, & I've rarely seen a head installation that would be considered aesthetically pleasing. There is the old saying, "If you want it done right do it yourself." Plus if it doesn't turn out perfect then U are the only one to blame for it. I find that the cost savings & satisfaction of a job well done. or at least done, is worth the trouble.

But as far as what "Weenie" said, man U have got to be joking me! DO U really think that marina that des a shi@#$! job really deserves a tip for that!!! Most yards generally do a crap job in my experience, that the boat owner could at least do themselves, for a lot less $$. They just take advantage of owner's lack of knowledge, time, & lack of competition to get away with murder. I've been through it & so have most other sailors. I think its ridiculous that U think we should bribe or tip marina owners/ repairman that are already grossly overpaid just to get the professioanl results that we are already overpaying for!!!
Give me a break. Only a marina owner or repair yard would seriously think that we could swallow that one man. I would love to hear other sailors experience with marina repairs.
I bet that at least half are unsatisfied & felt that they got ripped off. Please post whether U agree or disagree!
 
Jan 22, 2008
880
Fed up w/ personal attacks I'm done with SBO
You forget the haul out, bottom job, plus blister repair, yard fees and relaunch....
No, I didn't. I allowed $500 for the bottom job as quoted, lumped the haul fees in that (can't do the bottom without a haul). $3100 for the plumbing job, allowing $300 for materials leaves $2800 for 4 hours labor, or $700 hourly. Even at $1250 for the bottom/haul/blister job* we're looking at $2350 for the toilet work, less $300 materials leaves $2050 for 4 hours labor. That's still over $500 hourly, totally outrageous in my opinion. The finished product is a total hack job and has probably lessened the value of the boat. There's a saying that an owner who can't (or chooses not to) work on his own boat is a poor ($$) sailor.

Where do you suggest he hide the loop and valve so that it is high enough to prevent back flow and still be easily accessible...?
Loop goes in the upper cabinet, valve goes under the counter with an access door behind the toilet, two hoses to and from the loop go through the counter to the upper cabinet along side the existing vent hose. For a first yacht quality finish a cover could be fashioned for the exposed hoses (not included in my estimate because of the already exposed vent hose from the factory).

I'll repeat, don't use my estimate, rely on the surveyor.

*my last haulout was $750 for haul, prep, single coat of Trinidad and relaunch. Add their quoted $500 for blisters and you're at $1250.
 

Erieau

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Apr 3, 2009
209
Oday 25 Erieau
I'd be a bad one to ask if it's a decent job, as I like my mechanical/plumbing/electrical systems exposed. The Admiral complains that they detract from her "cottage" experience, but I'm most comfortable when I can see the systems working. Maintenance is simplified, worn out bits are easily in my face, and I never worry about system weaknesses.
In my house and in my car, renovations are aesthetically perfect and hidden. In the boat, I need the psychological comfort of being able to see the things that are keeping me afloat and comfortable.
Yes, the yard could have done a more aesthetic job, but seriously, it doesn't look that bad to me.
Joe
p.s. repair bills for anything over a thousand bucks make me sick to my stomach too.
 

weinie

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Sep 6, 2010
1,297
Jeanneau 349 port washington, ny
To Jibe, I'm assuming the $3,600 u paid is also for the bottom job included in that price?
Because that price would be ridiculous for just a head replacement. There is enough room in the cabinet located behind the head to route the vented loop. Although it may reach to a point above the waterline, it would not be above the water when healed to port. That's why its more prudent to shut off all water valves when sailing, so U don't risk flooding the boat. Sometimes its more important to have safe plumbing then beauty, & I've rarely seen a head installation that would be considered aesthetically pleasing. There is the old saying, "If you want it done right do it yourself." Plus if it doesn't turn out perfect then U are the only one to blame for it. I find that the cost savings & satisfaction of a job well done. or at least done, is worth the trouble.

But as far as what "Weenie" said, man U have got to be joking me! DO U really think that marina that des a shi@#$! job really deserves a tip for that!!! Most yards generally do a crap job in my experience, that the boat owner could at least do themselves, for a lot less $$. They just take advantage of owner's lack of knowledge, time, & lack of competition to get away with murder. I've been through it & so have most other sailors. I think its ridiculous that U think we should bribe or tip marina owners/ repairman that are already grossly overpaid just to get the professioanl results that we are already overpaying for!!!
Give me a break. Only a marina owner or repair yard would seriously think that we could swallow that one man. I would love to hear other sailors experience with marina repairs.
I bet that at least half are unsatisfied & felt that they got ripped off. Please post whether U agree or disagree!
Although I have a 27 catalina, not a 30, from the pics it looks very similar to my head. I don't think that there is enough height to have a proper loop without going above the level of the sink "cabinet". I know for a fact that my sink drain is actually below the waterline at extreme heeling angles. You could hide the vent in the sliding "cabinet? above the sink, but I don't know if there is enough room and you would still have the hoses run up through the top of the counter top into the "cabinet". In OPs pic, it looks like there already is a hose doing just that. OP also never probably never told the marina he insisted on fancy wood cabinetry and access ports to hide the plumbing, so why would the marina go through that trouble, especially on an older boat.

And sometimes, jobs do just take longer than expected. A simple faucet replacement in my house took 10 minutes. In my boat, it took almost 1/2 a day due to the lack of good access and fittings that were frozen.

BTW, I didn't suggest OP tip for this job in particular.

The purpose of tipping is that sometimes, when someone knows their work is appreciated, they do go that extra little inch. Maybe they won't charge for that $5.00 screw or maybe they won't round up to a full hour on the labor. And perhaps the quality of the job is just that much better. Its no different than tipping your waiter or bartender well and then getting welcomed with a smile the next time you come back.

Please don't get me wrong. I am not defending the marina. My point is that trust is key and with OP being 2 hours away, that is all the more difficult since he cannot observe the work being done. That makes good communication paramount.

I'm sorry if I don't take the position that all boat yard workers are thieves. I reserve that title for the lawyers. :)

It's just my opinion. As always, YMMV.
 
Feb 26, 2004
22,760
Catalina 34 224 Maple Bay, BC, Canada
You did not specify that you wanted and needed to have everything hidden. Your assumption cost you. I agree with others that having that vented loop exposed is not a bad thing. There is also more than one way to plumb a "legal" head system. Are you aware of that?

The cost breakdown is ridiculous based on your discussion.

If I were a judge, I'd throw out your claim due to the lack of specificity on location (assuming that the ONLY thing you told him was in your first post).

Why people continue to go into boatyards, give no specific instructions, get no written estimates, leave for two weeks and don't call in themselves, and then blame the boatyards, is beyond me.
 
Jan 22, 2008
880
Fed up w/ personal attacks I'm done with SBO
Stu is, of course, right.

I don't have these problems because any hired work on my boat, house, car or whatever is discussed and agreed upon in advance down to the smallest detail. If a time and material arrangement is demanded there will be a not to exceed price attached or I'm outta there. I still think they took advantage of the situation and for me, their work is abominable.
 
Apr 30, 2006
12
- - Benicia, CA
Thanks for all your responses except the one about treating my relationship with a boat yard like a marriage (sorry weinie). I took another look at the bill and the labor for the head install and 2 new thruhulls with shutoffs was $720. The parts bill is 2.5 feet long and I can't really break it down between the bottom job and head job. Total parts was $1218(trinidad red is $$$). Blister repair labor was $660 and there were about 300 small blisters. The rest was the haulout, washdown, bottom job and launch. I have learned alot from this experience. Number one is being explicit about how I want the job done or doing it myself. I don't want to play the "woman card" but that may factor into the work that was done for me. I am not sure. What I am sure of is that the boat has a legal head now and has less chance of sinking because of no "loop". I am gonna hang a beach towel over it and go sailing :) JibeMama
 
Feb 26, 2009
716
Oday 30 Anchor Yacht Club, Bristol PA
Thanks for all your responses except the one about treating my relationship with a boat yard like a marriage (sorry weinie). I took another look at the bill and the labor for the head install and 2 new thruhulls with shutoffs was $720. The parts bill is 2.5 feet long and I can't really break it down between the bottom job and head job. Total parts was $1218(trinidad red is $$$). Blister repair labor was $660 and there were about 300 small blisters. The rest was the haulout, washdown, bottom job and launch. I have learned alot from this experience. Number one is being explicit about how I want the job done or doing it myself. I don't want to play the "woman card" but that may factor into the work that was done for me. I am not sure. What I am sure of is that the boat has a legal head now and has less chance of sinking because of no "loop". I am gonna hang a beach towel over it and go sailing :) JibeMama
How the original head was plumbed can you or should I call Catalina yachts? Could have been the first question.

anyway...
You may want to talk with someone that has some basic carpentry skills. Possibly a somewhat OK looking cover could be made for the piping arrangement. Looking the pics it would seem possible. Yes, you have to be very specific with contractors! I've been one most of my life. Knowledge is power also.
Good luck!
 

mortyd

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Dec 11, 2004
952
Catalina 30 easy living
i have no idea what you mean by a legal head. a bucket is legal as long as you dump it where you are allowed. nothing overboard is legal in american coastal waters. heads are not legal illegal, captains are.
 

mortyd

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Dec 11, 2004
952
Catalina 30 easy living
stu, a short sunday cruise on long island sound can acquaint you the intelligence posssessed by the vast majority of those with the wherwithall to buy, borrow or rent a boat.
 

weinie

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Sep 6, 2010
1,297
Jeanneau 349 port washington, ny
stu, a short sunday cruise on long island sound can acquaint you the intelligence posssessed by the vast majority of those with the wherwithall to buy, borrow or rent a boat.
HEYYYYYY!!!!!:snooty:
 
Feb 26, 2004
22,760
Catalina 34 224 Maple Bay, BC, Canada
gee, morty, you have rent-a-stupids back east, too? I have not a clue where that came from regarding this topic.

Denise, Catalina and its dealers have plumbed a variety of different overboard head solutions in their boats.

The "legal" overboard differences I mentioned before were to either Y valve before the holding tank or after it. I don't understand why anyone would choose to put everything through their HTs if they didn't have to, but many people do and WM seems to like it, too. In addition, many folks have working head systems without having a vented loop on their head outlet, whether or not they go through the HT or not.
 
Apr 8, 2010
1,942
Ericson Yachts Olson 34 28400 Portland OR
Given that there is a reasonably assembly of opinions that having a "loop" is desirable, and given that head plumbing crammed inside small counter spaces is a total bi_ch to work on when new and 10 times worse when old, maybe having this vital bit of plumbing visible and accessable is not so bad. :)

As to the esthetics of it and the desire to please the Admiral with hiding the working parts of the system...
how about making a simple fitted snap-over cover out of breathable mesh fabric ( http://www.phifer.com/DesignFabrics.aspx ) or Sunbrella. Match the general color of bulkhead or counter, your choice.
Leave the handle visible.

An easy and attractive solution. If and when you next have to work on the head plumbing system, you might even be glad it's not all buried where only a demented midget can get at the parts!
:)

Cheers,
LB

ps: Stu makes some good points in his commentary in reply 18.
 
Jan 10, 2009
590
PDQ 32 Deale, MD
Pretty unimpressive for the price.

Could the work have been hidden? Can't say, don't know the boat, but unless there is a very accessible cabinet, this is stuff you should be able to get to. It might have been unavoidable, and the basic design appears to be OK. But there should have been a discussion regarding location. They may consider this normal--and it is--and it's a shame they didn't tell you that.

Materials and workmanship? Single clamps instead of double (add the second clamp, screws opposed) and the cheapest sanitation hose they could find. I would expect permeation to begin in about 5 years. Sorry. Trident 102 would be a better choice. A teak mounting board. Whoopee.

The cure? Better communication. Get involved. Ask for a sketch. Ask for a list of materials. Boats are demanding this way. For anything more complex than bottom paint, there are too many ways to do the job. Learn more DIY--with a 1980 boat, you'll need it. In 25 years, I've never used a boat yard for anything but hauling.
 
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